Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Metaphor]

Ah, so was the one whose work you disparaged.

FWIW, I've known some brilliant biologists.

And also one who was a creationist. And held a Ph.D. from a very good university.

Did you even bother to read it?

Because I *did* read your twitter-fest before I disagreed with it, even to the extent of pointing out the flaws in the twitterer's positions. All you've seemingly done is dismiss my source out of hand because you don't like the source.

Which I find a bit ridiculous, seeing as your source was TWITTER. Seriously, accepting twitter, and dismissing quillette because apparently you think twitter is a more reliable source?

No, I actually checked out the person who authored those tweets. I also checked out the person who authored the quillette piece as well. Both hold Ph.D.s in biology and are imminently qualified to discuss what they discuss. I *think* but am not 100% certain that Wright lost his position at a university because of his loudly voiced opinions about trans individuals but it is possible that it is not the same Wright. There are multiple persons with that name. And I also did some checking of the claims in the twitter thread, reading papers which are open access.

All of us know what the standard configuration for male and for female is. What most of us do not know is exactly, on a genetic and cellular level how closely we as individuals adhere to that standard configuration. I *think* I know about myself, given that I became pregnant very easily, carried 4/5 healthy pregnancies and delivered 4 healthy children. But I also know that I do have an unusual biological condition that is....fairly rare and was only discovered when I had an infection and they had to do some imaging. I have another more common anomaly, unrelated to the first, which is uncommon but not that uncommon. That one was discovered during routine dental x-rays.

Who knows what other weird shit I have floating around in my body? Having carried 4 pregnancies to term, I know that I likely still have some bits of my offspring's DNA and cells still in my body as does any woman who carries a pregnancy.

Very few people have a complete genetic analysis done, much less one looking for medical or genetic anomalies. Even fewer people know specifically how their genetics plays out in their individual development and function on a systemic, organ or cellular level. Few of us have any reason to wonder and fewer have access to tests to determine this.

I don't know with any kind of certainty what causes gender dysmorphia or for individuals to believe that they inhabit the wrong sex body. I seriously doubt there is a single cause. I do have tremendous sympathy for those who struggle with how they fit into the world or how they fit inside their own bodies and I believe that all people deserve to be treated with respect and consideration.

That includes transgender individuals.

Intersex conditions and differences of sexual development are a complete furphy. There are two sexes, and trans advocates do not advocate that somebody have some intersex condition in order to be gender-affirmed.

 

[Metaphor]

A better solution would be for some areas of a locker room to have private stalls and showers for individuals who might make other people uncomfortable or might be uncomfortable being exposed to the general group.

This is a disingenuous 'solution', and trans advocates would object.

Trans advocates would respond by saying 'trans women are women. You should not be offended by their female penis in your intimate spaces. It is not incumbent on trans women to cater to your phobia and prejudice. Asking trans women to dress privately indicates you believe they are not women. Trans women are women.'

When the male sex offender walked around with an erection in the women's section in the Wi Spa incident, trans advocates on Twitter, responding to somebody who said 'should my six year old daughter have to see somebody's penis in the spa?', said 'tell your six year old to stop staring at other people's genitals'.

 

[TomC]

If a bar staff ask me to show ID to buy beer, I don’t tip them. It’s fucking ridiculous, they know it’s ridiculous but more fool them for going along with it.

You are honest about that, from the get go? You tell the server, up front, "I'm not going to tip you anything."
Before you order?

If not, you're just another dishonest so-and-so. Trumpish so-and-so.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

Females can get pregnant. Males cannot. Asking males if they can get pregnant is like checking the triangle to see if it has four sides.

 

[Arctish]

Females can get pregnant. Males cannot. Asking males if they can get pregnant is like checking the triangle to see if it has four sides.

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

 

[Toni]

What dodge?

Do you imagine every nurse can immediately discern which patients might possibly be pregnant, with 100% accuracy? Particularly while the patient is clothed and awaiting exam/treatment—which, typically is when questions are asked. Do you believe that every patient knows what information is abs is not pertinent? Or that they answer accurately?

You know nothing.

When i have been hospitalized, every time nurses administer drug treatments, they scan and verify my wrist band, bed number, verify the drug, the prescription, the dosage, and verbally ask me to confirm my name and birthday. Every time.

Other patients get testy to have to repeat (what corresponds to) Keith A. Company, 9-26-62.

