Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[ZiprHead]

But males are now being asked about pregnancy status because the NHS has been institutionally captured by trans advocates. Not because males can become pregnant. Not because the previous question missed some people who were pregnant. Not because it makes any medical sense. Solely because trans advocates want it that way.

Citation, please, or is this just a reasoning you brought forth from your hind quarters?

My citation is falsedichotomy.com

Hindquarters it is then.

 

[Jarhyn]

So for the reason deprived:

If you are going by "birth certificate" declarations, which few people have ever not, in the broad history of our planet, "male" and "female" are a classification on the basis of genital appearance.

Putting "male" on a chart, on that basis, is describing genitals implicitly.

Ergo sharing "male" rather than "cannot become pregnant" is extraneous and gratuitous.

 

[Rhea]

So, after all these pages, we are still at:

Option 1: Make sure you catch all possible pregnant persons before the pregnancy-harming procedure by asking people if they are pregnant
Option 2: Protect the feelings of anti-trans people



And there are people shouting, OBVIOUSLY OPTION 2!!!!


Asking all patients if they are pregnant is so incredibly easy but one gay guy in Australia thinks it’s the devil’s work and should be stopped.

Self-centered?

 

[Metaphor]

So, after all these pages, we are still at:

Option 1: Make sure you catch all possible pregnant persons before the pregnancy-harming procedure by asking people if they are pregnant
Option 2: Protect the feelings of anti-trans people

No, we are not 'still at' that.

You are 'still at' that.

The Trust already had option 1 in practise before they changed their procedure to include people who cannot become pregnant in their questioning. This was done not because anybody had ever been missed but because the NHS has been institutionally captured.

And there are people shouting, OBVIOUSLY OPTION 2!!!!


Asking all patients if they are pregnant is so incredibly easy but one gay guy in Australia thinks it’s the devil’s work and should be stopped.

Self-centered?

The 'devil's work'? When have I said anything like that?

 

[Metaphor]

So for the reason deprived:

If you are going by "birth certificate" declarations, which few people have ever not, in the broad history of our planet, "male" and "female" are a classification on the basis of genital appearance.

Putting "male" on a chart, on that basis, is describing genitals implicitly.

Ergo sharing "male" rather than "cannot become pregnant" is extraneous and gratuitous.

All people admitted to hospital have their sex recorded.

If you think that is extraneous and gratuitous, I suggest you never get admitted to hospital.

 

[Toni]

So, after all these pages, we are still at:

Option 1: Make sure you catch all possible pregnant persons before the pregnancy-harming procedure by asking people if they are pregnant
Option 2: Protect the feelings of anti-trans people

No, we are not 'still at' that.

You are 'still at' that.

The Trust already had option 1 in practise before they changed their procedure to include people who cannot become pregnant in their questioning. This was done not because anybody had ever been missed but because the NHS has been institutionally captured.

And there are people shouting, OBVIOUSLY OPTION 2!!!!


Asking all patients if they are pregnant is so incredibly easy but one gay guy in Australia thinks it’s the devil’s work and should be stopped.

Self-centered?

The 'devil's work'? When have I said anything like that?

I've never heard of anyone becoming pregnant in anyone's questioning.

 

[laughing dog]

I expect hat if I were asked if I were pregnant when I went to the doctor's or hospital, I would mot likely find it amusing, unless I was in a bad mood, in which case I would find it annoying,. But in both instances, that feeling would fleeting, and I would move on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How does asking only females about their pregnancy possibility harm the mental health and well being of 'gender nonconforming' people?

The point of the measure is to make sure not to miss asking someone about pregnancy because they don't appear capable of being pregnant.

 

[Metaphor]

How does asking only females about their pregnancy possibility harm the mental health and well being of 'gender nonconforming' people?

The point of the measure is to make sure not to miss asking someone about pregnancy because they don't appear capable of being pregnant.

The previous policy already did that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not talking about mental health. I'm saying that it is not always obvious whether someone is male or female. Period. Full stop.
Having a standard set of patient questions helps avoid any mistakes.

Extending on this: Let's consider a concept from the programming world: Cyclomatic complexity. Basically, how many possible scenarios there are. Us programmers aim to minimize it because we understand that errors come from choices.

if (Patient.GetSex() == Sex.Female)
   AskAboutPregnancy();

is more complex than

AskAboutPregnancy();

The former has more decision points and more room for mistakes (Patient.GetSex() is non-trivial in many edge cases) and takes at least as long as simply asking.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Your mileage may vary, Arctish, but some men would find the implication that they are indistinguishable from women insulting.

EDIT: Of course, trans advocates are perpetually reminding us that 'misgendering' is harmful and literal violence, but I suppose the feelings of men who are not trans but get mis-sexed by this new policy simply do not count.

