More Trouble In Israel

[untermensche]

The media has been carrying water for Palestinian terrorists for decades. What is different is that now we have the Squad which is taking the side of Hamas.

The US media has done nothing but give Israel's side for decades.

It is only Israel that considers these people terrorists.

They are considered by many to be an outgrowth of Israeli oppression (state terrorism aimed at a helpless population) that has gone on for decades.

You oppress people and there are consequences. People resist it.

That is natural.

 

[Jarhyn]

The media has been carrying water for Palestinian terrorists for decades. What is different is that now we have the Squad which is taking the side of Hamas.


No, they haven't got a clue. Israel is the good guys here. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are no different than Al Qaeda or ISIS.

Where’s Kamala? Has she made a statement?

She is half-Indian and Indians have suffered under Islamic terrorism as well. Remember Mumbai 2008?

Oh well. Back to mowing the grass.

Biden should give Bibi a carte blanche to proverbially till the grass over and plant a more wholesome ground cover than the nasty weeds of Hamas. No more half measures!

So, genocide then.

You are asking for a genocide, committed by those who were themselves genocided.

 

[lpetrich]

Meet the new progressive lawmaker challenging the D.C. consensus on Israel-Palestine - U.S. News - Haaretz.com
"Rep. Marie Newman is part of the new breed of Democrats who are unafraid to harshly criticize Israel for its actions or to demand human rights for all Palestinians, whether they be in Gaza or East Jerusalem"
(paywalled)

That may seem surprising, but she ran on a a firmly progressive platform, and she was elected with the support of the likes of the Justice Democrats.

Senior Israeli officials want to end Gaza war, but Netanyahu wants a clear victory - Israel News - Haaretz.com
"For Netanyahu, who ultimately has to determine Israel’s stance, ending the fighting with Hamas under the current circumstances is less than ideal"
(also paywalled)

So BN wants to win at whatever the cost.

 

[lpetrich]

Israel and Hamas Fighting Raises Questions about War Crimes - The New York Times - "Civilian deaths on both sides raise urgent questions about which military actions are legal, what war crimes are being committed and who, if anyone, will be held to account."

Civilians are paying an especially high price in the latest bout of violence between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, raising urgent questions about how the laws of war apply to the conflagration: which military actions are legal, what war crimes are being committed and who, if anyone, will ever be held to account.

Both sides appear to be violating those laws, experts said: Hamas has fired more than 3,000 rockets toward Israeli cities and towns, a clear war crime. And Israel, although it says it takes measures to avoid civilian casualties, has subjected Gaza to such an intense bombardment, killing families and flattening buildings, that it likely constitutes a disproportionate use of force — also a war crime.

...
Human rights groups, however, say that Israel routinely pushes the boundaries of what might be considered proportionate military force, and that it has frequently breached the laws of war. “There’s been an utter disregard for civilian life that stems from the decades of impunity,” said Omar Shakir, Israel director for Human Rights Watch.

Mr. Shakir and others said Israel’s staunch alliance with the United States, which gives the country $3.8 billion in military aid every year and offers reflexive diplomatic support, has shielded its actions from serious international censure for decades, emboldening it to commit abuses against Palestinians.

The article then discussed what seems like a rather lax policy in the Israeli armed forces about killing Palestinian civilians.

Others push back on Israel’s insistence that Hamas is to blame for the civilian casualties because it operates from residential areas. In a densely populated place like Gaza, “there is almost no way to fight from it without exposing civilians to danger,” said Nathan Thrall, author of a book on Israel and the Palestinians.

Mr. Thrall noted that the headquarters of the Israel Defense Forces was in a residential part of Tel Aviv, beside a hospital and an art museum.

It's going to be hard to drag the leaders of either Israel or Hamas into the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

 

[lpetrich]

EXPLAINER: Are Israel, Hamas committing war crimes in Gaza?

More than a week into their fourth war, Israel and the Hamas militant group already face allegations of possible war crimes in Gaza. Israel says Hamas is using Palestinian civilians as human shields, while critics say Israel is using disproportionate force.

Who’s right? It’s hard to say, especially in the fog of battle.

