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Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

It's all about the blood.
There's also the aroma:
Genesis 8:20-21
Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
 
It's all about the blood.
Yeah, still the primitive "demonic" energy...And the whole Jesus thing, as a "sacrificial lamb", full of blood and gore...because Yhwh would not have any other way...
And the mass is a repetition of the same thing, bread and wine, but still flesh and blood...I'm not buying it...
It's the old primitive "god"...transubstantiated and all... :rolleyes:
BTW I find Jesus' body and blood to be pretty tasty (at the times I thought I was Christian enough to take the sacrament)
 
I mean ... 'how' could you handle the situation as a parent, if children did actually murder, rape and pillage other children? It's a whole different perspective.
Well the Yaweh solution would be to kill every single child, teacher and janitor in their school, level the school to the ground, pulverise the rubble to dust, and salt the playing fields so no grass would ever grow there again.
The analogy would be about you in the scenario - the child and parent. God is outside, reflecting on a much bigger scale and ability. So how would you deal with it in the analogy?
I would likely not kill anyone.
Will you allow your children to defend themselves against being murdered?
You know, standard Biblical collective punishment.

It's deeply immoral, but God apparently has it as his go-to response.
I do know we have varied standards... or is that biblical preferences how one reads?
Only if you call ignoring those clearly described events in the Bible that don't match your beliefs a "preference"
Hey, snap! That's what I see, when reading some of the posts on the thread. 🙂
 
Then there's the Gnostic belief that Yahweh is an evil demiurge, that He's the 'Satan' who is in charge of the world.
The gnostics belief has an interesting take, in that, for many Christians, Yahweh is the 'messenger of the Lord', who had authority to pass judgement, in parts of the old testament, who was NOT the father ( may provide the answer to some questions, like 'no one had seen the Father's face and lived etc..)- (Jesus will be judge again, in the end of days).

The gnostics version identifies there being two entities also! 'However... according to them (the gnostics) Yahweh is but an evil 'demi-god: but is not the the Father. It's been an interesting belief for many Christians, because this distorted narrative... Yahweh being parallel to Christ (as creator) hints a layer in this gnostic twisting as being anti-Jesus/ anti-christ underneath.

It's not twisting. It's a means of explaining the obviously cruel, intolerant and vindictive nature of Yahweh as described in the Old Testament, which is clearly not that of a God of Love.
It's a means of wishful thinking from your position. Explanations out-of-context are easy; you simply ignore all the verses (which there is quite a sum), like the context to wars with the Israelites and being righteous, turning from evil... to which God is strongly emphasised being the total opposite to your false characterisation.


Genocide, wholesale slaughter and rape is the context.
'That'll shalt not do any of the above' is one of the major contexts. There are several.
Your context is a misuse of wording (as per atheist usual).
 
Then there's the Gnostic belief that Yahweh is an evil demiurge, that He's the 'Satan' who is in charge of the world.
The gnostics belief has an interesting take, in that, for many Christians, Yahweh is the 'messenger of the Lord', who had authority to pass judgement, in parts of the old testament, who was NOT the father ( may provide the answer to some questions, like 'no one had seen the Father's face and lived etc..)- (Jesus will be judge again, in the end of days).

The gnostics version identifies there being two entities also! 'However... according to them (the gnostics) Yahweh is but an evil 'demi-god: but is not the the Father. It's been an interesting belief for many Christians, because this distorted narrative... Yahweh being parallel to Christ (as creator) hints a layer in this gnostic twisting as being anti-Jesus/ anti-christ underneath.

It's not twisting. It's a means of explaining the obviously cruel, intolerant and vindictive nature of Yahweh as described in the Old Testament, which is clearly not that of a God of Love.
It's a means of wishful thinking from your position. Explanations out-of-context are easy; you simply ignore all the verses (which there is quite a sum), like the context to wars with the Israelites and being righteous, turning from evil... to which God is strongly emphasised being the total opposite to your false characterisation.


Genocide, wholesale slaughter and rape is the context.
'That'll shalt not do any of the above' is one of the major contexts. There are several.
Yours context is a misuse of words.

