Looks Like Cosby May Walk

[Toni]

It's not 'drugging yourself' if you are misled as to the strength and nature of the pills you ingest.

I just don't share your attachment to victimhood.

If you ask for drugs that's on you to determine if you want to take them.
I still see the basic argument here as "She's a woman. Of course she can't take responsibility for her decisions."

I don't buy that. Might have been a reasonable assumption a century ago, but it isn't now and hasn't been for a long while.
Tom

The issue is that you can be misled as to what you are taking. Ask for an aspirin and most people will simply swallow what is offered. Which may be just fine. Or it may be something totally different than you thought you were getting.

Here, you are celebrating Cosby getting out of prison despite his responsibility for raping a woman that he had drugged without her knowledge or consent. And conflating taking drugs with consenting to penetration.


I would have thought you would have outgrown those attituded along with adolescence, but I guess not.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok so now I think you're missing the part where no one here claimed all women are victims. You seem to be arguing with someone not on this messageboard or just using women as a shield for your bullshit argument.

I was trying to talk about this one case. Other posters started bringing up other cases.

Tom

But you're not. You're saying that accepting a pill to calm your nerves is the same thing as agreeing to be penetrated.

Women who want sex do not need to take drugs or get drunk to relax themselves enough to do it.

Well... there could be some exceptions.

Show

 

[Gospel]

Ok so now I think you're missing the part where no one here claimed all women are victims. You seem to be arguing with someone not on this messageboard or just using women as a shield for your bullshit argument.

I was trying to talk about this one case. Other posters started bringing up other cases.

Tom

But you're not. You're saying that accepting a pill to calm your nerves is the same thing as agreeing to be penetrated.

Women who want sex do not need to take drugs or get drunk to relax themselves enough to do it.

The drug in question was indeed widely and wilfully used during the 70's & '80s for sex. It's not a stretch to suggests that some women may have consented to its use in conjunction with penetration. It was also used for rape. I just don't believe consent was the case with Cosby 100% of the time. Especially since his lawyer leaped to the rescue when asked if he administered it to anyone without their consent. A simple no would have helped his case tremendously, why dive in front of a nonexistent bullet?

 

[blastula]

Mr. Cosby did not drug his victims with their permission

I'm only talking about the Constand case.

Cosby didn't drug her at all.
Constand asked for drugs, Cosby supplied some, Constand decided to take them.

That isn't drugging anyone without permission. Constand drugged herself.

I can understand why.
Tom

She never said she asked for any drugs nor that she believed she was taking anything like quaaludes. But even if she had, and they paralyzed her as she said, it's still rape.

 

[Toni]

But you're not. You're saying that accepting a pill to calm your nerves is the same thing as agreeing to be penetrated.

Women who want sex do not need to take drugs or get drunk to relax themselves enough to do it.

Well... there could be some exceptions.

Show

View attachment 34332

Like I said, women who want sex do not need to take drugs or get drunk to relax themselves enough to do it.

 

[Toni]

But you're not. You're saying that accepting a pill to calm your nerves is the same thing as agreeing to be penetrated.

Women who want sex do not need to take drugs or get drunk to relax themselves enough to do it.

The drug in question was indeed widely and wilfully used during the 70's & '80s for sex. It's not a stretch to suggests that some women may have consented to its use in conjunction with penetration. It was also used for rape. I just don't believe consent was the case with Cosby 100% of the time. Especially since his lawyer leaped to the rescue when asked if he administered it to anyone without their consent. A simple no would have helped his case tremendously, why dive in front of a nonexistent bullet?

Even Crosby does not allege that she said yeah, let's get it on and btw do you have any 'ludes for me to help me get into it.

This is a vastly different situation than when a couple mutually decide that one or both of them will take something to enhance the experience. This was a case of someone not knowing what she was being given and not anticipating that this would be a prelude to any sort of sexual contact.

 

[TomC]

She didn't 'ask for drugs.'

Yeah she did. It's in the court testimony. Cosby offered her quaaludes and she took them.
Tom

 

[TomC]

She never said she asked for any drugs

Yes she did. It's in the court records.

It's hard to carry on a conversation with posters who assert things that are demonstrably false.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

She never said she asked for any drugs

Yes she did. It's in the court records.

It's hard to carry on a conversation with posters who assert things that are demonstrably false.
Tom

WOOOOT! Someone was wrong about something so therefore I'm right about everything. Do the court records also show she said yes to the sex?

 

[blastula]

She never said she asked for any drugs

Yes she did. It's in the court records.

Cite a transcript then.

 

[Emily Lake]

I think the whole drugging them aspect puts it over the line from opportunist to rapist though.

According to the court records I read at the time, Constand took the drugs on her own. She said she had a headache and asked Cosby for something. He offered her quaaludes, and she took them.
That isn't the same as "Cosby drugged Constand". She drugged herself. Quite understandable, if you've decided to bang Cosby hoping for a career boost. I'm gay, find black men kinda hot, but I'd still want drugs before I banged Cosby.
Tom

Admittedly, I haven't been following this in great detail, but I was under the impression that it was multiple women on many occasions and that the drugs weren't all self-administered.

But like I said, I haven't done any real looking into it, and most news is hyperbolized these days... and I get a lot of this kind of news from people posting on discussion forums, so "reliability" isn't a term I'd use for anything I know on this topic.

 

[Emily Lake]

Except, drugs. I haven't given women drugs before sex. I don't think I'm an outlier regarding that.

I've taken drugs provided by my partner before sex. All voluntary and consensual.