I was asked several times my name, year of birth, and address when I received my vaccine shots. I was asked at the entrance, at the sorting line, and just before I got the jab.

I am not against standard procedure. I am against changing standard procedure for no good reason.

Protecting the health and well being of those who are not gender conforming is 'no good reason?'

How does asking only females about their pregnancy possibility harm the mental health and well being of 'gender nonconforming' people?

I'm not talking about mental health. I'm saying that it is not always obvious whether someone is male or female. Period. Full stop.
Having a standard set of patient questions helps avoid any mistakes.

 

[Metaphor]

Females can get pregnant. Males cannot. Asking males if they can get pregnant is like checking the triangle to see if it has four sides.

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

And it's a waste of time, and is ableist, and may confuse ESL patients, and may be regarded as demeaning or insulting.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

That did not happen before the rule change.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

How do you think this hospital functioned before the rule change? It asked females under 60 whether they could be pregnant. No genital exams were involved.

 

[Metaphor]

What dodge?

Do you imagine every nurse can immediately discern which patients might possibly be pregnant, with 100% accuracy? Particularly while the patient is clothed and awaiting exam/treatment—which, typically is when questions are asked. Do you believe that every patient knows what information is abs is not pertinent? Or that they answer accurately?

You know nothing.

When i have been hospitalized, every time nurses administer drug treatments, they scan and verify my wrist band, bed number, verify the drug, the prescription, the dosage, and verbally ask me to confirm my name and birthday. Every time.

Other patients get testy to have to repeat (what corresponds to) Keith A. Company, 9-26-62.

I was asked several times my name, year of birth, and address when I received my vaccine shots. I was asked at the entrance, at the sorting line, and just before I got the jab.

I am not against standard procedure. I am against changing standard procedure for no good reason.

Protecting the health and well being of those who are not gender conforming is 'no good reason?'

How does asking only females about their pregnancy possibility harm the mental health and well being of 'gender nonconforming' people?

I'm not talking about mental health. I'm saying that it is not always obvious whether someone is male or female. Period. Full stop.
Having a standard set of patient questions helps avoid any mistakes.

How do you think the hospital functioned before this rule change?

The hospital did not ask people if they were male or female before asking this question. It has the sex of the patient on file. The sex of the patient cannot change, so, on the same form that has the patient's name, there is an 'M', or an 'F'.

Nobody that has an M needs to be asked if they are pregnant. Not once, not ever. In fact, they were not asked, before this rule change, and are still not asked in the hospitals under other NHS Trusts that have not yet been fully institutionally captured by trans demands.

 

[Arctish]

Females can get pregnant. Males cannot. Asking males if they can get pregnant is like checking the triangle to see if it has four sides.

Asking possible males if they are pregnant or intend to become pregnant takes about one second, and their answering the question takes maybe two seconds if they really have to think about it.

And it's a waste of time, and is ableist, and may confuse ESL patients, and may be regarded as demeaning or insulting.

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Doing a comprehensive genital/gonad exam before asking the questions on a pre-treatment form takes a lot longer.

That did not happen before the rule change.

But I suppose it's important to check what's in their pants and karyotypes because Kami forbid we hurt someone's feelings by not caring about their looks.

How do you think this hospital functioned before the rule change? It asked females under 60 whether they could be pregnant. No genital exams were involved.

I think there was a greater chance pregnancies were overlooked when the hospital staff relied on their impressions about the age and sex of patients when deciding which questions to ask prior to treatment. Just as there was a greater chance of underage baseball fans buying beer before the rule change to make everyone present ID.

 

[Metaphor]

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Your mileage may vary, Arctish, but some men would find the implication that they are indistinguishable from women insulting.

EDIT: Of course, trans advocates are perpetually reminding us that 'misgendering' is harmful and literal violence, but I suppose the feelings of men who are not trans but get mis-sexed by this new policy simply do not count.

But that isn't the 'crux' of my argument. It's a ludicrous change to the standard for all the reasons I've listed.

I think there was a greater chance pregnancies were overlooked when the hospital staff relied on their impressions about the age and sex

Non. That is not what happened. Nobody ever said they had to rely on 'impressions'. Hospitals have the age and sex of a patient on file.

I've been asked my name and age and address in medical settings before I have some medical procedures, and it isn't because the hospital is finding out these things for the first time. The person asking me the question knows all of these things already.

You appear to believe that the previous question relied on medical personnel assuming the sex of their patients. There is no evidence whatever that they did that, but even if they did, there is no evidence whatever that this led to some females being missed from being asked the question.

