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Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

I did define the terms male and female, or rather provided a pathway to a set selection that would create a definition.

That definition means that trans trans people post gonadectomy are not technically male OR female.
What do mean by the terms male and female when you say that?

And what is the sex of a trans person who hasn’t undergone a gonadectomy?

"Man" and "woman", however, are social group categories, in addition to this largely being used as shorthand for whichever social role group someone finds affinity to, owing to complex aspects of how brains form. They're simply not useful categories for government purposes.
That’s not how the terms have been used by anyone until very, very recently. Before that, almost everyone used the terms to describe adult human males, and adult human females.
Yes they do. "A shit by any other name still smells as rank".
I’m confident, but not certain, that you know the square root of fuck all about Scotland, and the people behind For Women Scotland, and Scottish Lesbians.
 
Saying a woman is anyone who considers themselves a woman is hopeless.
Why is it so hard to take a woman's word for it when she tells you who and what she is? It's not the 16th century anymore, female testimony is considered valid now, no thumbscrews required.

This isn't hard for you to understand, just hard for you to accept.
 
As Emily eloquently explains, the binary of sex is well understood, and clearly defined.
Then why can't you define it effectively and convincingly? You yourself have appealed to governmental defitions, chromosomal definitions, anatomical definitions, and "feelings" in this thread alone, and are unable again and again to explain the inconsistencies that arise when trying to apply any of the above. You just say that the exceptions and ambiguities "aren't important", which is not a real answer, especially not on a question of fact rather than ideology.

The only thing you haven't tried is a religious explanation, presumably because you know your audience here, even though everyone knows perfectly where the doctrine of binary genders came from in the first place, and that it had nothing to do with any kind of science. "Male and female he made them", isn't that right? And your ancestors had to scrub an entire book from the Bible in the 2nd century just to keep trans acceptance out of it...

New millenium, same old fools. You'll argue with God, the king, the president, or a even a microscope to defend your tiny worldviews, again and again.
 
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It’s not a question of testimony, it’s a question of fact.

A person’s sex is an objective, material reality.

If someone doesn’t consider themselves to be the biological sex they are, that’s fine. But sometimes a person’s actual sex matters, regardless of how they consider themselves.
 
For the most part, for most individuals, sex is binary in terms of procreation potential. But that’s not an all inclusive way of looking at sex, whether it is an action or a way of being.
Any other way of looking at sex is ideologically driven faith, not science. Evolution doesn't give a single fuck about being inclusive, and sex is an evolutionary result.

Sex is defined based on the type of reproductive system within an anisogamous species. For ALL species that reproduce sexually (regardless of whether individuals in that species actually reproduce), there has evolved two different systems. One system evolved to support the production of small gametes, and we call individuals with that type of system males. Another different system evolved to support the production of large gametes, and we call individuals with that type of system females.

This definition of sex is universal across every single species that reproduces via the merging of two different-sized gametes. It does not require that any individual actually reproduce, it doesn't require that any individual be fertile, and it doesn't even require that every single element of a system is present or functional.

Sex is strictly binary in all anisogamous species.
Nope. You are thinking of sex as strictly a reproductive function and furthermore you are gripping hard onto that one single aspect of sex in order to make your point but at the same time, you do not so tightly embrace sex as the sole, major or even relevant factor in other aspects of being human. Women are more than child bearers and nurturers and in fact some of us never do either, out of choice or because of luck—bad or good. Men are more than sperm donators or bread winners. They may be neither by choice or by luck, good or bad.

People aren’t at all binary when it comes to sexual attraction, either.

Society has assigned a lot of roles and expectations based solely upon external genitalia.
It’s not a question of testimony, it’s a question of fact.

A person’s sex is an objective, material reality.

If someone doesn’t consider themselves to be the biological sex they are, that’s fine. But sometimes a person’s actual sex matters, regardless of how they consider themselves.
A person's sex is not always as clear cut as you wish to believe.
 
Sex, across a very wide number of species, including humans, is an evolved means of reproduction, that is binary, based on the developmental pathway evolved to produce either large or small gametes: female and male.

The actual production of said gametes is not required.

Sex is determined at fertilisation, and embryos develop down either the Müllerian or Wolffian pathway: female or male.

Every human is either male or female, something that can be objectively determined.

Adult human females are called women, and adult human males are called men.
 
A person’s sex is an objective, material reality.
Why should their sex matter more than their gender, in the application of the law? Biological sex matters to your fertility doctor, but there is no reason why a person should be forced to disclose it to anyone else. Not their business. Society is built around gender perceptions and expectations, not sex. At least not around biological sex, which most assume but few people actually know in any objective sense. Even if you were right about biological sex being strictly binary (though of course you are not) it would still be the case that interpreting any law as applying exclusively to biological sex, however you define that is making new law, which as I understand it a British judge is absolutely not permitted to do. I've read this ruling through now, they don't offer any clear definition or rubric of biological sex either. In fact, the way they seem to define it is the same way you tried to define it upthread before realizing the position was indefensible and abandoning it: documentary evidence. And birth certfiicates are written by men, not genes or pheremones. Signing a document is a social exhange. By definition, only gender, not sex, can be produced by social interactions.
 
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What do mean by the terms male and female when you say that?
Have you not read the thread? I understand it's 43 pages, but you came in here insisting on definitions... GO FIND THEM.