The descriptions of the agency of God in relation to killing and genocide is the context for the morality of these actions. Killing the first born of Egypt for instance, the innocent slaughtered as a means to compell the Pharoah to act, even while hardening his heart. Morality? I don't think so.
 
Then there's the Gnostic belief that Yahweh is an evil demiurge, that He's the 'Satan' who is in charge of the world.
The gnostics belief has an interesting take, in that, for many Christians, Yahweh is the 'messenger of the Lord', who had authority to pass judgement, in parts of the old testament, who was NOT the father ( may provide the answer to some questions, like 'no one had seen the Father's face and lived etc..)- (Jesus will be judge again, in the end of days).

The gnostics version identifies there being two entities also! 'However... according to them (the gnostics) Yahweh is but an evil 'demi-god: but is not the the Father. It's been an interesting belief for many Christians, because this distorted narrative... Yahweh being parallel to Christ (as creator) hints a layer in this gnostic twisting as being anti-Jesus/ anti-christ underneath.

It's not twisting. It's a means of explaining the obviously cruel, intolerant and vindictive nature of Yahweh as described in the Old Testament, which is clearly not that of a God of Love.
It's a means of wishful thinking from your position. Explanations out-of-context are easy; you simply ignore all the verses (which there is quite a sum), like the context to wars with the Israelites and being righteous, turning from evil... to which God is strongly emphasised being the total opposite to your false characterisation.


Genocide, wholesale slaughter and rape is the context.
'That'll shalt not do any of the above' is one of the major contexts. There are several.
Yours context is a misuse of words.

The descriptions of the agency of God in relation to killing and genocide is the context for the morality of these actions. Killing the first born of Egypt for instance, the innocent slaughtered as a means to compell the Pharoah to act,
As I have already showed in a previous post. Pharaoh was given 10 chances to free the Israelites in which he refused 10 times. Who will defend the Israelites other than their God? In the last few centuries, nations have gone to war after 1 or 2 ultimatums, never mind 10.
even while hardening his heart. Morality? I don't think so.
Hardening Pharaohs heart is a result of his own stubbornness and refusal to let the Israelites go, despite the demise of his own people, which he didn't care until after 10 warnings...

...the logic of atheists, when reading this text and making this is an argument 🙄. I mean.. those 10 warnings wouldn't be necessary at all, if God is directly hardening pharaoh's heart, as you're describing!
 
Then there's the Gnostic belief that Yahweh is an evil demiurge, that He's the 'Satan' who is in charge of the world.
The gnostics belief has an interesting take, in that, for many Christians, Yahweh is the 'messenger of the Lord', who had authority to pass judgement, in parts of the old testament, who was NOT the father ( may provide the answer to some questions, like 'no one had seen the Father's face and lived etc..)- (Jesus will be judge again, in the end of days).

The gnostics version identifies there being two entities also! 'However... according to them (the gnostics) Yahweh is but an evil 'demi-god: but is not the the Father. It's been an interesting belief for many Christians, because this distorted narrative... Yahweh being parallel to Christ (as creator) hints a layer in this gnostic twisting as being anti-Jesus/ anti-christ underneath.

It's not twisting. It's a means of explaining the obviously cruel, intolerant and vindictive nature of Yahweh as described in the Old Testament, which is clearly not that of a God of Love.
It's a means of wishful thinking from your position. Explanations out-of-context are easy; you simply ignore all the verses (which there is quite a sum), like the context to wars with the Israelites and being righteous, turning from evil... to which God is strongly emphasised being the total opposite to your false characterisation.


Genocide, wholesale slaughter and rape is the context.
'That'll shalt not do any of the above' is one of the major contexts. There are several.
Yours context is a misuse of words.

The descriptions of the agency of God in relation to killing and genocide is the context for the morality of these actions. Killing the first born of Egypt for instance, the innocent slaughtered as a means to compell the Pharoah to act,
As I have already showed in a previous post. Pharaoh was given 10 chances to free the Israelites in which he refused 10 times. Who will defend the Israelites other than their God? In the last few centuries, nations have gone to war after 1 or 2 ultimatums, never mind 10.
even while hardening his heart. Morality? I don't think so.
Hardening Pharaohs heart is a result of his own stubbornness and refusal to let the Israelites go, despite the demise of his own people, which he didn't care until after 10 warnings...

