Londonistan, Eurabia

[The Paul]

Jesus Derec, stop being a child and admit that you are probably overreacting. Ever stop to think that most people dont care if they don't get the pork choice? If I was to get a turkey sandwich why would I care if its in a halal store or not?

I know it might seem like not a big deal but I view it as more of a camel's nose in the tent. The thing is that if a vocal minority demands a restaurant must be "halal only" and the majority, out of fear of being branded "islamphobes", do not say or do anything then what can be expected is that more and more restaurants will be pressured to islamicize, and people will have progressively fewer choices.

Well, to be completely fair the fear that you would be branded an Islamophobe for objecting to the existence of Halal food is probably justified.

 

[Jokodo]

Bigotry is a two way gig. Its also bigotry to expect non muslims yo not eat pork.

Nobody's expecting non-Muslims not to eat pork. At best, some costumers are grossed out when they see the guy next to them is getting pork. Is that a rational reaction? Probably not, but it's entirely understandable, and it will affect sales, so it is entirely rational for the owners of the outlet to consider adapting. Pressure by fundamentalists, or anybody expecting of anybody else what to eat or not to eat doesn't enter the equation.

Take the horse meat analogy again: When it comes to horse meat, there are at least four types of people:
A) those who are so much into it that they'll stop frequenting your stall if it doesn't offer horse leberkäse.
B) those who'd likely pick it if it's on the menue, but don't aren't particularly bothered if they have to take a pork or beef product when it isn't.
C) those who aren't going to eat it but otherwise don't care
D) those who are grossed and loose their appetite out when they see someone other order it and realise that the knife that's going to cut their stuff has been used to cut horse meat.

If group (D) is larger than group (A), it pays off to take horse meat off the menue - without anybody pressurising anybody.

Now, when it comes to pork ... well, just copy paste the above and change a few words accordingly.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well, to be completely fair the fear that you would be branded an Islamophobe for objecting to the existence of Halal food is probably justified.

Hey, what? Just because the ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION for this change is that a large corporation is being hassled by Muslims
(or, it's a simple case of pure capitalism)
then his seeing Islam where Islam is clearly involved isn't Islamophobia, it's just 'paying attention.' (unless some Muslim wrote the tune 'money makes the world go 'round.'?)

 

[angelo]

When in Rome! The idea that cultural backward group can migrate to a western nation then expect the natives to bend to their likes and dislikes. If my restaurant serves pork you don't have to order pork, but don't expect my regulars to stop eating pork because it offends your sensibilities which are purely religious anyway.

 

[steve_bnk]

If I had a restaurant and the community had a big enoughpopulation of Muslims I would consider offering compliant meals if the demand was there.



Same if it were immigrants from the Caribbean or elsewhere. Business exists to serve the community. The old American Jim Crow environment excluded blacks from white restaurants.



I am not generally anti religion or anti Muslim. Everybody has theright of beliefs and free association.

 

[angelo]

If I had a restaurant and the community had a big enoughpopulation of Muslims I would consider offering compliant meals if the demand was there.



Same if it were immigrants from the Caribbean or elsewhere. Business exists to serve the community. The old American Jim Crow environment excluded blacks from white restaurants.



I am not generally anti religion or anti Muslim. Everybody has theright of beliefs and free association.

You would stop serving pork because it may offend some crazies?

 

[steve_bnk]

If I had a restaurant and the community had a big enoughpopulation of Muslims I would consider offering compliant meals if the demand was there.



Same if it were immigrants from the Caribbean or elsewhere. Business exists to serve the community. The old American Jim Crow environment excluded blacks from white restaurants.



I am not generally anti religion or anti Muslim. Everybody has theright of beliefs and free association.

You would stop serving pork because it may offend some crazies?

I would not take pork off the menu.

 

[angelo]

If I had a restaurant and the community had a big enoughpopulation of Muslims I would consider offering compliant meals if the demand was there.



Same if it were immigrants from the Caribbean or elsewhere. Business exists to serve the community. The old American Jim Crow environment excluded blacks from white restaurants.



I am not generally anti religion or anti Muslim. Everybody has theright of beliefs and free association.