And what is the sex of a trans person who hasn’t undergone a gonadectomy
Largely it doesn't matter because beyond a very particular effect on an egg that only happens after a huge number of other events, sperm and eggs are not behaviorally significant.

That’s not how the terms have been used by anyone until very, very recently
It's absolutely how the terms have been used throughout most of time, and the understanding most people had through most of time was just simply garbage.

I’m confident, but not certain, that you know the square root of fuck all about Scotland, and the people behind For Women Scotland, and Scottish Lesbians.
Oh I'm plenty familiar with TERFS.

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The essentialism you espouse has been broadly discussed in a number of other topics as PRATTs.

People don't develop as monoliths, and many features of human development happen separately. The whole topic is rife with this and you didn't fucking read it.
 
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A person's sex is not always as clear cut as you wish to believe.
It’s always male or female.
The last refuge of the ideologue is stamping their foot and saying "If I don't believe it, it's not true no matter how much evidence is presented to me. Everything I do believe is simple, so why doesn't everyone just agree with me?"
 
Human sex is not binary. No matter how much you wish human sex to be binary, it isn'
So saying that sex in humans is binary, and that in some circumstances female humans are entitled to spaces free from male humans, is the equivalent of being a Nazi?

That seems a little unhinged.
 
And what do you mean by the word “women” when you say that?

What does that category include/exclude?

Are you meaning “adult human females”, or “anyone who considers themselves a woman”?

Because those are different things.
Yes, they are, even though you seem to use them interchangeably.
:consternation2: Where have you ever seen him use them interchangeably?

I mean women as opposed to females. That includes women who used to men but are no longer men. That includes anyone who seriously and truthfully considers themselves a woman. It does not include males pretending to be women for ulterior purposes.
That's a circular definition.
Show you work.
 
Saying that doesn't make it true.

The reason to select a black woman is because of what happened in the past. That's revenge. Period.

I am for including everyone. But look at Toni's words 5 quotes up--that's about excluding white males.
You see justice as revenge.

You see for one time! ONE SINGLE FUCKING TIME purposefully choosing from among a group of highly competent, highly qualified, highly accomplished black women instead of bunch of piddly ass white boys who wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without the color of their skin and what’s hanging between their legs plus their daddy’s money as…revenge?

Seriously?

What the hell do you call centuries of white men white men Uber Alles as?

Justice? Earned?

Is what all of that white boy power was supposed to do? Let women and black people know their place and that that place was cleaning up after white boys were done filling their plates? Or rather having their plates filled for them? You’re begrudging women and black people even the scraps after white boys bellies are full.

Just how much power do you think it would take to fill up that empty spot inside enough that you don’t think that giving a black woman a chance is something other than revenge?

Revenge would be burning the place down and your white ass hanging from the tree.

Women and people are just asking for their turn. A fair shot.

If it’s revenge you see then maybe, just maybe deep inside you recognize the injustice done to people who do not look like you for the sin of not looking like you.

That fear of revenge is maybe a tiny shred of guilt because you know it’s never been fair and you’re afraid that women and black folks—never mind a black woman—want to do to you what your kind has been doing to them all of these years.

That’s the thing about not being consumed with maintaining a position that you only have because the odds and the laws were always written to hand you the edge and not because you all the way earned it. You don’t really have confidence. Bullies don’t. They know they don’t deserve their power and they’re scared of what happens if they lose it. They’re scared their victims will take revenge the bullies believe they deserve.

Here’s the thing:

The best revenge is living your own life and letting those it bothers drown in their own hate and insecurity.
You are doing nothing to dispel the notion that it's revenge. You speak of taking turns--but there are no turns. Each person faces it once. The only way you can take turns is by lumping people with those who share some attribute. And that's discrimination.

I do not believe in <insert group> rights. Rights are possessed by individuals. And it's just as wrong to exclude someone because they are white as because they are black.
 
So saying that sex in humans is binary, and that in some circumstances female humans are entitled to spaces free from male humans, is the equivalent of being a Nazi?

That seems a little unhinged.
It doesn't make you a Nazi, but within our current political system, it necessarily puts you in bed with them. If not for the rise of neo-fascism, we would not be having this conversation to begin with. This and immigration are the wedge issues they have chosen to use to break the spine of the centrist left, and you've fallen for the gambit hook, line, and sinker.
 
no biologist who isn't on drugs is going to tell you that ants and bees have more than two sexes
One just did. :rolleyesa:

Of course, it depends on having a less strict definition of what constitutes a sex than yours; But that's the entire fucking point. Your "strict binary" definition is not particularly useful; There are very few situations in which lumping worker ants in with queens, and separate from aners, is more useful than putting them into a third category, but biologists tend to do so because they are used to doing so - it's a habit, not a fact about ants.
 
The last refuge of the ideologue is stamping their foot and saying "If I don't believe it, it's not true no matter how much evidence is presented to me. Everything I do believe is simple, so why doesn't everyone just agree with me?"
What’s the evidence to the contrary?
 
Human sex is not binary. No matter how much you wish human sex to be binary, it isn'
So saying that sex in humans is binary, and that in some circumstances female humans are entitled to spaces free from male humans, is the equivalent of being a Nazi?

That seems a little unhinged.
Not as unhinged as stomping one's foot and claiming a falsehood is a fact.
 
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