Mississippi Passes "More Dead Kids Please" bill. Texas responds w/ "hold my beer"

[Rhea]

Are you kidding? I've never once seen an active violent public crime in progress by a white person, and directly encountered several active crimes perpetrated by black people.

Mainsplainin’ your one data point and thinking it represents a thousand years of lived reality.

Jarhyn - no.

The rapes I've been involved with have all been by people on testosterone. I've never been raped nor even felt a suspicion that I may by anyone who is not.

Maybe the difference here is that I actually have context that divorces the threat of rape from the ownership of a penis?

Maybe the difference here is that you hve no fucking idea at all what it is like to live as a woman.

 

[Jarhyn]

Mainsplainin’ your one data point and thinking it represents a thousand years of lived reality.

Jarhyn - no.

There are just as many thousands of years of lived reality of "people who look different" attacking "people who look like me", and while the vast majority of people never attack anyone, plenty of people have been attacked by the minority of "people who look different who attack people who look different from them".

I would argue that this is a naturally selected trait, the fear of those who are identifiably distinct, but it's still one that we need to suppress.

Maybe the difference here is that you hve no fucking idea at all what it is like to live as a woman.

And when you give me one such idea that justifies blanket prejudice against the dimension of penis rather than testosterone, I'll carefully consider it.

I haven't gotten it yet.

 

[Jarhyn]

In other news...

Trans women athletes have no unfair advantage under current rules, report finds

‘The performance advantages from social factors, training and access to equipment are far greater than testosterone,' paper concludes

www.cyclingweekly.com

"What threatens women’s elite sport, for cis and trans women, is not trans women, but is rather misogyny in the form of underfunding, non-parity in participation and leadership, inequitable sport space allocation/access, and a range of sporting opportunities not afforded to women (cis women and trans women) in equitable ways."

I proposed we fight the misogyny, not the trans women.

 

[Bomb#20]

Evolution happens because of genetic mutations. The vast overwhelming number of mutations are deleterious: they are fatal outright or inhibit the fitness of the individual for survival and the opportunity to pass on its genes. The vast overwhelming majority of mutations are not passed on to subsequent generations.

Source?

According to what I've read, the vast majority of mutations are neutral and the average human is a mutant forty times over.

Only 40?! Or is that in comparison to their parents, not in comparison to the human norm?

Yes, compared to parents. Estimates vary widely; according to Wikipedia the average is 64 new mutations not copied from parents. Compared to the human norm I think it's hundreds of thousands.

My genetics and molecular biology professors. Sorry but it’s been a day and I am not terribly inclined to search the web for you.

But:

Study: Most 'silent' genetic mutations are harmful, not neutral, a finding with broad implications

Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast. Image credit: iStock In the early 1960s, University of Michigan alumnus Marshall Nirenberg and a few other scientists deciphered the genetic code of life, determining the rules by which information in DNA molecules is translated into proteins, the working parts of

news.umich.edu

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707611045

Fascinating, thanks! Apparently it's an area of active research and my information was out of date. But your sources don't back up your claim that the majority of mutations are not passed on to subsequent generations. The mutations are harmful, but only very slightly so. They don't inhibit fitness enough to prevent them from being passed along -- they merely reduce the probability a smidgin. The average human has about two children, so if he has 64 mutations, about 48 of those are going to be passed on to at least one child, including the harmful ones. It may be different in yeast, but the human genome is so big that selective pressure strong enough to prevent harmful mutations from being passed on would kill us all.

 

[Emily Lake]

I've taken much of my life learning how to control inappropriate fight or flight reflexes, caused by generations of child abuse at the hands of well meaning but abusive parents who promote theater and anxiety over the non-issue rather than contributing to behaviors and education for identifying real risks.

Of course, because of the abuse perpetrated by my own well-meaning but unknowingly racist parents, and conservative media at large, I have to frequently swallow an unwanted and inappropriate fight or flight reflex with regards to black people.

I expect women to not blame the penis, to swallow the reflex, and blame their parents and themselves instead of the penis, because it's nothing less than what I have frequent experience with doing myself, albeit in a different abusively arranged context.