Nobody's getting mis-sexed. It's like the form I encountered recently--it simply asked about pregnancy. Being male doesn't make the question not fit. The answer is obvious but so what?

Non. That is not what happened. Nobody ever said they had to rely on 'impressions'. Hospitals have the age and sex of a patient on file.

Did you not notice my post earlier about my wife being asked for a pregnancy test when she was 70? That was a hospital (outpatient surgery), the nurse asking for it had her file in hand--it's just they went on appearance rather than looking through the file. What if it was my SIL instead who has had multiple encounters with women who didn't think she belonged in the women's room?

You appear to believe that the previous question relied on medical personnel assuming the sex of their patients. There is no evidence whatever that they did that, but even if they did, there is no evidence whatever that this led to some females being missed from being asked the question.

The reality is mistakes happen. You set the system up to minimize them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The real question is why people keep demanding that random strangers know this data about other random strangers when they have no need of it.

A person about to photograph your innards isn't a random stranger.

Not random, but they are a stranger.

The last person to photograph my innards had zero need to know what genitals I have nor would what she was doing have revealed them. Now, I don't care if she knew but some people would care. IIRC she didn't even ask--just the standard birthdate and name bit. I would have gotten the lead blanket in either case.

 

[Metaphor]

Nobody's getting mis-sexed. It's like the form I encountered recently--it simply asked about pregnancy. Being male doesn't make the question not fit. The answer is obvious but so what?

This isn't a form, as I've said approximately one million times. It's a question asked verbally to people about to get imaging done. It used to be asked only of females, and is still asked only of females in other NHS Trusts.

Did you not notice my post earlier about my wife being asked for a pregnancy test when she was 70? That was a hospital (outpatient surgery), the nurse asking for it had her file in hand--it's just they went on appearance rather than looking through the file. What if it was my SIL instead who has had multiple encounters with women who didn't think she belonged in the women's room?

What if it was? If your sister-in-law is female, she should be asked if she could be pregnant. I assume hospitals record the sex of patients, even in America.

The reality is mistakes happen. You set the system up to minimize them.

The system was already set up like that. The hospital asked all females if they were pregnant. The change was the result of trans-affirmation policy, not any defects in the previous policy.

 

[Metaphor]

The real question is why people keep demanding that random strangers know this data about other random strangers when they have no need of it.

A person about to photograph your innards isn't a random stranger.

Not random, but they are a stranger.

The last person to photograph my innards had zero need to know what genitals I have nor would what she was doing have revealed them. Now, I don't care if she knew but some people would care. IIRC she didn't even ask--just the standard birthdate and name bit. I would have gotten the lead blanket in either case.

Please don't provide cover for Jarhyn's genital fixation. Revealing your sex is not revealing your genitals. Sex is not genitals. Indeed, some trans people change the look of their genitals yet they remain the same sex, because mammals cannot change sex.

And yes, the person who photographed your innards did not ask about your pregnancy status, because she knew your sex to be male.

 

[Arctish]

The reality is mistakes happen. You set the system up to minimize them.

The system was already set up like that. The hospital asked all females if they were pregnant. The change was the result of trans-affirmation policy, not any defects in the previous policy.

How do you know the hospital asked all females? How do you know the hospital never asked males? What did the hospital do when intersex individuals were about to undergo one of the procedures the law was referring to?

Your arguments are based on the assumption that females were never overlooked, males were never incorrectly identified, and that it's so insulting to males to be treated exactly the same as females that hospital policies must always differentiate between the sexes even when it's more efficient to just ask everyone the same set of questions.

 

[Metaphor]

The reality is mistakes happen. You set the system up to minimize them.

The system was already set up like that. The hospital asked all females if they were pregnant. The change was the result of trans-affirmation policy, not any defects in the previous policy.

How do you know the hospital asked all females? How do you know the hospital never asked males? What did the hospital do when intersex individuals were about to undergo one of the procedures the law was referring to?

The previous policy, as is the current policy in other NHS Trust hospitals, is to ask females.

I do not know that the hospital always asked all females or that males were never asked, but if there had been some sort of problem with females going unasked I assume that would have been mentioned.

'Intersex' individuals are still either male or female.

Your arguments are based on the assumption that females were never overlooked, males were never incorrectly identified, and that it's so insulting to males to be treated exactly the same as females that hospital policies must always differentiate between the sexes even when it's more efficient to just ask everyone the same set of questions.

No, my arguments need no such assumptions, and I have specifically corrected you on your last point before. I have never said hospital questions must always differentiate by sex - that is a concoction you have formulated from whole cloth and now have falsely repeated. Please stop it.

 

[Arctish]

The reality is mistakes happen. You set the system up to minimize them.

The system was already set up like that. The hospital asked all females if they were pregnant. The change was the result of trans-affirmation policy, not any defects in the previous policy.

