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More Trouble In Israel

They are complicated, full of biases, and with radicals pushing agendas while everyone else suffers.


This is the real problem!

Regular folks, Muslims and Jews, can easily coexist. Their traditional cultures just aren't that different.

The problem is the religionist ideologues in power. Islamist, Zionist, and frankly, Christianists. They don't want "Peace with Justice", because that would weaken their grip on power.

If the little people turned on them and "drove them into the sea" the whole human race would benefit. But, like politicians everywhere, the leadership knows how to manipulate the little people into doing stupid things against the best interests of the little people.
Tom
 
Seems to me that Israeli hardliners and Hamas are two peas in a pod. Each side says "Their attacks on innocent civilians are so horrible that we must do that to them."
It would be more accurate to say that the Squad and Hamas are like peas in a pod. Leftists have always seen Islamists as natural allies. Especially when it comes to their mutual enemy Israel.
Man, a sign of obsession is constantly referring to something that has nothing to do with the topic.

Israel v Hamas.

Damn Squad!

Tom Brady wins another Super Bowl

Damn Squad!

Bowels not doing their job.

Damn Squad!

The issues between Israel and the Palestine predate "The Squad"... or the birth of anyone in "The Squad". They are complicated, full of biases, and with radicals pushing agendas while everyone else suffers. The one time there was an inkling of giving Hamas enough rope to hang themselves, the West decided to just ignore it and the conflict extended into a phase that was worse than even a stalemate. Palestinians are third class citizens, Hamas will do whatever to stir the pot, natural resources are hoarded by the Israelis, Iran et al don't want anything resembling peace for the Palestinians, Israel hasn't had a government in a a couple years.

Squad Derangement Syndrome (SDS) is running rampant on the extreme right...
 
There is a solution - allow Israel to defeat Hamas instead of international community pressuring them to agree to a cease fire that merely allows Hamas and Islamic Jihad to replenish their arsenal from Big Daddy Iran.
The international community has no such leverage over Israel. It's Israel's own choice not to "defeat Hamas", by which you mean murdering every single person in Gaza.
Um, I'm pretty sure that's not what Derec means by "defeat Hamas".

Israel can't defeat Hamas for the same reason the US hasn't defeated ISIS, Al Qaeda or Taleban. There are always some people left who vow revenge and carry out attacks. At best, you can destroy their weapons and infrastructure to a point that they are temporarily crippled. This is what Israel has been doing and is doing now. But if it wanted to root out Hamas, it would mean either eliminating every potential terrorist i.e. everyone in Gaza, or reoccupying the strip and maintaining constant control.
You say that as though Hamas has no rivals for political allegiance among the Palestinians -- no opposition parties ready and waiting to take over the job of governing Palestinians any time Hamas stops or is forced to stop preventing a rematch of the 2006 election.
 
The Jews didn't found the Zionist state. Western powers, fresh off WWII did.
That is simply not true.
Yes it is true. The State of Israel exists because the EuroChristian colonial powers that won WWII dominated the U.N. decided to create it. They were accustomed to drawing borders wherever they found convenient, with little regard for the people who already lived there.

And Jews obviously have been hated by the indigenous people of Israel for a long time.
Jews are the indigenous people of the Land of Israel. Palestinians are Arabs, not indigenous to the Land of Israel.
Here it is from the horse's mouth, so to speak, starting at about 1:45.


You are completely missing the point to your video. The guy is pointing out that Palestinians have deep roots in the region. He wants help from their religious and cultural brethren.
That's very different from someone with deep roots in Europe or Russia or wherever. They might be Jewish, but they're not indigenous by any stretch of the imagination.

Unless you consider ancient Scripture a land deed signed by Almighty God.
I do not.
Tom
 
[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">One of many reasons I love Ireland and its people. <br>Love<br>R.<br><br>PS I bet the Israeli Ambassador’s answer was a hoot. So I do. <a href="https://t.co/YFXjUsofD4">pic.twitter.com/YFXjUsofD4</a></p>— Roger Waters (@rogerwaters) <a href="https://twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1392556084527783938?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]..
 