Based on your post here, I think there are some very salient difference that you are failing to take into consideration.

You have a bias against black people, that you have to constantly fight. This is the result of what you were TAUGHT - both by parents and by media. This is a conditioned reflex in you.

But have you ever actually been attacked by a black person, for absolutely no reason other than that you are white?

In reality... random unwarranted attacks by black people do not happen in a materially and statistically different way than they do by white people. At the very most extreme, you might get a higher proportion of attacks by black people in areas where the population of black people is statistically higher. It's nothing more than a matter of numbers. And even then, those attacks are almost always due to either 1) gang-related activity or 2) poverty.

So there is good rationale for subduing your conditioned reflex as being illogical and discriminatory.

Let's talk about the experience of women.

Every woman who has participated in this thread has been assaulted by a man - and we weren't assaulted for an external reason, we were assaulted by men because we are women. Because we are female. It's not due to gang activity or some other condition that is unrelated to our sex, it is due almost exclusively to our sex as female, and the sex of our attacker as male.

All of us women in this thread have been assaulted multiple times. Every woman I know over the age of about 15 has been assaulted at least once, most of them more than once. If we include sexual harassment this is an almost universal experience for women.

This isn't something irrational that has been conditioned into us by our parents or by media. This is a result of our actual real experiences. This is the result of all of us having been ogled inappropriately by old men since we first grew boobs. It's from having had 50 year old skeezy men staring at our tits from when we were 12! It's from being catcalled, and having complete fucking strangers make comments about our bodies, about what they'd like to do to us, from the time we began puberty. It's about the widespread statistics that virtually every woman on the face of the planet faces now... and that our mothers and grandmothers and every female ancestor back through recorded history has faced.

It's not irrational at all. It's not a learned behavior with no basis in actuality. It's the direct result of all of us, and every woman we know, having been harassed, assaulted, raped, or abused by men, on the basis of our sex.

 

[Jarhyn]

But have you ever actually been attacked by a black person, for absolutely no reason other than that you are white?

I watched someone directly in front of me being attacked by black people because they were white, yes, and have been harassed by black people because I am white on several occasions.

random unwarranted attacks by black people do not happen in a materially and statistically different way than they do by white people

This is not my lived experience.

Every woman who has participated in this thread has been assaulted by a man - and we weren't assaulted for an external reason, we were assaulted by men because we are women

No, you were assaulted by men because they were assholes on testosterone.

I have been threatened by women and men in equal measure over the course of my life, more often by black people than white people.

Outside of the course of direct violent crime, in the realm of mere threats, the threats were shaped differently but they were no less equivalent as threats.

I can readily identify that trans people, who I run into at much higher rates than the general public does, have never threatened me with violence... Though one did threaten me with a false rape accusation. I'll give you even money on what gender they were.

I don't know a single male person who has not been threatened, assaulted, or raped by a person on testosterone.

I would be hard pressed to think of a single time I have been physically assaulted by someone who is not on testosterone.

I HAVE been SOCIALLY assaulted by people on estrogen, however.

These are simple facts.

People on testosterone do not threaten you because they were born with a penis or because they are "men" or because you are women. They do it because they have poor judgement made worse by exposure to testosterone, and they do it to everyone.

It's just most people on testosterone don't attribute it to them being male, because there's no identifiable difference to assume as the motive. Because they are also generally on testosterone and a relatively equal physical match, they don't make much of it.

It's the testosterone that is the major differentiable causal contributor to this violent behavior, and I can see it in painfully stark relief as someone who is not on testosterone, and have direct visibility on the kinds of thoughts that happen while exposed to it because of past experience.

Your sex does not determine whether you will be harassed, assaulted, or otherwise targeted. It only determines the shape of the harassment, assault, or targeted violence.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As an FYI, that isn't conclusive, we need more data and research. That is how science works. The real trouble we'll run into for this subject is the lack of actually having a statistically significant sample to work with.