I mean...the logic of atheists reading this text and making this is an argument. Those 10 warnings wouldn't be necessary at all, if God is hardening pharaoh's heart, as you're describing!


''But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said to Moses. King James Bible And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.'' Hebrews 9:12

It does not say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It tells us that the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart.

But let's say your interpretation is correct and we are dealing with poetic language....killing the innocent for the actions of the guilty is neither moral or just.

That is the point.
 
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An intelligent fundy creationist
A species as common as the married bachelor, or the four sided triangle...
The guy was very good at chess - same with this fundy creationist:
I mean good chess players are usually considered to be "intelligent" - though there are different types of intelligence like "emotional intelligence". I think chess involves some logic and reasoning.
 
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Then there's the Gnostic belief that Yahweh is an evil demiurge, that He's the 'Satan' who is in charge of the world.
The gnostics belief has an interesting take, in that, for many Christians, Yahweh is the 'messenger of the Lord', who had authority to pass judgement, in parts of the old testament, who was NOT the father ( may provide the answer to some questions, like 'no one had seen the Father's face and lived etc..)- (Jesus will be judge again, in the end of days).

The gnostics version identifies there being two entities also! 'However... according to them (the gnostics) Yahweh is but an evil 'demi-god: but is not the the Father. It's been an interesting belief for many Christians, because this distorted narrative... Yahweh being parallel to Christ (as creator) hints a layer in this gnostic twisting as being anti-Jesus/ anti-christ underneath.

It's not twisting. It's a means of explaining the obviously cruel, intolerant and vindictive nature of Yahweh as described in the Old Testament, which is clearly not that of a God of Love.
It's a means of wishful thinking from your position. Explanations out-of-context are easy; you simply ignore all the verses (which there is quite a sum), like the context to wars with the Israelites and being righteous, turning from evil... to which God is strongly emphasised being the total opposite to your false characterisation.


Genocide, wholesale slaughter and rape is the context.
'That'll shalt not do any of the above' is one of the major contexts. There are several.
Yours context is a misuse of words.

The descriptions of the agency of God in relation to killing and genocide is the context for the morality of these actions. Killing the first born of Egypt for instance, the innocent slaughtered as a means to compell the Pharoah to act,
As I have already showed in a previous post. Pharaoh was given 10 chances to free the Israelites in which he refused 10 times. Who will defend the Israelites other than their God? In the last few centuries, nations have gone to war after 1 or 2 ultimatums, never mind 10.
even while hardening his heart. Morality? I don't think so.
Hardening Pharaohs heart is a result of his own stubbornness and refusal to let the Israelites go, despite the demise of his own people, which he didn't care until after 10 warnings...

I mean...the logic of atheists reading this text and making this is an argument. Those 10 warnings wouldn't be necessary at all, if God is hardening pharaoh's heart, as you're describing!


''But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said to Moses. King James Bible And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.'' Hebrews 9:12

It does not say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It tells us that the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart.

God hardened the pharaohs heart, so that he wouldn't listen to God? The texts doesn't imply that, because of it's contrast to the other relating verses, but then... with the words underlined, one can propose semantics, to technically promote a particular linguistic notion.

The word hearkened is synonymous with heed. Heed from given information. He hearken not unto them, shown below implies pharaohs heart hardened after hearing of the warnings, IOW pharaoh rather... was peed off.

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them;

An interesting thing about pharaohs is that they were understood in the ancient world, to be like divine gods themselves I wouldn't be surprised if this pharaoh just couldn't get over the thought that God of the Hebrews was more powerful than him. He tested the God of the Hebrews.


But let's say your interpretation is correct and we are dealing with poetic language....killing the innocent for the actions of the guilty is neither moral or just.

That is the point.

The deaths of the first born has significances ( traditions may vary) in the ancient world, 'which were done by many nations across the world'- This was the normality for that time... in war and human sacrifice, which is NOT a 'Commandment Law' for Hebrews (or Christians) to follow. Commandments came about because of the times, turning the Hebrews away from doing what the other nations were doing.


