Minimum Wage Study - MW Does Not Kill Jobs

[bilby]

I think one of the articles that I linked mentioned that a pizza restaurant was going to lay off a couple of guys who were delivering pizza, due to the increased minimum wage in that state. That is where I think Loren came up with his response. My point was that there are so many other jobs out there that pay 15 or more per hour, so the pizza delivery guy wan't going to have any problem finding other work.

I know two women how work for DoorDash and they seem to like it.
Plus those who work for Door Dash get to choose which deliveries they want to do. Of course, if you don't offer to take that many, you're not going to make much money. One of the women I know does DoorDash full time and the other one is just doing part time.

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

Do their customers now have to go collect pizzas from the store? No? Then the delivery drivers are just moving sideways.

The manufacturing company I used to work for decided to sell their entire distribution facility to DHL. The staff were transferred as well. Nobody was "laid off"; They all went to work on Monday at the same facility, to do the same work they were doing on Friday. The name at the top of their payslips, and the logos on their uniforms were the only change.

If you look ONLY at the employee lists for my company, it would look like a hundred people were suddenly fired. But that wasn't the case - it would be a mistake caused by only looking at half of the picture.

You are making that same mistake here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We have a clear example to the contrary--companies reacting to a minimum wage hike by eliminating entire positions.

Except that the example in question is of companies reacting to a new business model (outsourced delivery), and not to a minimum wage hike at all.

And their reaction was to move positions from their own business, to other businesses, such as Doordash. No positions have been eliminated; Every pizza delivered before the change will be delivered after the change - pizza delivery is still a job, and hasn't been eliminated at all.

So we have an example of companies reacting to something other than a minimum wage hike, by restructuring in a way that doesn't eliminate any positions. This wasn't a consequence of changes to minimum wage, any more than this morning's sunrise was a consequence of my banging the bongo drums.

This is NOT support for your beliefs, any more than the American Samoa non-example was.

You are having to significantly distort what is happening in order to persuade yourself that it's evidence in support of your position. You might succeed in misleading yourself by so doing, but nobody else is buying it.

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

 

[Elixir]

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

So, again, you are arguing out of “both sides” of your mouth. They should be subject to the MW, right?
Or are you referring to “special cases”?
I found this:

Dashers who deliver in NYC will now earn at least $29.93 per hour of active time, nearly twice NYC’s $15 minimum wage for other workers. This rate excludes tips and is just a minimum, so Dashers still have the opportunity to earn more than the minimum.

I think the catch is “active time”..

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think one of the articles that I linked mentioned that a pizza restaurant was going to lay off a couple of guys who were delivering pizza, due to the increased minimum wage in that state. That is where I think Loren came up with his response. My point was that there are so many other jobs out there that pay 15 or more per hour, so the pizza delivery guy wan't going to have any problem finding other work.

I know two women how work for DoorDash and they seem to like it.
Plus those who work for Door Dash get to choose which deliveries they want to do. Of course, if you don't offer to take that many, you're not going to make much money. One of the women I know does DoorDash full time and the other one is just doing part time.

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

You can't possibly know that. It's undetectable.

 

[Elixir]

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

Oh? Which chains are those?
Are they just laying off people in your area?

 

[southernhybrid]

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

Oh? Which chains are those?
Are they just laying off people in your area?

It will be horrific if Loren can't get his pizza delivered, other than by Door Dash. I do wonder why he hasn't noticed all the companies that are already paying far above the insanely low federal minimum wage, without any major job losses.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

So, again, you are arguing out of “both sides” of your mouth. They should be subject to the MW, right?
Or are you referring to “special cases”?
I found this:

Dashers who deliver in NYC will now earn at least $29.93 per hour of active time, nearly twice NYC’s $15 minimum wage for other workers. This rate excludes tips and is just a minimum, so Dashers still have the opportunity to earn more than the minimum.

I think the catch is “active time”..

The drivers getting laid off are in California, not New York.

And how many will find there aren't enough deliveries? At that price food delivery is going to get pretty expensive.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think one of the articles that I linked mentioned that a pizza restaurant was going to lay off a couple of guys who were delivering pizza, due to the increased minimum wage in that state. That is where I think Loren came up with his response. My point was that there are so many other jobs out there that pay 15 or more per hour, so the pizza delivery guy wan't going to have any problem finding other work.

I know two women how work for DoorDash and they seem to like it.
Plus those who work for Door Dash get to choose which deliveries they want to do. Of course, if you don't offer to take that many, you're not going to make much money. One of the women I know does DoorDash full time and the other one is just doing part time.

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

You can't possibly know that. It's undetectable.

Undetectable in employment statistics. Quite detectable in the news when it's in chunks like that.

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

Oh? Which chains are those?
Are they just laying off people in your area?

It's next door in California. I don't recall the chains.

 

[Elixir]

The drivers getting laid off are in California, not New York.

New York is closer to CA than, say, AMERICAN SAMOA!
Just sayin’…

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think one of the articles that I linked mentioned that a pizza restaurant was going to lay off a couple of guys who were delivering pizza, due to the increased minimum wage in that state. That is where I think Loren came up with his response. My point was that there are so many other jobs out there that pay 15 or more per hour, so the pizza delivery guy wan't going to have any problem finding other work.