The firing of hundreds of imprecise rockets into Israel by Hamas and other Palestinian groups is fairly clear-cut. International law prohibits targeting civilians or using indiscriminate force in civilian areas. Rockets slamming into Tel Aviv apartment blocks is a clear violation.

But in Gaza, where 2 million people are packed into a narrow coastal strip, the situation is far murkier. Both sides operate in dense, urban terrain because that’s pretty much all there is. Because of the tight space and intense bombardments, there are few safe places for Gazans to go. A blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt after Hamas seized power in 2007 makes it virtually impossible to leave.

Islamic nations slam Israel — and each other's ties to it

 

[Jarhyn]

Israel and Hamas Fighting Raises Questions about War Crimes - The New York Times - "Civilian deaths on both sides raise urgent questions about which military actions are legal, what war crimes are being committed and who, if anyone, will be held to account."

Civilians are paying an especially high price in the latest bout of violence between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, raising urgent questions about how the laws of war apply to the conflagration: which military actions are legal, what war crimes are being committed and who, if anyone, will ever be held to account.

Both sides appear to be violating those laws, experts said: Hamas has fired more than 3,000 rockets toward Israeli cities and towns, a clear war crime. And Israel, although it says it takes measures to avoid civilian casualties, has subjected Gaza to such an intense bombardment, killing families and flattening buildings, that it likely constitutes a disproportionate use of force — also a war crime.

...
Human rights groups, however, say that Israel routinely pushes the boundaries of what might be considered proportionate military force, and that it has frequently breached the laws of war. “There’s been an utter disregard for civilian life that stems from the decades of impunity,” said Omar Shakir, Israel director for Human Rights Watch.

Mr. Shakir and others said Israel’s staunch alliance with the United States, which gives the country $3.8 billion in military aid every year and offers reflexive diplomatic support, has shielded its actions from serious international censure for decades, emboldening it to commit abuses against Palestinians.

The article then discussed what seems like a rather lax policy in the Israeli armed forces about killing Palestinian civilians.

Others push back on Israel’s insistence that Hamas is to blame for the civilian casualties because it operates from residential areas. In a densely populated place like Gaza, “there is almost no way to fight from it without exposing civilians to danger,” said Nathan Thrall, author of a book on Israel and the Palestinians.

Mr. Thrall noted that the headquarters of the Israel Defense Forces was in a residential part of Tel Aviv, beside a hospital and an art museum.

It's going to be hard to drag the leaders of either Israel or Hamas into the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

I see. So, the answer then to make your genocide acceptable must just be to cram them all in a tiny space so any attempt to fight back can be used to "justify*" killing more of them.

*No such thing as a justified death or murder
**Not making any attempt to shoot the messenger

 

[laughing dog]

No, they haven't got a clue. Israel is the good guys here. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are no different than Al Qaeda or ISIS.

There are no "good guys" here. There are least bad guys.

Biden should give Bibi a carte blanche to proverbially till the grass over and plant a more wholesome ground cover than the nasty weeds of Hamas. No more half measures!

Why should anyone take policy solutions seriously from someone who endorses mass murder?

 

[bilby]

The leaders on both sides are a bunch of cunts, and the only solution would be to move the entire nation state of Israel lock, stock, and barrel to the United States. Give them a big chunk of desert the same size as their current nation, taken from Nevada and Arizona, and maybe a bit of Eastern California.

Why should Israel be the one to move? It's the land of Israel, not Arabia.
How about moving so-called Palestinians to the Sinai desert or something. Since they call "Jerusalem" by the fake name "Al Quds", they can build a city by that name and even move the so-called Al Aqsa mosque there brick by brick.

Because the fucking Palestinians would be so fucking welcome in the USofA that world peace would bankrupt the firearms industry.

And the Sinai Desert is FAR too fucking close. These cunts will keep fighting each other until there's an ocean between them.

But don't let me dictate to you - you pick. One or other of these groups are coming to a new homeland in what's now the USA. Pick which one will be your new neighbours. Toss a coin. Whatever. I don't frankly give two shits if anyone doesn't like it, as long as people stop pointlessly dying over it.

No arguments, points of principle, histories, or grand moral ideals need apply; People need to stop being killed, and as they won't pick leaders who don't want to kill people, they need to be physically separated.