 

[TomC]

I was under the impression that it was multiple women on many occasions and that the drugs weren't all self-administered.

I keep trying to talk about the one case for which there are court records. That's Constand.

There are also many unsupported and uninvestigated allegations. Maybe some are true. Maybe not. Maybe Cosby is the victim of the new culture, "Men accused are guilty of rape are guilty until they prove the negative. Prove that they are not guilty of the crime they've been accused of."

Just because multiple people make claims doesn't mean the claims are true. I don't care how many people claim that Obama is a Kenyan, ineligible to be POTUS. It's not plausible and nobody has any credible evidence for the claim. I'm uninclined to believe the assertions.
Tom

 

[blastula]

Still waiting on that citation, Tom.

While we're waiting, here's the source for my claim.

https://www.montcopa.org/ArchiveCenter/ViewFile/Item/4554

Start with page 59.

She never said she asked for any drugs nor that she believed she was taking anything like quaaludes.

 

[Toni]

She didn't 'ask for drugs.'

Yeah she did. It's in the court testimony. Cosby offered her quaaludes and she took them.
Tom

That’s not asking for drugs. He offered. She accepted. At no time did she ask for sex or agree to sex. Frankly, very few young women expect anything sexual to happen when talking with someone their father or grandfather’s age.

Don’t believe me? Close your eyes and imagine being propositioned by your grandmother.

 

[TomC]

At no time did she ask for sex or agree to sex.

I don't find you a particularly impressive mind reader. Which is what you're doing here.

You're claiming to know what Constand was thinking and why she decided what she did. I don't find you a credible source on that.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I'm only talking about the Constand case.

Cosby didn't drug her at all.
Constand asked for drugs, Cosby supplied some, Constand decided to take them.

That isn't drugging anyone without permission. Constand drugged herself.

I can understand why.
Tom

Ms Constand was misled about the dosage - one cannot rationally say she gave permission.

Again, what is the point of minimizing Mr. Cosby's behavior/actions?

Honesty? Truth? Personal responsibility? Empowering women?

Mr. Cosby raped women, including this one by incapacitating their ability to consent. The only women your minimization of Mr. Cosby's behavior are women rapists.

If you're claiming that women can't take responsibility for their decisions, then why do you think that they should have the freedom to make them?
Tom

Bravo. That non-sequitur is a page right out of the rape apologist kit (just like your minimization of Mr. Cosby's reprehensible behavior).

Finally, Mr. Cosby was found guilty of rape. He was freed on a procedural error, not on the facts of his crime. Really, you are simply providing apologetics for a rapist.

 

[Toni]

I was under the impression that it was multiple women on many occasions and that the drugs weren't all self-administered.

I keep trying to talk about the one case for which there are court records. That's Constand.

There are also many unsupported and uninvestigated allegations. Maybe some are true. Maybe not. Maybe Cosby is the victim of the new culture, "Men accused are guilty of rape are guilty until they prove the negative. Prove that they are not guilty of the crime they've been accused of."

Just because multiple people make claims doesn't mean the claims are true. I don't care how many people claim that Obama is a Kenyan, ineligible to be POTUS. It's not plausible and nobody has any credible evidence for the claim. I'm uninclined to believe the assertions.
Tom

Nobody is saying that Cosby is guilty of rape because a bunch of women accused him of rape. People are saying that Cosby raped Costard because we believe her testimony that she thought he was giving her something homeopathic and mild, he knew she didn’t use any medication so any effect would be stronger than if she habitually used qualified—and he gave her three. He had to have known that she would be rendered helpless—and indeed counted on it. Nothing in their relationship to that point had hinted at sex. Why would she think this guy wanted to have sex?

I grew up listening to Cosby’s stories of his childhood. I loved The Cosby Show and I honestly believed that Bill Cosby was a version of Cliff Huxtable. The last thing I wanted was to believe that Cosby was capable of any sort of assault at all. Ever. But reading that transcript, hearing all the women testify. It’s hard to not believe that he’s a creep and a rapist.

 

[Artemus]

I was under the impression that it was multiple women on many occasions and that the drugs weren't all self-administered.

I keep trying to talk about the one case for which there are court records. That's Constand.

There are also many unsupported and uninvestigated allegations. Maybe some are true. Maybe not. Maybe Cosby is the victim of the new culture, "Men accused are guilty of rape are guilty until they prove the negative. Prove that they are not guilty of the crime they've been accused of."

Just because multiple people make claims doesn't mean the claims are true. I don't care how many people claim that Obama is a Kenyan, ineligible to be POTUS. It's not plausible and nobody has any credible evidence for the claim. I'm uninclined to believe the assertions.
Tom

Nobody is saying that Cosby is guilty of rape because a bunch of women accused him of rape. People are saying that Cosby raped Costard because we believe her testimony that she thought he was giving her something homeopathic and mild, he knew she didn’t use any medication so any effect would be stronger than if she habitually used qualified—and he gave her three. He had to have known that she would be rendered helpless—and indeed counted on it. Nothing in their relationship to that point had hinted at sex. Why would she think this guy wanted to have sex?

I'm saying that he is guilty of rape because, per the verdict of a jury of his peers, the prosecution presented sufficient evidence to demonstrate guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The validity of the evidence is not in question, just its admissibility. He is guilty.

 

[TomC]

I'm saying that he is guilty of rape because, per the verdict of a jury of his peers, the prosecution presented sufficient evidence to demonstrate guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I understand your trust in the USA judiciary system.

But before you get that trusting, you might want to Google "The Innocence Project". Lots of people were convicted by juries, and then proven innocent.

Jus' Sayin'
Tom