[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Israel just intentionally destroyed press offices in Gaza, giving only one hour's warning. Associated Press President "horrified that the Israeli military would target and destroy news organizations in Gaza." <br><br>Imagine this was your home:<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/8fGMaIBASP">https://t.co/8fGMaIBASP</a> <a href="https://t.co/gcGcDukX5j">pic.twitter.com/gcGcDukX5j</a></p>— Edward Snowden (@Snowden) <a href="https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1393594802927718405?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 15, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]..
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion
The correlation between wealth and religion has been subject to academic research. Wealth is the status of being the beneficiary or proprietor of a large accumulation of capital and economic power.
...
According to a study from 2015, Christians hold the largest amount of wealth (55% of the total world wealth), followed by Muslims (5.8%), Hindus (3.3%), and Jews (1.1%). According to the same study it was found that adherents under the classification Irreligion or other religions hold about 34.8% of the total global wealth.[3]
...
A study in the United States (based on data from 1985 to 1998), conducted by the sociologist Lisa A. Keister and published in the Social Forces journal, found that adherents of Judaism and Episcopalianism[5] accumulated the most wealth, believers in Catholicism and mainline Protestants were in the middle, while conservative Protestants accumulated the least; in general, people who attend religious services accumulated more wealth than those who do not (taking into account variations of education and other factors).[6] Keister suggested that wealth accumulation is shaped by family processes.[7] According to the study, the median net worth of people believing in Judaism is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was US$26,200. The overall median in the dataset was US$48,200.
...
something going on here.
 
No. The Palestinians have the right to tanks and jets and if Israel continues to oppress they have the right to use them.

When you oppress people for decades you deserve what you get in return.
You are contradicting yourself. You think Palestinians have the right to indiscriminately kill Isrealis (which is what they are doing now). You also claim that Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians. Therefore, if you were consistent, you would conclude that Israel can indiscriminately kill Palestinians. According to your own logic.

Hamas has been killing Israelis for decades too, so you are failing to make any distinction between the two sides in that respect also.

That's a joke. The Israeli oppression and theft has gone on for decades now.

To think the Palestinians started anything shows incredible ignorance of the history.
Hamas started this round of shooting. Israel did nothing in Gaza to warrant it. On the other hand, Israel's reaction is rational and predictable: when you get shot at, you shoot back. Hamas knew perfectly well what it would lead to, and started shooting anyway. All the lives lost in Gaza are squarely Hamas's fault.

Well, I am not saying either of those things. If Hamas wants to buy a fleet of F35 fighters and develop nuclear weapons like Israel, it has just as much right as Israel to do that. Those are just hard things to do for a batshit insane fascist cults like Hamas.

The US GAVE Israel it's weapons.

The US saved Israel's ass in 73 and has used Israel as a US military outpost ever since.

The US has vetoed UN Resolution after Resolution to protect Israel from the consequences of it's crimes and allowed it to behave criminally towards the Palestinians for decades.

Insane cults arise from decades of oppression.
And does that give Hamas the right to kill not only Israelis (they've not done a very good job at it, based on the numbers) but its own people? Someone else's oppression is a very poor excuse to be an oppressor yourself.
 
If you kidnap me and hold me against my will and torture me for decades you do not get to cry about me hitting you over the head with a lamp as I try to escape your oppression.
Bad comparison. Hamas' actions are not helping them "escape oppression". In fact it makes the oppression worse, at least for the people in West Bank.
 
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez Gives Speech in Support of Palestinian Rights - YouTube
She recalled growing up near Vieques Island, used for practice bombing runs.

