MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

[Derec]

Taking your assumption about their marketing as accurate, how is accurately depicting the history of the institution and its current demographics intentionally deterring or discouraging applicants from applying?

Because their entire institutional identity is tied up with them being "black schools".
And note, I said "except maybe" HBCUs. Not "certainly".

Using ______ (fill in the blank) as a factor among many factors does not mean discriminating by that factor.

That is literally what it means. If you use a variable X as a criterion to decide who will be admitted, then you are discriminating by that variable.

 

[Derec]

True. Neither did your analysis.

It did not have to change reality, since it already conforms to it.

 

[Toni]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

 

[laughing dog]

Taking your assumption about their marketing as accurate, how is accurately depicting the history of the institution and its current demographics intentionally deterring or discouraging applicants from applying?

Because their entire institutional identity is tied up with them being "black schools".
And note, I said "except maybe" HBCUs. Not "certainly".

That makes no sense as a rationale. HCBU began because of racism. If nonblack students are deterred from applying , that’s on them.

Using ______ (fill in the blank) as a factor among many factors does not mean discriminating by that factor.

That is literally what it means. If you use a variable X as a criterion to decide who will be admitted, then you are discriminating by that variable.

No. Reread what I wrote.

 

[laughing dog]

True. Neither did your analysis.

It did not have to change reality, since it already conforms to it.

So did the family’s suspicion.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Taking your assumption about their marketing as accurate, how is accurately depicting the history of the institution and its current demographics intentionally deterring or discouraging applicants from applying?

Because their entire institutional identity is tied up with them being "black schools".

You "forgot" the word "historically."

 

[Politesse]

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

Ah, a perfect trump. "No more mister nice guy," cried a fellow no one could quite recall being especially polite in the first place.

 

[Tigers!]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

Are your insurance costs for doctors eye-watering stupid like in Australia?
To set up a surgery you need insurance, paying off the HECS (uni debt) debt, equipment, at least a nurse/receptionist, nice place to set up, rent etc. The amount a doctor must charge per hour is already high before they open their doors. Add to that ther livings costs viz. house, car, food etc. then it is no wonder medical costs are so high.

Though in Australia now the surgery location has changed relative to other costs. In the 60s-90s the surgery had to be in a nice, large house somewhere in a nice suburb. People just would not go to a place deemed "unsuitable" for a surgery. Nowadays they will go to a converted factory in an industrial site on the edge of the suburbs. One change for the better.

 

[Toni]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

Are your insurance costs for doctors eye-watering stupid like in Australia?
To set up a surgery you need insurance, paying off the HECS (uni debt) debt, equipment, at least a nurse/receptionist, nice place to set up, rent etc. The amount a doctor must charge per hour is already high before they open their doors. Add to that ther livings costs viz. house, car, food etc. then it is no wonder medical costs are so high.

Though in Australia now the surgery location has changed relative to other costs. In the 60s-90s the surgery had to be in a nice, large house somewhere in a nice suburb. People just would not go to a place deemed "unsuitable" for a surgery. Nowadays they will go to a converted factory in an industrial site on the edge of the suburbs. One change for the better.

Insurance premiums are expensive in the US. We’ve been fortunate to have good health insurance through employers for most of our marriage. As retirees, we are on Medicare plus we pay for a supplement each month —it’s expensive but we’ve gotten our money’s worth the past few years.

Doctor’s offices these days are mostly not in houses in residential areas although I know of one that still is. I think. Normally in professional buildings, sometimes attached to hospitals, but that is largely dependent on where you live.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/recruiting/primary-care-doctor-salary

How Experience Level Affects Primary Care Doctor Salaries?​

Experience is a primary driver of a Primary Care Doctor's salary. As you build your skills and take on more complex tasks, your compensation generally increases. Here's how the average salary grows at different career stages:

• Entry-Level (less than 1 year): $51,565
• Early Career (1-2 years): $72,184
• Mid-Level (2-4 years): $92,914
• Senior-Level (5-8 years): $178,737
• Expert (over 8 years): $209,695

Considering the cost of school, insurance and other basic equipment, it doesn't appear as if primary care doctors make very much money in the US. I assume the above salaries are associated with a large practice as opposed to a small one that might be owned by the doctor or a few providers. But, at least where I live, most doctors are now a part of corporations, like Wellstar or Village Medical. Even specialists, who make quite a bit more money, are now often part of large groups, often corporately owned. Just throwing this out there so we understand that most of the money for healthcare doesn't go directly to the doctor or NP, most of whom are now salaried.

