Mueller investigation

[Malintent]

Hate to be a bubble-buster about the wire thing... It makes sense and I would hope it is true... however, the court papers associated with his (previously secret) criminal trial indicate that he was ordered to "make no contact with any person affiliated with [the campaign]". So wearing a wire and talking to these guys would have been a violation in the court's eyes. It could aslo have been an intentional smoke screen so that if anything done there leaked, it would not look like he was turned.

"hey, it's me, George.. look, I'm not really supposed to be talking to you right now, but I really need to who that was that you met with.... I don't want my story messing you up..."

Can you link me to that? It's not in his indictment and that's all I can find.

It's not in the indictment, it is in the court records that were unsealed upon delivery of the indictment. To be able to have a judge seal the transcripts of a hearing, the argument for why they must be sealed is made... and then that argument becomes sealed along with all the other information. Not as part of the argument, but as part of the decision on the limits of George's freedoms as agreed upon in the plea deal, he was told to not make any contact with any campaign participant.

 

[funinspace]

True, but that applies to far too many Dums as well....

Dums?

Which AM talk radio show did you hear that clever gem from? That's even more clever than saying Democrat instead Democratic. Because they're rats. Get it? Democrats. Haw haw, that is a clever one!

LOL...ah the 'AM talk radio snear'...so original and clever. I've been using the term Dums for a few years, probably heard of it on Pandora or not. I could call them the Democins, along with the Republocrats...if you like.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not as part of the argument, but as part of the decision on the limits of George's freedoms as agreed upon in the plea deal, he was told to not make any contact with any campaign participant.

Just curious, could that be read as 'unsupervised' contact? Would that count if he's directed to make contact, while wearing a mic, for the purpose of providing further evidence for the investigators?

It's not really a freedom if he has to have his handler know about all contacts.

I mean, at least on TV, they never stop an undercover sting because they realize their patsy is on parole, and not allowed to consort with known felons, when the person they're trying to sting is a known felon....

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Not as part of the argument, but as part of the decision on the limits of George's freedoms as agreed upon in the plea deal, he was told to not make any contact with any campaign participant.

Just curious, could that be read as 'unsupervised' contact? Would that count if he's directed to make contact, while wearing a mic, for the purpose of providing further evidence for the investigators?

It's not really a freedom if he has to have his handler know about all contacts.

I mean, at least on TV, they never stop an undercover sting because they realize their patsy is on parole, and not allowed to consort with known felons, when the person they're trying to sting is a known felon....

I'd think that it would be kind of hard for Papa to be used on stings anymore, given that it's been widely reported that he's been recording conversations for the FBI in exchange for a reduced sentence. I doubt many people would be willing to share much in the way of incriminating evidence with him anymore.

Then again, we are talking about a group of idiots, so who can say what they'd do.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Just curious, could that be read as 'unsupervised' contact? Would that count if he's directed to make contact, while wearing a mic, for the purpose of providing further evidence for the investigators?

It's not really a freedom if he has to have his handler know about all contacts.

I mean, at least on TV, they never stop an undercover sting because they realize their patsy is on parole, and not allowed to consort with known felons, when the person they're trying to sting is a known felon....

I'd think that it would be kind of hard for Papa to be used on stings anymore, given that it's been widely reported that he's been recording conversations for the FBI in exchange for a reduced sentence. I doubt many people would be willing to share much in the way of incriminating evidence with him anymore.

Then again, we are talking about a group of idiots, so who can say what they'd do.

Donald Trump: Are you wearing a wire?
Alexi Lallas: Umm... err... well... I umm... No.
Donald Trump: So any word on Putin accepting our offer of Alaska in exchange for cancelling my debt to his companies?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Can you link me to that? It's not in his indictment and that's all I can find.

It's not in the indictment, it is in the court records that were unsealed upon delivery of the indictment. To be able to have a judge seal the transcripts of a hearing, the argument for why they must be sealed is made... and then that argument becomes sealed along with all the other information. Not as part of the argument, but as part of the decision on the limits of George's freedoms as agreed upon in the plea deal, he was told to not make any contact with any campaign participant.

If he was wired, then the prosecution would want him to have no contact except in the instance they made an exception. They'd want that for any other case they were working on or would work on in the future.

 

[RavenSky]

Your reasons are lame.

What is your evidence he is a reliable witness? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it even though you probably didn't know he existed until this week?

Because prosecutors don't get convictions on hearsay.

I actually read the indictment, which I assure I'm more qualified to do than you are. I'm also familiar with how U.S. prosecutors operate and I have a law degree (juris doctorate).

Why should we believe your government would not take action of flimsy hearsay evidence?

Because they can't. I would explain hearsay to you and how it fits into this picture in its full legal context, but I refuse to waste my time ever doing that shit again (explaining to people on the internet how the law really works). You either won't read it, or will ignore it, or interpret it in some way that makes sense to you and only you. Then you'll claim Stupid Victory after I've spent a considerable amount of time researching, providing sources, statutes, case history, and then explaining all relevant information in layman's terms.

The fact is your government does things on flimsy hearsay evidence all the time, and people like you keep cheering for them

Nope. I fear the level of irrelevance I'd have to experience.

Let me know if you want some examples, though i'm sure you now realise that it was you who was being "fucking silly"

That's okay. I don't want any of your examples.

cr:jq

(and for whatever it is worth, even when the painstakingly documented responses from you and others are ignored by the intended recipients, I (for one) enjoy them enormously)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Just curious, could that be read as 'unsupervised' contact? Would that count if he's directed to make contact, while wearing a mic, for the purpose of providing further evidence for the investigators?