You would stop serving pork because it may offend some crazies?

I would not take pork off the menu.

My apologies if I got your response arse about.

 

[Jokodo]

When in Rome! The idea that cultural backward group can migrate to a western nation then expect the natives to bend to their likes and dislikes. If my restaurant serves pork you don't have to order pork, but don't expect my regulars to stop eating pork because it offends your sensibilities which are purely religious anyway.

If costumers are grossed out by the guy next to them eating {pork, horse meat}, they'll vote with there feet, and that'll hurt sales. If there are more costumers are grossed out than there are those who won't eat anything else, it may pay off to take it off the menue. It's simple supply and demand, and nobody's expecting anybody to stop eating anything, people just go where they enjoy there meals most. And whether the sensibilities are purely religious doesn't alter the equation (I would argue, though, that the Anglo-Saxon abhorrence of horse meat is for all practical purposes religious too).

 

[angelo]

To each his/hers own. Where I draw the line is interference by religious nut jobs on what I may or may not eat.

 

[Jokodo]

To each his/hers own. Where I draw the line is interference by religious nut jobs on what I may or may not eat.

Than you're in the wrong thread. This is a thread about a reteller adjusting his sortiment to demand.

 

[angelo]

No one knows about service and demand like I do. I spent over 35 years supplying restaurateurs and supermarkets as a food wholesale salesman. A chain like Subway works to a proven formula, that's what the franchisee pays big money to the franchisor for. They also buy their supplies from a franchisor nominated supplier. All Subway stores carry ham. If a store is located in a predominately moslem or Jewish community ham should still be carried for those who demand the product. Mainly non Jewish or moslems.
What my gripe is that an imman, or sheik or rabbi or whatever has no right to tell the store what he can or cannot sell. You don't want ham, then don't buy it!

 

[Jokodo]

No one knows about service and demand like I do. I spent over 35 years supplying restaurateurs and supermarkets as a food wholesale salesman. A chain like Subway works to a proven formula, that's what the franchisee pays big money to the franchisor for. They also buy their supplies from a franchisor nominated supplier. All Subway stores carry ham. If a store is located in a predominately moslem or Jewish community ham should still be carried for those who demand the product. Mainly non Jewish or moslems.
What my gripe is that an imman, or sheik or rabbi or whatever has no right to tell the store what he can or cannot sell. You don't want ham, then don't buy it!

If you have any evidence that an "imman [sic!], or sheik [sic!] or rabbi or whatever" has told the store what they can or cannot sell, please come forward with it. According to all the information we've seen so far, the store decided to change their products on the assumption that that'd improve sales.

So once again, wrong thread. That, or back up your contention.

 

[angelo]

No one knows about service and demand like I do. I spent over 35 years supplying restaurateurs and supermarkets as a food wholesale salesman. A chain like Subway works to a proven formula, that's what the franchisee pays big money to the franchisor for. They also buy their supplies from a franchisor nominated supplier. All Subway stores carry ham. If a store is located in a predominately moslem or Jewish community ham should still be carried for those who demand the product. Mainly non Jewish or moslems.
What my gripe is that an imman, or sheik or rabbi or whatever has no right to tell the store what he can or cannot sell. You don't want ham, then don't buy it!

If you have any evidence that an "imman [sic!], or sheik [sic!] or rabbi or whatever" has told the store what they can or cannot sell, please come forward with it. According to all the information we've seen so far, the store decided to change their products on the assumption that that'd improve sales.

So once again, wrong thread. That, or back up your contention.

Did it improve his/hers sales?

 

[Derec]

Than you're in the wrong thread. This is a thread about a reteller adjusting his sortiment to demand.

Nope. It's pressure by a vocal minority that not only demands choices that fit their particular superstition, but also that no other choices be offered to anyone.

But Subway is not the only case of islamification of food in Britain.
Parents fury as pork sausages are banned from the school menu and replaced with halal meat
The school officials say the move was to make the menu more "inclusive" which is truly Orwellian newspeak - making everyone adhere to exclusive religious preferences of one group and calling it "inclusive".

 

[Derec]

Well, to be completely fair the fear that you would be branded an Islamophobe for objecting to the existence of Halal food is probably justified.