 

[Arctish]

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Your mileage may vary, Arctish, but some men would find the implication that they are indistinguishable from women insulting.

So? Some women find the implication they might be pregnant insulting. Perhaps they're sensitive about being overweight or they're young or religious or lesbian and never even considered having sex with a guy. That's not a reason to not ask.

I still don't see what the big whoop is about having a standard set of questions on a pre-treatment form given to all patients regardless of their age, sex, or reproductive status.

 

[Metaphor]

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Your mileage may vary, Arctish, but some men would find the implication that they are indistinguishable from women insulting.

So? Some women find the implication they might be pregnant insulting. Perhaps they're sensitive about being overweight or they're young or religious or lesbian and never even considered having sex with a guy. That's not a reason to not ask.

You are right, because the fact is, females can get pregnant.

I still don't see what the big whoop is about having a standard set of questions on a pre-treatment form

It isn't a pre-treatment form. It's a verbal question that was previously asked only of females. It still is asked only of females outside this particular NHS Trust hospital.

given to all patients regardless of their age, sex, or reproductive status.

There's no 'big whoop' about asking relevant questions.

But males are now being asked about pregnancy status because the NHS has been institutionally captured by trans advocates. Not because males can become pregnant. Not because the previous question missed some people who were pregnant. Not because it makes any medical sense. Solely because trans advocates want it that way.

 

[Arctish]

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Your mileage may vary, Arctish, but some men would find the implication that they are indistinguishable from women insulting.

So? Some women find the implication they might be pregnant insulting. Perhaps they're sensitive about being overweight or they're young or religious or lesbian and never even considered having sex with a guy. That's not a reason to not ask.

You are right, because the fact is, females can get pregnant.

I still don't see what the big whoop is about having a standard set of questions on a pre-treatment form

It isn't a pre-treatment form. It's a verbal question that was previously asked only of females. It still is asked only of females outside this particular NHS Trust hospital.

given to all patients regardless of their age, sex, or reproductive status.

There's no 'big whoop' about asking relevant questions.

But males are now being asked about pregnancy status because the NHS has been institutionally captured by trans advocates. Not because males can become pregnant. Not because the previous question missed some people who were pregnant. Not because it makes any medical sense. Solely because trans advocates want it that way.

That's not what your OP says.

It says the reason is because the Government removed the word "female" from the law governing some medical procedures and replaced it with "individuals", changing those who should be questioned from "females of childbearing age" to "individuals of childbearing potential", leading some hospital trusts to the perfectly reasonable conclusion that they should ask individuals seeking those medical procedures if they are or might be pregnant.

You seem to be offended by the thought that someone might ask you the same questions that would be asked of a female, regardless of your manly appearance.

 

[Metaphor]

I think this is the crux of your entire argument: it "may be regarded as demeaning or insulting" to think that a male patient is so much like a female patient that we only need one standard pre-treatment form and can simply write N/A as responses to questions about body parts or medical conditions they don't have.

Your mileage may vary, Arctish, but some men would find the implication that they are indistinguishable from women insulting.

So? Some women find the implication they might be pregnant insulting. Perhaps they're sensitive about being overweight or they're young or religious or lesbian and never even considered having sex with a guy. That's not a reason to not ask.

You are right, because the fact is, females can get pregnant.

I still don't see what the big whoop is about having a standard set of questions on a pre-treatment form

It isn't a pre-treatment form. It's a verbal question that was previously asked only of females. It still is asked only of females outside this particular NHS Trust hospital.

given to all patients regardless of their age, sex, or reproductive status.

There's no 'big whoop' about asking relevant questions.

But males are now being asked about pregnancy status because the NHS has been institutionally captured by trans advocates. Not because males can become pregnant. Not because the previous question missed some people who were pregnant. Not because it makes any medical sense. Solely because trans advocates want it that way.

That's not what your OP says.

It says the reason is because the Government removed the word "female" from the law governing some medical procedures and replaced it with "individuals", changing those who should be questioned from "females of childbearing age" to "individuals of childbearing potential", leading some hospital trusts to the perfectly reasonable conclusion that they should ask individuals seeking those medical procedures if they are or might be pregnant.

It isn't anything like 'reasonable'. Only females are 'individuals of childbearing potential'. This Trust changed its practice but other ones did not.