( Not that this is directly related to this stupid discussion regarding MCATs but as usually we stray off topic quite often. )

 

[Emily Lake]

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.

The very common phrase “bitch, please” is not equivalent to calling someone a bitch. It’s thematically similar to the difference between a black guy calling their friend “my nigga” and calling someone the n-word.

 

[Emily Lake]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

There's been a steady increase in suicides among black people for the past several years, regardless of where they live. There's been increased media attention to a small number of deaths by hanging of black people in the south. That doesn't mean that there is actually a statistically significant increase in them. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion of racist lynchings simply because the media turned a spotlight on a few and handed you a narrative.

Let's address suicidality across the board. There's no need to instigate racial division and tension in this.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

Family members frequently don't agree with an assessment of suicide. That doesn't make the assessment wrong. Families rarely want to believe that someone they loved killed themselves, and they didn't see it coming. It's a very common reaction.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

Bitch, please. I guarantee I have far more black family members in the south than you do. Stop trying to pretend like you're some noble white person out to save the poor helpless black folks. Set your original sin guilt aside.

Who the fuck do you really think you are to speak to me or any other person in this forum in such a manner?

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

I was rude? I don’t recall being rude.

Yeah, sure. The insinuation that I don’t care because they aren’t related certainly wasn’t a polite or even neutral comment. We’re such directed at you, I’m quite certain you would view it as rude.

Besides, you got your panties wadded up by an incredibly common casual phrase and responded with nastiness.

 

[laughing dog]

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.

The very common phrase “bitch, please” is not equivalent to calling someone a bitch. It’s thematically similar to the difference between a black guy calling their friend “my nigga” and calling someone the n-word.

Linguistically, it is literally calling someone a bitch. For those people who think being referred to as a “bitch”, it is definitely an insult.

So, regardless of your intent, don’t be surprised if someone gets insulted when you use that phrase.

 

[Emily Lake]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

Your argument essentially boils down to people get sick, so doctors need to have lavish upper middle lifestyles by charging those sick people exorbitant rates instead of being responsible with their money early in their career until they’ve paid off the debt they willingly signed up for”

 

[Emily Lake]

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

Ah, a perfect trump. "No more mister nice guy," cried a fellow no one could quite recall being especially polite in the first place.

I’m sorry you will have to deal with being treated the way you treat others. It must suck for you to taste your own medicine.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And, calling someone a "bitch" is pretty fecking rude to my generation.

The very common phrase “bitch, please” is not equivalent to calling someone a bitch. It’s thematically similar to the difference between a black guy calling their friend “my nigga” and calling someone the n-word.

It isn't like that. It's a hybrid put-down and dismissiveness.

 

[Toni]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

Your argument essentially boils down to people get sick, so doctors need to have lavish upper middle lifestyles by charging those sick people exorbitant rates instead of being responsible with their money early in their career until they’ve paid off the debt they willingly signed up for”

Nope. My argument t is that it is unreasonable to expect anyone to go through a decade of increasingly grueling education and training, while taking on hundreds ( plural) of thousands of education debt in addition to whatever consumer debt they were forced to incur to you know: live and then instead of looking at the sheer enormity of profit given to insurance companies who reward their CEOs—the entire C suite—and investors— obscenely and but because MDs finally entering their profession in the cusp of middle age want to earn enough money to pay back those loans and for a place to live—that’s a bridge too far? Maybe get married, start a family. You know: like real people do. Because they are still putting in long ass days doing work that is vital —and managing staff simultaneously. And hoping to have a bit of personal time.

You seem to be just fine with paying people enormous sums of money for not providing medical care to anybody.

That puzzles me.

 

[Toni]

There has been a recent cluster of black people being found hanging from trees in the South.

There's been a steady increase in suicides among black people for the past several years, regardless of where they live. There's been increased media attention to a small number of deaths by hanging of black people in the south. That doesn't mean that there is actually a statistically significant increase in them. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion of racist lynchings simply because the media turned a spotlight on a few and handed you a narrative.

Let's address suicidality across the board. There's no need to instigate racial division and tension in this.

Not every family of the persons deemed suicides agreed with that assessment.

Family members frequently don't agree with an assessment of suicide. That doesn't make the assessment wrong. Families rarely want to believe that someone they loved killed themselves, and they didn't see it coming. It's a very common reaction.

You don’t have to believe anything you don’t want to believe. And who cares? Those aren’t your family members or loved ones.

Bitch, please. I guarantee I have far more black family members in the south than you do. Stop trying to pretend like you're some noble white person out to save the poor helpless black folks. Set your original sin guilt aside.