Well there are good reasons to object to halal food (animal welfare).
However, this thread is not about me objecting to halal food being offered. It's about Muslims objecting that anything but halal food be offered at a Western restaurant.
And it's not even a majority Muslim area. As I said before, only 5% of Bristol is Muslim. Now I found data on one of the parts of Bristol where the islamified Subway is located - Easton and it is only 15% Mulslim. Again, pressure by a vocal minority.

 

[Jokodo]

No one knows about service and demand like I do. I spent over 35 years supplying restaurateurs and supermarkets as a food wholesale salesman. A chain like Subway works to a proven formula, that's what the franchisee pays big money to the franchisor for. They also buy their supplies from a franchisor nominated supplier. All Subway stores carry ham. If a store is located in a predominately moslem or Jewish community ham should still be carried for those who demand the product. Mainly non Jewish or moslems.
What my gripe is that an imman, or sheik or rabbi or whatever has no right to tell the store what he can or cannot sell. You don't want ham, then don't buy it!

If you have any evidence that an "imman [sic!], or sheik [sic!] or rabbi or whatever" has told the store what they can or cannot sell, please come forward with it. According to all the information we've seen so far, the store decided to change their products on the assumption that that'd improve sales.

So once again, wrong thread. That, or back up your contention.

Did it improve his/hers sales?

We don't know. Probably he doesn't know either yet and is in the process of finding out as we speak.

 

[Jokodo]

Than you're in the wrong thread. This is a thread about a reteller adjusting his sortiment to demand.

Nope. It's pressure by a vocal minority that not only demands choices that fit their particular superstition, but also that no other choices be offered to anyone.
<snip>

If by "demand", you mean "prefer to eat their food at a place where they enjoy it more", then yes.
Capitalism implies consumers have the right to patronise whatever shop they want without asking for rational reasons for their choice, and shopkeeper the right to react to consumer choices.

Doesn't it feel strange that to you that I'd defend the market libertarian position, and you the "communist" one, on this issue?

 

[Derec]

Than you're in the wrong thread. This is a thread about a reteller adjusting his sortiment to demand.

Nope. It's pressure by a vocal minority that not only demands choices that fit their particular superstition, but also that no other choices be offered to anyone.
<snip>

If by "demand", you mean "prefer to eat their food at a place where they enjoy it more", then yes.
Capitalism implies consumers have the right to patronise whatever shop they want without asking for rational reasons for their choice, and shopkeeper the right to react to consumer choices.

Doesn't it feel strange that to you that I'd defend the market libertarian position, and you the "communist" one, on this issue?

What evidence do you have that the decision was a "market libertarian" one? Given the small percentage of Muslims (and thus the very limited size of the halal market) it is much more likely vocal pressure that they caved to.

 

[Jokodo]

Than you're in the wrong thread. This is a thread about a reteller adjusting his sortiment to demand.

Nope. It's pressure by a vocal minority that not only demands choices that fit their particular superstition, but also that no other choices be offered to anyone.
<snip>

If by "demand", you mean "prefer to eat their food at a place where they enjoy it more", then yes.
Capitalism implies consumers have the right to patronise whatever shop they want without asking for rational reasons for their choice, and shopkeeper the right to react to consumer choices.

Doesn't it feel strange that to you that I'd defend the market libertarian position, and you the "communist" one, on this issue?

What evidence do you have that the decision was a "market libertarian" one? Given the small percentage of Muslims (and thus the very limited size of the halal market) it is much more likely vocal pressure that they caved to.

The number of Muslims isn't all that matters for the demand equation.

When it comes to pork (or non-halal meat), there's at least four types of people:

A) those who loose their appetite when it's consumed next to them, and vote with their feet be eating somewhere else (their good right in a free market)
B) those who don't eat it, but otherwise don't care
C) those who it when it's available, but will gladly take turkey when it isn't
D) those who will go elsewhere when it becomes unavailable.

All it takes for going off pork to become a good economical move is a larger potential gain in type A costumers than what you're going to loose in type D costumers. This can be the case even when > 90% of the potential costumers fall into category C.