The first born deaths, the pharaohs had already thought of, was introduced by themselves, prior to the last chance, the 'tenth warning' from God, which eventually fell upon on themselves for their own first born.
Exodus 1:15,17,18,22

15 Then the king of Egypt told the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 “When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth, look at the child when you deliver it. If it’s a boy, kill it, but if it’s a girl, let it live.
17 However, the midwives feared God and didn’t obey the king of Egypt’s orders. They let the boys live. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives. He asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?”
22 Then Pharaoh commanded all his people to throw into the Nile every boy that was born, but to let every girl live.
 
Supposedly, Pharoah was worried that the Israelites were outbreeding the Egyptians. Who when they left Egypt had 600,000 men who could weild a sword. Shiprah and Puah, the two busiest midwives in history.
 
Supposedly, Pharoah was worried that the Israelites were outbreeding the Egyptians. Who when they left Egypt had 600,000 men who could weild a sword.
Exodus 1:22 has pharoah commanding all his people to throw every boy into the Nile.

Shiprah and Puah, the two busiest midwives in history.

Shiporah and Puah weren't busy in-the-way you seem to suggest - as its written... 'they didn't do what they were commanded' because they feared the Hebrew God! This should be interesting, because being Egyptians, these midwives believed in the God of the Hebrews! If we expand a little further along, this also touches upon the others in the exodus..., the 'multitude of mixed sundry sorts' who also left together with the Israelites.

Egyptians would know of the customs and worship of the Israelites, who have lived among them for hundreds of years. The painting of lambs blood on the door posts could also be performed by the Egyptians too - who like Shiprah and Puah feared the Hebrew God over pharaoh and Egyptian gods. I would think this sensible or obvious, that the Egyptians and anyone else, 'who feared the Hebrew God', would naturally follow the Israelites, sparing themselves from the wrath of God to 'pass over' them.


Exodus 12:12-14

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
 
https://bibleproject.com/articles/pharaohs-heart-grew-harder/#:~:text=After%20this%2C%20God%20gives%20Pharaoh,true%20threat%20to%20God's%20purposes.

When Pharaoh’s Heart Grew Harder​

by Tim Mackie 6 years ago​

"Let’s be honest, Exodus 1-18
is a super intense part of the biblical story, which raises some heavy theological questions. The epic showdown between God and Pharaoh over the fate of the enslaved Israelites is a page-turner. Pharaoh is a really bad man—actually the worst person we have met in the Bible so far. As you read these stories, you may be tempted to ask, who is really calling the shots here? Is it God? If so, why would he allow this? And why does this showdown become so violent and intense? If you want to get some context for this discussion, check out our video on Exodus Part 1."

Just adding some spice to the mix...

JaggedConfusedHypacrosaurus-size_restricted.gif
 
In Exodus, God hardens Pharoah's heart. Full stop. God gets full credit for the evils that follow. It is all an Oriental tall tale teller's Oriental tall tale. It never happened. That so many Christian theologians refuse to admit Pharoah was blameless and God was cruel and murderous is what people should focus on. There is no truth in Biblical apologists. No intellectual honesty. No common sense. If religion, the self proclaimed core values of Christian theologists cannot admit the tale's facts are the facts they are, intellectual dishonesy becomes their core values. And these theologians want everybody to be likewise, intellectually dishonest.
 
Paul gives the Christian answer in Romans 9, but it's a shitty answer:

For the scripture says to Pharaoh, 'I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.'...So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills... Who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will the clay say to the potter, 'Why have you molded me thus?'

Turns out God is more like Bashar al-Assad than Grandpa Walton.
 
DBT: It's Exodus 9:12, not Hebrews 9:12...

https://biblehub.com/exodus/9-12.htm

Look at the cross-references in this biblehub.com...I think I'm getting your point, but tell me again...

What was YHWH purpose when he hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

Yeah, Exodus. A memory glitch.