It is completely and utterly ridiculous to handwave concerns regarding competitive advantage for a transgender woman, when a simple comparison of what place does a man come in if in the woman field... without any treatment. Clearly, it'd be unequal. So it HAS TO BE DEMONSTRATED that how puberty is dealt with and how treatment is dealt with, negatively impact a trans woman's "born with-ish" ability to equalize the stakes on the competition field with women.

You want to scoff at the concern. If I simply put my name in the women's category for races I did, I would have won a lot more overall trophies. It becomes a bit nebulous to determine fairness in a trans woman's competitiveness with women. This isn't easy to demonstrate. The article indicates that other factors have been shown weigh more heavily, but it does not say that transgender factors don't weigh in enough to be an issue.

 

[Jarhyn]

As an FYI, that isn't conclusive, we need more data and research. That is how science works. The real trouble we'll run into for this subject is the lack of actually having a statistically significant sample to work with.

It is completely and utterly ridiculous to handwave concerns regarding competitive advantage for a transgender woman, when a simple comparison of what place does a man come in if in the woman field... without any treatment. Clearly, it'd be unequal. So it HAS TO BE DEMONSTRATED that how puberty is dealt with and how treatment is dealt with, negatively impact a trans woman's "born with-ish" ability to equalize the stakes on the competition field with women.

You want to scoff at the concern. If I simply put my name in the women's category for races I did, I would have won a lot more overall trophies. It becomes a bit nebulous to determine fairness in a trans woman's competitiveness with women. This isn't easy to demonstrate. The article indicates that other factors have been shown weigh more heavily, but it does not say that transgender factors don't weigh in enough to be an issue.

The correct path is always going to be to respect the results of research while attempting to validate it more heavily, rather than rejecting the results of research.

It is "trust, but verify" not "distrust while attempting to confirm one's biases".

 

[Emily Lake]

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Actual data from UK shows that transwomen have a higher rate of sexual offenses than men in general.

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis). Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

That's not a reliable sample. There are 129 prisoners known by the MOJ to be transwomen, but there are surely hundreds more thieves and drug dealers and whatnot who are also transwomen but who've very sensibly kept in the closet about it to avoid making themselves targets to all the macho jerks they're locked up with. Moreover, some of those 129 are probably cismen who lied to the prison authorities about being trans in order to get special treatment. Whether transwomen have a higher rate of sexual offenses than men in general can't be determined from this data.

Sure. There's a swedish study that was based on a long-term observation of transsexual people - people who had surgery and hormonal adjustments, and it shows that MtF transsexuals retained a male pattern of criminality, and that the criminality of FtM trassexuals rose to nearly the level of males.

The takeaway is that removing testosterone from a male does not make them any less violent or aggressive on average than the average male. Adding testosterone to a female does make them more violent and aggressive than the average female.

To be fair, I think we can all observe that there has been no notable change in the level of aggression exhibited by the males in this thread who have removed testosterone from their system.

 

[Emily Lake]

The panic reaction of a rabbit when it sees a wolf is totally just prejudice

"Trans women are WOLVES!!!!111"

No. You are the one acting like the wolf here.

Emily was not analogizing wolves to transwomen; she was analogizing wolves to men.

I took that as Jarhyn tacitly admitting that transwomen are men.

 

[Emily Lake]

AFAIK, everyone here supports trans rights

The point here is that Emily and Bomb very much do not.

Of course we do. Trans people are human beings and trans rights are the same rights as human rights. I take it what you're claiming I do not support are rights that trans people have but that other people don't have, rights you believe in because you see rights as conferred on people not by their humanity but by your idiosyncratic ethical theories, and/or by their rank on the progressive stack.

Maybe an example will make this clearer. There is no such thing as a right to gay marriage. The law does not take notice of the sexual orientation of the persons applying for a marriage license. What there is a right to is same-sex marriage. Straight people have every bit as much right to a same-sex marriage as gay people. Millions of wealthy men and poor women enter "marriages of convenience" with no intention of copulating, giving the man an all-purpose assistant and the woman an assurance of financial security. Wealthy women could in principle make the same sort of bargain traditionally, but that was only a mirage of equal rights -- the reality is that very few poor men would agree to become a de facto housewife. The Obergefell decision made the promise of equal rights a reality, because now a rich woman can find a poor woman to make that bargain with, the same as a rich man can. Same-sex marriage is a human right, not just a gay right.