Who the fuck do you really think you are to speak to me or any other person in this forum in such a manner?

You were rude first, so who the fuck do you think you are? And seriously, are you actually bent out of shape by "bitch, please"?

I warned ALL of you, I'm done tolerating rudeness and cruelty from people and that I will be responding in kind from now on.

I was rude? I don’t recall being rude.

Yeah, sure. The insinuation that I don’t care because they aren’t related certainly wasn’t a polite or even neutral comment. We’re such directed at you, I’m quite certain you would view it as rude.

Besides, you got your panties wadded up by an incredibly common casual phrase and responded with nastiness.

With all due respect, I understand that it is incredibly likely that a lot of the time right now, it feels as though every neuron in your body is on fire—been there so I truly get it or at least know how I felt —like I had been rolled down a long rocky hill covered in barbed wire and shards of glass into a pool of battery acid—but respectfully, I think you should consider that your reactions need to be recalibrated.

I was not deliberately rude or insulting unless you are of the disposition that we must all agree with you—but since this forum has rules, I’m assuming you actually are an adult and not an adolescent.

The above paragraph I realize you will see as an insult. It’s not intended to be so. It is supposed to get you to wake the fuck up and quit shooting at anybody who dares disagree with you. We —everyone on this board—disagree with each other. All the time.

That not rude to point out and it’s not an insult.

 

[Toni]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

Your argument essentially boils down to people get sick, so doctors need to have lavish upper middle lifestyles by charging those sick people exorbitant rates instead of being responsible with their money early in their career until they’ve paid off the debt they willingly signed up for”

$250K/year, especially when that salary comes with a higher tax bracket than mine and enormous indiscernible student loans in addition to need for transportation has t been lavish for at least a decade now.

Crap, I remember making way under that and still a lot more than my parents or in-laws or any of my relations ever earned and being shocked at how little was left after taxes, SS, insurance premiums, etc.

 

[Emily Lake]

We are much more able to help our young adult offspring at this point in our lives compared to the years when they were in elementary school or when we were paying tuition for one or more at universities.

My point is that physicians are exceedingly well compensated in the US and do not need student loan forgiveness or any other taxpayer funded handouts.

Do you think medical care in the US is accessible to all? Affordable to all? Or even to enough people?


There are many many pieces as to why health care is so expensive in the US but one factor is the cost of higher education in the US. We are graduating newly minted doctors with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. They then face very large start up costs and probably relocation costs as they launch their career—at a time when many are thinking about purchasing a home —requiring a down payment—or rent—rents are extremely high so that’s not much of a savings, and starting a family.

Taking away the cost of loan repayment —or dramatically reduce it abd you take some of the economic pressure off the equation.

It’s only a part of the issue but it is part of the issue.

Your argument essentially boils down to people get sick, so doctors need to have lavish upper middle lifestyles by charging those sick people exorbitant rates instead of being responsible with their money early in their career until they’ve paid off the debt they willingly signed up for”

Nope. My argument t is that it is unreasonable to expect anyone to go through a decade of increasingly grueling education and training, while taking on hundreds ( plural) of thousands of education debt in addition to whatever consumer debt they were forced to incur to you know: live and then instead of looking at the sheer enormity of profit given to insurance companies who reward their CEOs—the entire C suite—and investors— obscenely and but because MDs finally entering their profession in the cusp of middle age want to earn enough money to pay back those loans and for a place to live—that’s a bridge too far? Maybe get married, start a family. You know: like real people do. Because they are still putting in long ass days doing work that is vital —and managing staff simultaneously. And hoping to have a bit of personal time.

You seem to be just fine with paying people enormous sums of money for not providing medical care to anybody.

That puzzles me.

Hospital systems and providers make higher profit margins than insurance companies do.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that someone who takes out $200k in loans might be expected to live a more moderate lifestyle for a bit while they pay off the debt they willingly and knowingly took.

Doctors have the ability to command abusive salaries where their customers can’t say “no thanks”, in order to have luxuries limited to the top 5% of the country, and somehow you seem to think that because they agreed to take a large loan that makes it okay. Nobody else gets to do that. And YOU and every other person is footing the bill for it.

Everyone wants to have a house and start a family and have personal time and own nice cars and take luxurious vacations, and everyone puts in long hours.

To complete a bachelors, masters, and doctorate takes on average about 10 years, putting all of those on the cusp of middle age. And to attain that end point costs between $150k and $300k. Doctors aren’t different in this regard. But somehow they get a free pass to expect a 95th percentile income from people’s suffering… and people are fine with that.

Doctors have one hell of a PR branch.