Fuck, they can BOTH leave for all I care. Move Israel to the USA and Palestine to Siberia, and sow the ground with Cobalt-60 so no fucker can ever go back.

 

[barbos]

Israel to the USA and Palestine to Siberia,

I must protest. I don't need them here. Plus Jews are already here (Far East) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

 

[Harry Bosch]

Oh boy, now the hypocrites are coming out! Putin came out this morning warning Israel that the deaths of any more civilians won't be tolerated! Who are they to talk? Gazans attacked civilians first. The Ukranians did not attack Russian civilians. However, Russia killed an estimated 5,000 civilians when they took Crimera in 2014. American was not great either in either Afghanistan or Iraq in minimizing civilian deaths. Next we'll have China lecturing on the necessity that we should be nice to our neighbors...

 

[Jarhyn]

Oh boy, now the hypocrites are coming out! Putin came out this morning warning Israel that the deaths of any more civilians won't be tolerated! Who are they to talk? Gazans attacked civilians first. The Ukranians did not attack Russian civilians. However, Russia killed an estimated 5,000 civilians when they took Crimera in 2014. American was not great either in either Afghanistan or Iraq in minimizing civilian deaths. Next we'll have China lecturing on the necessity that we should be nice to our neighbors...

No. "Gazans" didn't attack anyone. Some specific individuals attacked.

"Gazans" are not a monolithic chunk of people. They do not share collective guilt or innocence.

Does the hypocrisy change the reality that two wrongs still don't make a right?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Oh boy, now the hypocrites are coming out! Putin came out this morning warning Israel that the deaths of any more civilians won't be tolerated! Who are they to talk? Gazans attacked civilians first. The Ukranians did not attack Russian civilians. However, Russia killed an estimated 5,000 civilians when they took Crimera in 2014. American was not great either in either Afghanistan or Iraq in minimizing civilian deaths. Next we'll have China lecturing on the necessity that we should be nice to our neighbors...

No. "Gazans" didn't attack anyone. Some specific individuals attacked.

"Gazans" are not a monolithic chunk of people. They do not share collective guilt or innocence.

Does the hypocrisy change the reality that two wrongs still don't make a right?

Where did I say that two wrongs make a right? I said that many countries and their leaders are very hypocritical.

 

[Jarhyn]

Oh boy, now the hypocrites are coming out! Putin came out this morning warning Israel that the deaths of any more civilians won't be tolerated! Who are they to talk? Gazans attacked civilians first. The Ukranians did not attack Russian civilians. However, Russia killed an estimated 5,000 civilians when they took Crimera in 2014. American was not great either in either Afghanistan or Iraq in minimizing civilian deaths. Next we'll have China lecturing on the necessity that we should be nice to our neighbors...

No. "Gazans" didn't attack anyone. Some specific individuals attacked.

"Gazans" are not a monolithic chunk of people. They do not share collective guilt or innocence.

Does the hypocrisy change the reality that two wrongs still don't make a right?

Where did I say that two wrongs make a right? I said that many countries and their leaders are very hypocritical.

Quit acting like you don't know what I'm talking about. Rank, childish dishonesty serves nobody, and that's what this post is.

"Who are they to talk" means they shouldn't say it. That it shouldn't be said. If someone else can say it so can they. They will merely also have to suffer it being said of them.

I reiterate: "gazans" did it do jack shit, it was specific individuals and Gaza does not share collective guilt for this. OF your two statements, this is the primary content of my post and if you cannot speak to that and must derail about hypocrisy, that's further a very bad image you paint of yourself with your positions.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Where did I say that two wrongs make a right? I said that many countries and their leaders are very hypocritical.

Quit acting like you don't know what I'm talking about. Rank, childish dishonesty serves nobody, and that's what this post is.

"Who are they to talk" means they shouldn't say it. That it shouldn't be said. If someone else can say it so can they. They will merely also have to suffer it being said of them.

I reiterate: "gazans" did it do jack shit, it was specific individuals and Gaza does not share collective guilt for this. OF your two statements, this is the primary content of my post and if you cannot speak to that and must derail about hypocrisy, that's further a very bad image you paint of yourself with your positions.