Because I argue this, you will no doubt claim I do not support gay rights. Yes, I bloody well do.

This is something that marriage equality allows I think this guy makes some good points.

 

[Jarhyn]

The panic reaction of a rabbit when it sees a wolf is totally just prejudice

"Trans women are WOLVES!!!!111"

No. You are the one acting like the wolf here.

Emily was not analogizing wolves to transwomen; she was analogizing wolves to men.

I took that as Jarhyn tacitly admitting that transwomen are men.

No, it was you calling trans women men.

You call people with penises "men" consistently, regardless of whether they are men or not.

Trans women often have penises, even ones without balls.

You are the one who broad brushed "penis=wolf", straight up.

 

[Emily Lake]

Like the right to use the same bathroom other people use, to participate in sports alongside people with the same general steroidal/hormonal profile as themselves.

You keep saying this as if the level of testoserone in our systems is the ONLY element that differs between males and female of the human species. And it's wrong. It's not just wrong, it's blatantly inane.

Regardless of the current level of testosterone...
Men are taller
Men have longer legs and arms
Men have larger feet and hands
Men have larger hearts
Men have larger lungs
Men have more fast-twitch muscles
Men have different femur angles
Men have different tendon and musculature attachment points for hips and shoulders
Men's internal organs are more tightly bound into position

ALL OF THOSE are things that affect athletic performance. And to add to that, removal of testosterone reduces a man's degree of muscle density, but it does NOT reduce it to that of an average woman.

Once again, females of the human species are not just "men without testosterone".

 

[Jarhyn]

Men are taller
Men have longer legs and arms
Men have larger feet and hands
Men have larger hearts
Men have larger lungs
Men have more fast-twitch muscles
Men have different femur angles
Men have different tendon and musculature attachment points for hips and shoulders
Men's internal organs are more tightly bound into position

No, some men are going to be taller and some men are shorter than any given woman.
Some men have longer legs and arms and some men have shorter legs and arms than any given woman...
And so on.

The determinant of this is a variety of factors based on when, and which hormones, effect the body, and to what extent, along with a myriad of other factors completely independent of sex hormones.

"Men" as a group are not anything in particular because the group of "men" is an artificial group selection.

Even when I publicly identified as a man, I was not "men", I was only ever just "me".

And when I publicly identified as a man, before I cut testosterone out of my life, it was the testosterone that caused my body to grow in the ways it did.

There is less between-group variations than there is within-group variation, regardless.

 

[Emily Lake]

How are you measuring "stronger" and "more physically developed"? No doubt you can back that claim up if you cherry pick the data, but otherwise?

There's a table of childhood track and field records here, listed by event, sex and age. http://age-records.125mb.com/

Matched by age, before puberty, the boys' records are systematically better than the girls' records in nearly all the events.

Your source is 5 to 19 year olds. It includes boys who have gone through the majority of puberty.

There is a period of time where girls gain height more quickly than boys, so for about a year it would be true that girls have a slight advantage. But the variance is very small relative to the difference caused by puberty.

I think it's reasonable to say that prior to puberty, girls and boys have essentially the same physicality with respect to athletics.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As an FYI, that isn't conclusive, we need more data and research. That is how science works. The real trouble we'll run into for this subject is the lack of actually having a statistically significant sample to work with.

It is completely and utterly ridiculous to handwave concerns regarding competitive advantage for a transgender woman, when a simple comparison of what place does a man come in if in the woman field... without any treatment. Clearly, it'd be unequal. So it HAS TO BE DEMONSTRATED that how puberty is dealt with and how treatment is dealt with, negatively impact a trans woman's "born with-ish" ability to equalize the stakes on the competition field with women.