I know two women how work for DoorDash and they seem to like it.
Plus those who work for Door Dash get to choose which deliveries they want to do. Of course, if you don't offer to take that many, you're not going to make much money. One of the women I know does DoorDash full time and the other one is just doing part time.

It's not a couple of guys. It's a couple of chains laying off all delivery drivers.

You can't possibly know that. It's undetectable.

Undetectable in employment statistics. Quite detectable in the news when it's in chunks like that.

So you mean if all the minimum wage workers were let go, as per your hypothetical... we could actually know that actually happened?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

So, again, you are arguing out of “both sides” of your mouth. They should be subject to the MW, right?
Or are you referring to “special cases”?
I found this:

Dashers who deliver in NYC will now earn at least $29.93 per hour of active time, nearly twice NYC’s $15 minimum wage for other workers. This rate excludes tips and is just a minimum, so Dashers still have the opportunity to earn more than the minimum.

I think the catch is “active time”..

The drivers getting laid off are in California, not New York.

And how many will find there aren't enough deliveries? At that price food delivery is going to get pretty expensive.

New York is closer to CA than American Samoa is. Just sayin’…

According to my map and ruler, only a few inches closer.

 

[ZiprHead]

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

So, again, you are arguing out of “both sides” of your mouth. They should be subject to the MW, right?
Or are you referring to “special cases”?
I found this:

Dashers who deliver in NYC will now earn at least $29.93 per hour of active time, nearly twice NYC’s $15 minimum wage for other workers. This rate excludes tips and is just a minimum, so Dashers still have the opportunity to earn more than the minimum.

I think the catch is “active time”..

Not only does DoorDash and the like deliver for pizza chains, they also deliver for almost all the fast food chains and many restaurants. They've created a whole new industry.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

So, again, you are arguing out of “both sides” of your mouth. They should be subject to the MW, right?
Or are you referring to “special cases”?
I found this:

Dashers who deliver in NYC will now earn at least $29.93 per hour of active time, nearly twice NYC’s $15 minimum wage for other workers. This rate excludes tips and is just a minimum, so Dashers still have the opportunity to earn more than the minimum.

I think the catch is “active time”..

Not only does DoorDash and the like deliver for pizza chains, they also deliver for almost all the fast food chains and many restaurants. They've created a whole new industry.

Not a good one.

Jebus! Imagine having to deliver in NYC! It sounds easy. As long as the place is upstairs or across the street. I remember seeing a couple door dashers talking about who was going to get what order at a pizza place.

 

[ZiprHead]

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

So, again, you are arguing out of “both sides” of your mouth. They should be subject to the MW, right?
Or are you referring to “special cases”?
I found this:

Dashers who deliver in NYC will now earn at least $29.93 per hour of active time, nearly twice NYC’s $15 minimum wage for other workers. This rate excludes tips and is just a minimum, so Dashers still have the opportunity to earn more than the minimum.

I think the catch is “active time”..

Not only does DoorDash and the like deliver for pizza chains, they also deliver for almost all the fast food chains and many restaurants. They've created a whole new industry.

Not a good one.

Jebus! Imagine having to deliver in NYC! It sounds easy. As long as the place is upstairs or across the street. I remember seeing a couple door dashers talking about who was going to get what order at a pizza place.

Yeah, I think doing it in NYC would be hell. Can't even find a place to park.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work elsewhere. The wife and I were eating lunch in a Big Boy last week and a DD came in and picked up an order. 15 to 20 minutes later another came in and did the same. Multiply that by the dozens of fast food places and other restaurants in the area and there could be a lot of business being transacted. Hell, one of our Rallys fast food joints has a drive through dedicated solely to drivers picking up orders.

 

[bilby]

And how many will find there aren't enough deliveries? At that price food delivery is going to get pretty expensive.

Oh no!

People might have to pay what it costs for the services they want??

It's a disaster!!1!one!!

 

[bilby]

We have a clear example to the contrary--companies reacting to a minimum wage hike by eliminating entire positions.

Except that the example in question is of companies reacting to a new business model (outsourced delivery), and not to a minimum wage hike at all.

And their reaction was to move positions from their own business, to other businesses, such as Doordash. No positions have been eliminated; Every pizza delivered before the change will be delivered after the change - pizza delivery is still a job, and hasn't been eliminated at all.

So we have an example of companies reacting to something other than a minimum wage hike, by restructuring in a way that doesn't eliminate any positions. This wasn't a consequence of changes to minimum wage, any more than this morning's sunrise was a consequence of my banging the bongo drums.

This is NOT support for your beliefs, any more than the American Samoa non-example was.

You are having to significantly distort what is happening in order to persuade yourself that it's evidence in support of your position. You might succeed in misleading yourself by so doing, but nobody else is buying it.