"All patients under the age of 60, regardless of how you may identify your gender" are now asked whether they are expecting at The Walton Centre NHS Foundation Trust, in Liverpool, the Telegraph reports.


It is understood to be one of a handful of trusts to have expanded the questioning to male patients despite it not being a national policy at NHS England.

You seem to be offended by the thought that someone might ask you the same questions that would be asked of a female, regardless of your manly appearance.

No, I am not offended by being asked questions that would be asked of a female, if the questions are relevant. You appear to want to make this about my feelings, but it is not about my feelings.

I would find it inconceivable that anybody, including the blind and deaf, would confuse me for a female, so being asked if I was pregnant would not offend me. I'd likely roll my eyes at the ridiculous instance of institutional capture that the question demonstrated and I would answer with 'what do you think?'

It is a change in practice that was not necessitated by law, had no good reasoning behind it, wastes patient and medic time, is ableist, has the potential to be confusing for ESL speakers, and has the potential to annoy and insult some patients. It w as a non-solution in search of a problem.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think it's less about people "confusing" others for something so much as the fact that the world moved past where we can or should be able to assume such things on such factors at all:

There are plethora men in this world whom ZERO posters on these forums would be able to tell from looking are capable of becoming pregnant.

That's what this is about: it is no longer an accepted practice assuming such things on the basis of how folks look because while it was never really possible in absolute terms to do it, now it's extra special impossible for some folks.

And that's OK.

What is not OK is the tantrum thrown by some folks over losing that cudgel with which to publicly "classify" others against their will and against any functional need to do so.

We can just ask them, and reserve the question for the moment the information is necessary, and let the answer fade from the air and awareness once it is unnecessary

 

[Metaphor]

I think it's less about people "confusing" others for something so much as the fact that the world moved past where we can or should be able to assume such things on such factors at all:

There are plethora men in this world whom ZERO posters on these forums would be able to tell from looking are capable of becoming pregnant.

That's what this is about: it is no longer an accepted practice assuming such things on the basis of how folks look because while it was never really possible in absolute terms to do it, now it's extra special impossible for some folks.

And that's OK.

What is not OK is the tantrum thrown by some folks over losing that cudgel with which to publicly "classify" others against their will and against any functional need to do so.

We can just ask them, and reserve the question for the moment the information is necessary, and let the answer fade from the air and awareness once it is unnecessary

The patients are already classified "against their will" by sex. The hospital already knows the patient's sex (until such time as trans advocates decide that a hospital knowing the sex of its patients is transphobic).

The people for whom pregnancy is a possibility should be asked. That list includes females only.

 

[ZiprHead]

But males are now being asked about pregnancy status because the NHS has been institutionally captured by trans advocates. Not because males can become pregnant. Not because the previous question missed some people who were pregnant. Not because it makes any medical sense. Solely because trans advocates want it that way.

Citation, please, or is this just a reasoning you brought forth from your hind quarters?

 

[Jarhyn]

It is also interesting that ANYONE is silly enough to believe that just because some piece of information exists somewhere in a system that it should be readily available for anyone to just look at whenever.

A random tech has no business knowing what my genitals are or look like. Zero. None.

It is more polite to ask "are you pregnant or may you become pregnant?" Without assuming whether I can or cannot, and my privacy is maintained in this way.

They can get "is not pregnant" without having any further details about my genitals.

The real question is why people keep demanding that random strangers know this data about other random strangers when they have no need of it.

 

[Metaphor]

But males are now being asked about pregnancy status because the NHS has been institutionally captured by trans advocates. Not because males can become pregnant. Not because the previous question missed some people who were pregnant. Not because it makes any medical sense. Solely because trans advocates want it that way.

Citation, please, or is this just a reasoning you brought forth from your hind quarters?

My citation is falsedichotomy.com

 

[Metaphor]

It is also interesting that ANYONE is silly enough to believe that just because some piece of information exists somewhere in a system that it should be readily available for anyone to just look at whenever.

A random tech has no business knowing what my genitals are or look like. Zero. None.

It is more polite to ask "are you pregnant or may you become pregnant?" Without assuming whether I can or cannot, and my privacy is maintained in this way.

Non. There is no possible universe where the revelation of your pregnancy status to a "random tech" maintains your privacy.

They can get "is not pregnant" without having any further details about my genitals.

They don't have any information about your genitals.

The real question is why people keep demanding that random strangers know this data about other random strangers when they have no need of it.

A person about to photograph your innards isn't a random stranger.