You want to scoff at the concern. If I simply put my name in the women's category for races I did, I would have won a lot more overall trophies. It becomes a bit nebulous to determine fairness in a trans woman's competitiveness with women. This isn't easy to demonstrate. The article indicates that other factors have been shown weigh more heavily, but it does not say that transgender factors don't weigh in enough to be an issue.

The correct path is always going to be to respect the results of research while attempting to validate it more heavily, rather than rejecting the results of research.

The trouble is, we aren't there with research to have a viable conclusion.

Currently we know men in general faster/stronger than women, ie kind for kind... competitive men v competitive women, non-competitive men v non-competitive women.

The research needs to show that this is not true for the case of formerly competitive men.

It is "trust, but verify" not "distrust while attempting to confirm one's biases".

I just find that insulting. My covenant is with fairness in competition. If the science shows a cut off age, then go with that. If it shows with enough therapy, then go with that. Does it vary by sport, such as swimming where body design (length, width, shoulder build the first two are huge with buoyancy and the last with power) have a major impact. A frustrating thing regarding reporting Lia Thomas is no one seems to have bothered looking at their times, just her rankings which isn't relevant, the times are. I found one time that indicated her 500 was about the same prior to transition. If an athlete's time isn't changing significant due to transitioning, that seems to indicate that they are racing with a male chassis.

Right now there is no clear consensus. We lack scientifically significant populations as this is an emerging thing. And it is a very amorphous issue. Was it fair that anyone had to race against a giant with the amount of grace Usain Bolt had? I'm not even certain what the standards need to be to imply competitive fairness.

 

[Emily Lake]

You persistently define women in a way that it must include females regardless of whether or not they "live as women".

You are correct. I'm surprised it has taken you this long to recognize that I'm using a biological scientific definition for the LITERAL meaning of the word 'women', as opposed to a figurative meaning based on a set of social stereotypes.

I wish to divide the world specifically into "on steroids" and "not on steroids".

It says nothing about who is a man and who is not. The fact is, I actually think people who decide to cleave to steroids are the ones who are making a foolish decision, and deserving of doubt, suspicion, and certain forms of censures.

But go ahead. Tell me more about what I feel and believe

You seem to be a proponent of eliminating the entire human species. You can hold whatever belief you want in that regard, but it's entirely irrational to expect anyone else to jump on board your "Let's Extinct the Human Species" bandwagon.

 

[Emily Lake]

When there is both dysphoria and depression, some of the depression WILL BE caused by the dysphoria.

What makes you so certain that it's not the other way around?

 

[Emily Lake]

If there is less depression after solving the dysphoria issue, then we can keep on treating that, but if the depression is caused by dysphoria, it will not be resolved no matter what other things you try.

If treating for dysphoria has no effect on the depression, and the evaluation indicates that their dysphoria is based not on solid footing and motives, it can be terminated with no major complications especially in a 6 week time frame, but the same cannot be said the other way around, especially in the case where a voice suddenly changes, or breasts develop.

What do you think constitutes "treating dysphoria" that only takes 6 weeks?

 

[Emily Lake]

She is absolutely using bad faith here because DEPRESSION IS CAUSED BY DYSPHORIA

Dapression is ALSO caused by a myriad other things than dysphoria.

You are assuming that if a child presents with depression and also claims to be transgender, then the transgender MUST BE THE ONLY POSSIBLE cause of their depression - even if the depression predates any indication of dysphoria whatsoever.

No, you are assuming the psychiatrists can't tell if the depression is related to the dysphoria.

False. I'm saying that the psychiatrists ought to do their absolute damndest to figure out the ACTUAL cause of the depression before they take the patient down a path that causes PERMANENT PHYSICAL CHANGES WITH LONG-TERM HEALTH IMPACTS.

FFS, when a patient presents with fatigue and an unexplained weight loss, doctors don't immediately jump to "Lets start chemotherapy right away". It would be negligent to do so, because chemotherapy has negative health impacts. They FIRST determine whether those symptoms are caused by cancer rather than something else... so they can treat the correct condition.

Why is this so much to ask for?