How do you know the hospital asked all females? How do you know the hospital never asked males? What did the hospital do when intersex individuals were about to undergo one of the procedures the law was referring to?

The previous policy, as is the current policy in other NHS Trust hospitals, is to ask females.

I do not know that the hospital always asked all females or that males were never asked, but if there had been some sort of problem with females going unasked I assume that would have been mentioned.

'Intersex' individuals are still either male or female.

Your arguments are based on the assumption that females were never overlooked, males were never incorrectly identified, and that it's so insulting to males to be treated exactly the same as females that hospital policies must always differentiate between the sexes even when it's more efficient to just ask everyone the same set of questions.

No, my arguments need no such assumptions, and I have specifically corrected you on your last point before. I have never said hospital questions must always differentiate by sex - that is a concoction you have formulated from whole cloth and now have falsely repeated. Please stop it.

You never said hospital questions must always differentiate by sex but you've been quite vociferous in your objection to hospitals no longer doing so in this instance, and you have been a strident defender of discrimination by sex in other threads.

What I get from your posts is that you think it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to males when they are lumped in with females. It "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" if their appearance isn't enough to cause people to treat them differently if not preferentially. It "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" if males are asked the exact same questions as females in a hospital setting as though what's in their pants and chromosomes isn't important.

What exactly is "demeaning or insulting" about being asked if you are or might be pregnant before undergoing a procedure that can be very damaging to a fetus?

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm not talking about mental health. I'm saying that it is not always obvious whether someone is male or female. Period. Full stop.
Having a standard set of patient questions helps avoid any mistakes.

Extending on this: Let's consider a concept from the programming world: Cyclomatic complexity. Basically, how many possible scenarios there are. Us programmers aim to minimize it because we understand that errors come from choices.

if (Patient.GetSex() == Sex.Female)
   AskAboutPregnancy();

is more complex than

AskAboutPregnancy();

The former has more decision points and more room for mistakes (Patient.GetSex() is non-trivial in many edge cases) and takes at least as long as simply asking.

100%

 

[TSwizzle]

A symbolic struggle against reality;

 

[Metaphor]

The reality is mistakes happen. You set the system up to minimize them.

The system was already set up like that. The hospital asked all females if they were pregnant. The change was the result of trans-affirmation policy, not any defects in the previous policy.

How do you know the hospital asked all females? How do you know the hospital never asked males? What did the hospital do when intersex individuals were about to undergo one of the procedures the law was referring to?

The previous policy, as is the current policy in other NHS Trust hospitals, is to ask females.

I do not know that the hospital always asked all females or that males were never asked, but if there had been some sort of problem with females going unasked I assume that would have been mentioned.

'Intersex' individuals are still either male or female.

Your arguments are based on the assumption that females were never overlooked, males were never incorrectly identified, and that it's so insulting to males to be treated exactly the same as females that hospital policies must always differentiate between the sexes even when it's more efficient to just ask everyone the same set of questions.

No, my arguments need no such assumptions, and I have specifically corrected you on your last point before. I have never said hospital questions must always differentiate by sex - that is a concoction you have formulated from whole cloth and now have falsely repeated. Please stop it.

You never said hospital questions must always differentiate by sex but you've been quite vociferous in your objection to hospitals no longer doing so in this instance, and you have been a strident defender of discrimination by sex in other threads.

If there were ever a justification to discriminate by sex, this must surely be the apex case. By definition, no human male has ever been pregnant. There are no four sided triangles.

What I get from your posts is that you think it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to males when they are lumped in with females.

Then you have 'gotten' the wrong thing. It can be demeaning or insulting for men to be mistaken for women, unless they are deliberately trying to pass as women.

It "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" if their appearance isn't enough to cause people to treat them differently if not preferentially.

No. Stop repeating this falsehood. Just stop it. I've corrected you more than once. It can be demeaning and insulting for men to be confused as women especially if the men are not trying to pass as women. I don't know why you can't accept this. It is not about 'preferential' treatment.

Men and boys with gynecomastia are teased mercilessly for their condition. The people doing the teasing know their insults are based on the appearance of men who have a feature more typical of women. Similarly, women can be insulted by claiming they look like men.

It "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" if males are asked the exact same questions as females in a hospital setting as though what's in their pants and chromosomes isn't important.

No. Stop. Stop doing this. Stop manufacturing these falsehoods and pretending I said or implied them.

What exactly is "demeaning or insulting" about being asked if you are or might be pregnant before undergoing a procedure that can be very damaging to a fetus?

I am going to explain once more and then I'm not going to do it again.

Some men might feel very sensitive about being mistaken for women. You've given the impression that you simply do not care about the feelings of men, but I do. A man being asked if he could be pregnant could be read to mean the person asking that question thinks he looks like a woman. It could also be read to mean the person asking the question isn't paying attention to their job.