And as with all things, the purpose - as we are told in Romans - is to make His power known in a drama of His own creation;

''Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory'' - Romans 9:21-23

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4
 
Then there's the Gnostic belief that Yahweh is an evil demiurge, that He's the 'Satan' who is in charge of the world.
The gnostics belief has an interesting take, in that, for many Christians, Yahweh is the 'messenger of the Lord', who had authority to pass judgement, in parts of the old testament, who was NOT the father ( may provide the answer to some questions, like 'no one had seen the Father's face and lived etc..)- (Jesus will be judge again, in the end of days).

The gnostics version identifies there being two entities also! 'However... according to them (the gnostics) Yahweh is but an evil 'demi-god: but is not the the Father. It's been an interesting belief for many Christians, because this distorted narrative... Yahweh being parallel to Christ (as creator) hints a layer in this gnostic twisting as being anti-Jesus/ anti-christ underneath.

It's not twisting. It's a means of explaining the obviously cruel, intolerant and vindictive nature of Yahweh as described in the Old Testament, which is clearly not that of a God of Love.
It's a means of wishful thinking from your position. Explanations out-of-context are easy; you simply ignore all the verses (which there is quite a sum), like the context to wars with the Israelites and being righteous, turning from evil... to which God is strongly emphasised being the total opposite to your false characterisation.


Genocide, wholesale slaughter and rape is the context.
'That'll shalt not do any of the above' is one of the major contexts. There are several.
Yours context is a misuse of words.

The descriptions of the agency of God in relation to killing and genocide is the context for the morality of these actions. Killing the first born of Egypt for instance, the innocent slaughtered as a means to compell the Pharoah to act,
As I have already showed in a previous post. Pharaoh was given 10 chances to free the Israelites in which he refused 10 times. Who will defend the Israelites other than their God? In the last few centuries, nations have gone to war after 1 or 2 ultimatums, never mind 10.
even while hardening his heart. Morality? I don't think so.
Hardening Pharaohs heart is a result of his own stubbornness and refusal to let the Israelites go, despite the demise of his own people, which he didn't care until after 10 warnings...

I mean...the logic of atheists reading this text and making this is an argument. Those 10 warnings wouldn't be necessary at all, if God is hardening pharaoh's heart, as you're describing!


''But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said to Moses. King James Bible And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.'' Hebrews 9:12

It does not say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It tells us that the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart.

God hardened the pharaohs heart, so that he wouldn't listen to God? The texts doesn't imply that, because of it's contrast to the other relating verses, but then... with the words underlined, one can propose semantics, to technically promote a particular linguistic notion.

The word hearkened is synonymous with heed. Heed from given information. He hearken not unto them, shown below implies pharaohs heart hardened after hearing of the warnings, IOW pharaoh rather... was peed off.

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them;

An interesting thing about pharaohs is that they were understood in the ancient world, to be like divine gods themselves I wouldn't be surprised if this pharaoh just couldn't get over the thought that God of the Hebrews was more powerful than him. He tested the God of the Hebrews.


But let's say your interpretation is correct and we are dealing with poetic language....killing the innocent for the actions of the guilty is neither moral or just.

That is the point.

The deaths of the first born has significances ( traditions may vary) in the ancient world, 'which were done by many nations across the world'- This was the normality for that time... in war and human sacrifice, which is NOT a 'Commandment Law' for Hebrews (or Christians) to follow. Commandments came about because of the times, turning the Hebrews away from doing what the other nations were doing.


The first born deaths, the pharaohs had already thought of, was introduced by themselves, prior to the last chance, the 'tenth warning' from God, which eventually fell upon on themselves for their own first born.
Exodus 1:15,17,18,22

15 Then the king of Egypt told the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 “When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth, look at the child when you deliver it. If it’s a boy, kill it, but if it’s a girl, let it live.
17 However, the midwives feared God and didn’t obey the king of Egypt’s orders. They let the boys live. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives. He asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?”
22 Then Pharaoh commanded all his people to throw into the Nile every boy that was born, but to let every girl live.

The 'last chance' defense changes nothing in terms of the innocent being punished for the actions of the 'guilty.' Which is neither moral or just.

''For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.'' Exodus 12:23:
 
''The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'' Exodus 4:21
 
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