She then mentioned Israel not allowing Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar to visit. She suspected that confronting the imprisonment of children in Israel may bring up the issue of the imprisonment of children on our southern border. Then why the US protects Israel with its UN Security-Council vetoes. She mentioned the issue of Israel's right to self-defense, and she asked if Palestinians have a right to survive.


As I write this, today is Nakba Day, the anniversary of the day after the end of British rule of Palestine and Israel's declaration of independence. On that day, one day after that declaration, armies from Israel's Arab neighbors entered that new nation and tried to destroy it. They were defeated and the State of Israel gained territory.

That day wasn't even the beginning of fighting. It started some months earlier, with some Palestinians fleeing their homeland into neighboring countries. That was after the UN proposed its Solomonic peace plan:
 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
Solomonic?
 Judgement of Solomon
The Judgement of Solomon is a story from the Hebrew Bible in which Solomon ruled between two women both claiming to be the mother of a child. Solomon revealed their true feelings and relationship to the child by suggesting the baby be cut in two, each woman to receive half. With this strategy, he was able to discern the non-mother as the woman who entirely approved of this proposal, while the actual mother begged that the sword might be sheathed and the child committed to the care of her rival. Some consider this approach to justice an archetypal example of an impartial judge displaying wisdom in making a ruling.
The Zionist leadership went along with that plan, though it hoped to later acquire more land. Arab leaders didn't, and it was neither the first time nor the last time that they rejected a deal that would have contained the Zionists.
 
Actually, this isn't true. The Sheikh Jarrah area is owned by a couple Jewish people. They were granted this land by Jordan in 1950 or so. The Arab tenants has valid leases then. They have lived there for a long time. But they stropped paying their lease. They violated their lease. They really have no legal standing to this property anymore. If this happened to you or I, we'd be evicted. I do think that some kind of compromise needs to be found for political reasons. But to launch thousands of missiles because of this is an affront to the law.

What are the borders of Israel?

What are the borders of Israel recognized by the UN?

Your formula for justice is this:

1. You oppress people and destroy their economy.

2. When they can't pay their bills you evict them with violence.

Border's don't determine landlord/tenat rights. The local law does. I will agree that the Palestinians have been screwed (much of this due to their awful leaders over the years). But is it your view that they shouldn't have to pay rent if their landlord is Jewish? What if their landlord were American Indian or Australian or whatever?
The ownership is Jewish only according to Israeli law. Palestinians are arguing that the documents used to turn over the property to the jews were forged, but then again, the Israelis are saying the same thing about the documents Palestinians used. So who knows.

I think there is also a matter of jurisdiction. According to international law, East Jerusalem is considered occupied territory. I would argue that Israel doesn't have the right, under the fourth Geneva Convention, to hand over the ownership of the buildings to private Jewish groups. Israel of course doesn't recognize any of this.

Morally though? The Palestinian families have lived in the neighborhood for 70 years. Jewish nationalists who have never lived there want to kick them out for ideological reasons, using unfair Israeli laws. My sympathies are definitely with the tenants on this one.
 
Um, I'm pretty sure that's not what Derec means by "defeat Hamas".

Israel can't defeat Hamas for the same reason the US hasn't defeated ISIS, Al Qaeda or Taleban. There are always some people left who vow revenge and carry out attacks. At best, you can destroy their weapons and infrastructure to a point that they are temporarily crippled. This is what Israel has been doing and is doing now. But if it wanted to root out Hamas, it would mean either eliminating every potential terrorist i.e. everyone in Gaza, or reoccupying the strip and maintaining constant control.
You say that as though Hamas has no rivals for political allegiance among the Palestinians -- no opposition parties ready and waiting to take over the job of governing Palestinians any time Hamas stops or is forced to stop preventing a rematch of the 2006 election.
And what do you think it'd take to force Hamas to do that? I stand by my assessment: it means either genocide or re-occupation.
 