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

DoorDash would like to believe that they have found a loophole that enables them to avoid all kinds of employee protections, by declaring "gig work" to be done by "self-employed subcontractors", who only look just like "wage earning employees with unlawfully shit working conditions" if you squint; But the history of labour relations is one of employers trying to stiff workers, and governments telling them "No".

https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/10/us_dol_gig_worker_rule/

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We have a clear example to the contrary--companies reacting to a minimum wage hike by eliminating entire positions.

Except that the example in question is of companies reacting to a new business model (outsourced delivery), and not to a minimum wage hike at all.

And their reaction was to move positions from their own business, to other businesses, such as Doordash. No positions have been eliminated; Every pizza delivered before the change will be delivered after the change - pizza delivery is still a job, and hasn't been eliminated at all.

So we have an example of companies reacting to something other than a minimum wage hike, by restructuring in a way that doesn't eliminate any positions. This wasn't a consequence of changes to minimum wage, any more than this morning's sunrise was a consequence of my banging the bongo drums.

This is NOT support for your beliefs, any more than the American Samoa non-example was.

You are having to significantly distort what is happening in order to persuade yourself that it's evidence in support of your position. You might succeed in misleading yourself by so doing, but nobody else is buying it.

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

DoorDash would like to believe that they have found a loophole that enables them to avoid all kinds of employee protections, by declaring "gig work" to be done by "self-employed subcontractors", who only look just like "wage earning employees with unlawfully shit working conditions" if you squint; But the history of labour relations is one of employers trying to stiff workers, and governments telling them "No".

https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/10/us_dol_gig_worker_rule/

And when there is a serious crackdown expect most gig jobs to disappear.

 

[bilby]

We have a clear example to the contrary--companies reacting to a minimum wage hike by eliminating entire positions.

Except that the example in question is of companies reacting to a new business model (outsourced delivery), and not to a minimum wage hike at all.

And their reaction was to move positions from their own business, to other businesses, such as Doordash. No positions have been eliminated; Every pizza delivered before the change will be delivered after the change - pizza delivery is still a job, and hasn't been eliminated at all.

So we have an example of companies reacting to something other than a minimum wage hike, by restructuring in a way that doesn't eliminate any positions. This wasn't a consequence of changes to minimum wage, any more than this morning's sunrise was a consequence of my banging the bongo drums.

This is NOT support for your beliefs, any more than the American Samoa non-example was.

You are having to significantly distort what is happening in order to persuade yourself that it's evidence in support of your position. You might succeed in misleading yourself by so doing, but nobody else is buying it.

DoorDash etc do not have minimum wage because they are gig work.

DoorDash would like to believe that they have found a loophole that enables them to avoid all kinds of employee protections, by declaring "gig work" to be done by "self-employed subcontractors", who only look just like "wage earning employees with unlawfully shit working conditions" if you squint; But the history of labour relations is one of employers trying to stiff workers, and governments telling them "No".

https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/10/us_dol_gig_worker_rule/

And when there is a serious crackdown expect most gig jobs to disappear.

And the jobs you claim to have been lost due to MW hikes to reappear.

Because the changes were nothing to do with MW in the first place. And customers are still going to want somebody to deliver their pizzas.

Within reason, it doesn't matter to the customer how much delivery costs; They're prepared to pay for the convenience of having their food delivered to their door.

It matters to the pizza companies, because the customers will (ceteris paribus) choose the cheapest vendor, so reducing costs of delivery gets them a competitive advantage. The customers are happy to pay more; The delivery drivers want to earn more; The pizza companies want to pay less.

The only way to ensure that the workers don't get shafted is to put a floor under the pay rate the pizza companies are permitted to offer. A "minimum wage", if you would.

Of course, the pizza companies will look for, and try to exploit, any loophole they can, to increase their profits by paying workers less. DoorDash looks like an excellent loophole. Right up until the government closes it.

Without government to say "No, you can't abuse your workers in this way", workers will inevitably be paid as little as the most desparate person will take, and will be required to work in conditions that are as dangerous as the most foolhardy person will tolerate.

It is necessary to set a lowest rate of pay, and a lowest level of safety, and to force all companies to comply with these, or you will inevitably see a "race to the bottom", with any company that doesn't ruthlessly attack its own workforce becoming instantly uncompetitive, against those that are crueller than thou.

If government won't do this, then labour will organise to do it without the government's help.

 

[robnisch]

Are you an employee or a gig worker? The Biden administration just issued a new rule on that

The rule replaces a Trump-era standard that narrowed the criteria for classifying employees as contractors. Such workers are not guaranteed minimum wages or benefits.

www.latimes.com

Not sure if this make it better.
But, there needs to be firm rules about what an employee is.

 

[DBT]

The Gig work rip off:

“Food delivery riders are being ripped off. They are denied superannuation payments and are forced to work below minimum rates, and sometimes not paid at all during shifts demanded by the companies. This so-called partnership on superannuation by Deliveroo is an insult to these riders who deserve rights and protections set down under the law,” TWU national secretary Tony Sheldon said."

Gig worker super scheme criticised as unfair to delivery riders

National unions have criticised a new self-funded superannuation scheme for Deliveroo riders.

www.google.com