My statement was based on Putin's statement today. At the end of the day, Israel is attacking Gaza in order to stop the missiles. This action is leading to civilian deaths. Russia attacked Ukraine because they wanted a water port for their generals to retire to. This action lead to the death of civilians. If you are honestly even equating the action of the two, I can't help you. Sorry...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The leaders on both sides are a bunch of cunts, and the only solution would be to move the entire nation state of Israel lock, stock, and barrel to the United States. Give them a big chunk of desert the same size as their current nation, taken from Nevada and Arizona, and maybe a bit of Eastern California.

Why should Israel be the one to move? It's the land of Israel, not Arabia.
How about moving so-called Palestinians to the Sinai desert or something. Since they call "Jerusalem" by the fake name "Al Quds", they can build a city by that name and even move the so-called Al Aqsa mosque there brick by brick.

Because the fucking Palestinians would be so fucking welcome in the USofA that world peace would bankrupt the firearms industry.

And the Sinai Desert is FAR too fucking close. These cunts will keep fighting each other until there's an ocean between them.

But don't let me dictate to you - you pick. One or other of these groups are coming to a new homeland in what's now the USA. Pick which one will be your new neighbours. Toss a coin. Whatever. I don't frankly give two shits if anyone doesn't like it, as long as people stop pointlessly dying over it.

No arguments, points of principle, histories, or grand moral ideals need apply; People need to stop being killed, and as they won't pick leaders who don't want to kill people, they need to be physically separated.

Fuck, they can BOTH leave for all I care. Move Israel to the USA and Palestine to Siberia, and sow the ground with Cobalt-60 so no fucker can ever go back.

Co-60 would at best work for about 50 years.

 

[Jarhyn]

Where did I say that two wrongs make a right? I said that many countries and their leaders are very hypocritical.

Quit acting like you don't know what I'm talking about. Rank, childish dishonesty serves nobody, and that's what this post is.

"Who are they to talk" means they shouldn't say it. That it shouldn't be said. If someone else can say it so can they. They will merely also have to suffer it being said of them.

I reiterate: "gazans" did it do jack shit, it was specific individuals and Gaza does not share collective guilt for this. OF your two statements, this is the primary content of my post and if you cannot speak to that and must derail about hypocrisy, that's further a very bad image you paint of yourself with your positions.

My statement was based on Putin's statement today. At the end of the day, Israel is attacking Gaza in order to stop the missiles. This action is leading to civilian deaths. Russia attacked Ukraine because they wanted a water port for their generals to retire to. This action lead to the death of civilians. If you are honestly even equating the action of the two, I can't help you. Sorry...

Israel is attacking a large number of gazans to stop a small subgroup of them. That is collective punishment for individual guilt.

How do you not understand that when a population repeatedly has it demonstrated to them, shown to them through the repeated application of it that collective punishment for individual action is how the world works, that they are going to think on picking up rockets and do likewise?

I reiterate "Gazans" didn't do jack shit. Don't pretend this is about "Gazans". Israel already likens this genocide to cutting grass.

Gazans didn't do shit. The side with the army, am educated population, and a functional government is committing a fucking genocide, one "response" at a time, with responses engineered to generate more responses.

I reiterate, third time now and done, if you cannot speak to that and must derail about hypocrisy, that's further a very bad image you paint of yourself with your positions.

 

[Harry Bosch]

My statement was based on Putin's statement today. At the end of the day, Israel is attacking Gaza in order to stop the missiles. This action is leading to civilian deaths. Russia attacked Ukraine because they wanted a water port for their generals to retire to. This action lead to the death of civilians. If you are honestly even equating the action of the two, I can't help you. Sorry...

Israel is attacking a large number of gazans to stop a small subgroup of them. That is collective punishment for individual guilt.

How do you not understand that when a population repeatedly has it demonstrated to them, shown to them through the repeated application of it that collective punishment for individual action is how the world works, that they are going to think on picking up rockets and do likewise?

I reiterate "Gazans" didn't do jack shit. Don't pretend this is about "Gazans". Israel already likens this genocide to cutting grass.

Gazans didn't do shit. The side with the army, am educated population, and a functional government is committing a fucking genocide, one "response" at a time, with responses engineered to generate more responses.