Border's don't determine landlord/tenat rights. The local law does. I will agree that the Palestinians have been screwed (much of this due to their awful leaders over the years). But is it your view that they shouldn't have to pay rent if their landlord is Jewish? What if their landlord were American Indian or Australian or whatever?
The ownership is Jewish only according to Israeli law. Palestinians are arguing that the documents used to turn over the property to the jews were forged, but then again, the Israelis are saying the same thing about the documents Palestinians used. So who knows.

I think there is also a matter of jurisdiction. According to international law, East Jerusalem is considered occupied territory. I would argue that Israel doesn't have the right, under the fourth Geneva Convention, to hand over the ownership of the buildings to private Jewish groups. Israel of course doesn't recognize any of this.

Morally though? The Palestinian families have lived in the neighborhood for 70 years. Jewish nationalists who have never lived there want to kick them out for ideological reasons, using unfair Israeli laws. My sympathies are definitely with the tenants on this one.

Yep, I agree with you.
 
If you kidnap me and hold me against my will and torture me for decades you do not get to cry about me hitting you over the head with a lamp as I try to escape your oppression.
Bad comparison. Hamas' actions are not helping them "escape oppression". In fact it makes the oppression worse, at least for the people in West Bank.

They are resisting oppression. The Boy Scouts do not rise up in the face of oppression. Very angry dangerous people arise within oppression.

They are trying to escape a powerful immoral monster.

But the monster is so much stronger the efforts seem futile.

Behaving peacefully has never once gained the Palestinians a thing.

Israel just keeps stealing land and throwing Palestinians out of their homes.
 
They are resisting oppression.
They are not "resisting oppression". They are oppressing Palestinian people and are seeking to destroy Israel.

That you are here defending islamofascist Hamas is truly deplorable. The ideology behind Hamas and Islamic Jihad is the same ideology that underlies Al Qaeda and ISIS. In fact, Palestinians showed their true colors in September 2001.
Israel mourns, Palestinians celebrate / Terrorism against U.S. resonates in Mideast

They are trying to escape a powerful immoral monster.
Hamas IS the powerful, immoral monster! As is their patron, the illegitimate theocratic regime in Tehran.

Behaving peacefully has never once gained the Palestinians a thing.
They never tried. Israel signed plenty of peace treaties, e.g. with Egypt. Palestinians had plenty of chances for the same, but they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Israel just keeps stealing land and throwing Palestinians out of their homes.
Not their homes. And even if they were, a dispute over real estate ownership is not a legitimate reason for a war of aggression which Hamas has started - yet again. More than 2000 rockets have been fired on Israel. Hundreds of those landed within the Strip, sometimes killing Gazans - but Hamas does not care if Gazan children are injured or killed. If they kill a Palestinian kid, so much the better as it is a propaganda coup for them. They just blame it on Israel anyway, and the useful idiots in the West like AOC and some posters on here lap up whatever Hamas is dishing.
 
No.

The Palestinians do not have to do anything to have the right to defend themselves from Israel.

They already have that right.

It is simply being denied them with continual violence.



This is what oppression gets you.

You do not have the right to oppress people then oppress them more because they resist.



No, they do not.

Only to the immoral with double standards based on prejudice.
What Hamas is doing is not "resistance". It's aimed not at Jerusalem or the illegal colonies, but Tel Aviv and other parts of Israel that are not disputed. Israel did absolutely nothing in Gaza to warrant this attack; it was Hamas who decided that they can murder innocent people (including their own) because Israel was evicting people from Jerusalem. I guess they didn't want to be left out of the party, and now hundreds of Palestinians are paying the price of Hamas's actions.

Do you have a right to murder any Chinese person you see because China is committing atrocities in Xinjiang, Tibet or Hong Kong? Of course not. It's not legitimate resistance if you are not being oppressed, or if you are not targeting the source of the oppression. It's just plain old terrorism.

From my reading Hamas didn't attack until after the Israelis stormed peaceful worshippers at the al Aqsa mosque and injured over 300 of them.
 
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