I reiterate, third time now and done, if you cannot speak to that and must derail about hypocrisy, that's further a very bad image you paint of yourself with your positions.

Israel/Gaza is not a special situation unique to history. Civilians always suffer for the actions of their leaders. And Gaza is lead by Hamas. Just like North Koreans are lead by Kim, Scottish are lead by Boris, and the US is lead by Biden (sorry Trumpsters). My problem here is that you want to paint the actions of Israel as uniquely evil and uncommon in the world. And my point is that those who live in glass houses (Russia, China, The US) should be careful. It's fine to push for a ceasefire and peace. But to solely blame one side will not lead to peace.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, this slow genocide of Israel against Palestine, fomenting an ugly anger over senseless murder deep enough to bring response, and then using that response as a fig leaf to continue said slow genocide, reminds me of a thing I have seen Isreal also do.

There's this rule in Hasidic orthodoxy and perhaps other segments of Isreal where you are not allowed to light a fire on the Sabbath. So as not to consider throwing away such nonsense when we discovered there was more to the world -- rather than accept that the desert screechings a out what makes things holy may be so much mere words by mere men -- they declared that connecting a circuit was starting a fire.

But, that made for a problem, because that meant no electronics on Saturdays, and electronics are useful. So they committed a true act of lawful neutral, and pretended to circumvent it by once ting a phone that you work by breaking circuits, which stayed open for a time, long enough to reset the switch manually. Or something. It looked like an 60's era phone but operated with a stick that you were supposed to shove into holes to separate the contactors.

All this craziness just to abide by the letter and completely violate the intent of a law.

And so now we apply this same kind of weaselry to genocide.

But the fact remains that it is still a fucking genocide, no matter the fig leaf. Just like it's still taking agency to 'light a fire' operating a phone.

 

[barbos]

The Ukranians did not attack Russian civilians.

True, they attacked ethnic russian civilians in Ukraine.

However, Russia killed an estimated 5,000 civilians when they took Crimera in 2014.

Where did you get this shit?

American was not great either in either Afghanistan or Iraq in minimizing civilian deaths. Next we'll have China lecturing on the necessity that we should be nice to our neighbors...

Lecturing is what politicians do.

 

[Jarhyn]

My statement was based on Putin's statement today. At the end of the day, Israel is attacking Gaza in order to stop the missiles. This action is leading to civilian deaths. Russia attacked Ukraine because they wanted a water port for their generals to retire to. This action lead to the death of civilians. If you are honestly even equating the action of the two, I can't help you. Sorry...

Israel is attacking a large number of gazans to stop a small subgroup of them. That is collective punishment for individual guilt.

How do you not understand that when a population repeatedly has it demonstrated to them, shown to them through the repeated application of it that collective punishment for individual action is how the world works, that they are going to think on picking up rockets and do likewise?

I reiterate "Gazans" didn't do jack shit. Don't pretend this is about "Gazans". Israel already likens this genocide to cutting grass.

Gazans didn't do shit. The side with the army, am educated population, and a functional government is committing a fucking genocide, one "response" at a time, with responses engineered to generate more responses.

I reiterate, third time now and done, if you cannot speak to that and must derail about hypocrisy, that's further a very bad image you paint of yourself with your positions.

Israel/Gaza is not a special situation unique to history. Civilians always suffer for the actions of their leaders. And Gaza is lead by Hamas. Just like North Koreans are lead by Kim, Scottish are lead by Boris, and the US is lead by Biden (sorry Trumpsters). My problem here is that you want to paint the actions of Israel as uniquely evil and uncommon in the world. And my point is that those who live in glass houses (Russia, China, The US) should be careful. It's fine to push for a ceasefire and peace. But to solely blame one side will not lead to peace.

Quit apologising for genocide. The people of Gaza can no more oust Hamas than Alabama can oust the GOP. If the people of Gaza must cash this check for people who they have no power to remove, and whom have been engineered to be the threat they are specifically for this genocide, then Isreal must be destroyed as a nation utterly and pushed back into the sea for their literal policy of "an order of magnitude of murder shall be returned"

But, I don't believe that.

Good to see you finally supporting Palestine, though, I guess? Actually, no. Thats still a bad position to have