It's not really a freedom if he has to have his handler know about all contacts.

I mean, at least on TV, they never stop an undercover sting because they realize their patsy is on parole, and not allowed to consort with known felons, when the person they're trying to sting is a known felon....

I'd think that it would be kind of hard for Papa to be used on stings anymore,

Not 'anymore.' Someone objected to speculation that he'd BEEN wearing a wire as part of the plea deal, when he was convicted in secret a few months ago, saying he couldn't have been because his listed freedoms limited his ability to associate with those people he'd have been recording.

I just don't think that those terms would really prevent Mueller's teams from using Papa, as it's not really a freedom if they're using you as a baited hook, under constant scrutiny and supervision.

Now that they've gone public with his status, sure, it's probably easy for him to observe 'have no contact with' restrictions as everyone treats him like a ticking bomb....

 

[Artemus]

Sessions will be the last to drop, I think, in order to protect Mueller.

New Republic has also picked up on the apparent perjury. I think you are right about Sessions being the last to be charged, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Trump uses this as an excuse to fire Sessions even without charges filed. He's all but said that he wants to and apparently has no ability to understand the political fallout of doing something like that. I kind of hope it happens...this is providing no end of entertainment.

And now MSNBC is reporting that Sessions now remembers the meeting where Papadopolous said he was communicating with Russian officials (Putin's niece!). Has somebody else flipped? We can only hope.

ETA: A better link to this latest MSNBC claim is here. Scroll up when you get there.

ETA: And it is on NBC News proper.

 

[Artemus]

I'd think that it would be kind of hard for Papa to be used on stings anymore,

Not 'anymore.' Someone objected to speculation that he'd BEEN wearing a wire as part of the plea deal, when he was convicted in secret a few months ago, saying he couldn't have been because his listed freedoms limited his ability to associate with those people he'd have been recording.

I just don't think that those terms would really prevent Mueller's teams from using Papa, as it's not really a freedom if they're using you as a baited hook, under constant scrutiny and supervision.

Now that they've gone public with his status, sure, it's probably easy for him to observe 'have no contact with' restrictions as everyone treats him like a ticking bomb....

Really I don't think that any of us are legally astute enough to understand what is and isn't possible in a case like this. A couple talking heads who on the face of it are qualified to give informed speculation (is that a self-contradictory term? ) have said he might have been, but they may not have study the indictment in sufficient detail to actually understand it fully before commenting.

 

[Malintent]

I'd think that it would be kind of hard for Papa to be used on stings anymore,

Not 'anymore.' Someone objected to speculation that he'd BEEN wearing a wire as part of the plea deal, when he was convicted in secret a few months ago, saying he couldn't have been because his listed freedoms limited his ability to associate with those people he'd have been recording.

I just don't think that those terms would really prevent Mueller's teams from using Papa, as it's not really a freedom if they're using you as a baited hook, under constant scrutiny and supervision.

Now that they've gone public with his status, sure, it's probably easy for him to observe 'have no contact with' restrictions as everyone treats him like a ticking bomb....

That was me... and I also said that those words could be in there as a red hearing in the event the sealed court records were leaked or an individual present at the hearings leaked it... so as to not ruin the mole.

Another poster pointed out that that statement may have been made at the indictment hearing (and not at the trial).. both are "court records", but one was 3 months ago and the other was just the other day... so he is no longer allowed to met with the people he already bugged... Just speculation and some reading between the lines.

Edited to add...

Oh, that was you that pointed out the latter... heh.

 

[Copernicus]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

The mob trials and John Gotti come to mind.

John Gotti lawyer: You know, the guy on the stand murdered 20 people. I don't think he is particularly trustworthy.

 

[RavenSky]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

So Republicans finally agree that Sessions, Trump, every person Trump has appointed for anything and most of the Republican congress-critters are discredited?

Good. Glad we have that clear.

 

[Underseer]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

But what if lying is actually telling the truth? Remember that the FBI is probably using facts instead of alternative facts, therefore everything they do is fake news! Fake news! I just disproved the FBI!!!! 47th dimensional chess!!!!!!

 

[Shadowy Man]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

The mob trials and John Gotti come to mind.

John Gotti lawyer: You know, the guy on the stand murdered 20 people. I don't think he is particularly trustworthy.

I'm sensing an upcoming uptick in my irony meter repair business.

 

[Underseer]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

So Republicans finally agree that Sessions, Trump, every person Trump has appointed for anything and most of the Republican congress-critters are discredited?

Good. Glad we have that clear.

Liberals are exactly as bad because they think Trump's campaign manager was indicted for custody against the United States! What obvious fake news! [/Conservolibertarian]

 

[ZiprHead]

Can you link me to that? It's not in his indictment and that's all I can find.

It's not in the indictment, it is in the court records that were unsealed upon delivery of the indictment. To be able to have a judge seal the transcripts of a hearing, the argument for why they must be sealed is made... and then that argument becomes sealed along with all the other information. Not as part of the argument, but as part of the decision on the limits of George's freedoms as agreed upon in the plea deal, he was told to not make any contact with any campaign participant.

What about the time between when he was charged and when he accepted the plea deal? That was several months where no one knew he was in Mueller's clutches.

 

[Trausti]

It is amusing that the latest Republican talking point uses the fact that Papadopoulos lied to the FBI as a means of discrediting him. He would not have come forward to plea bargain otherwise, because he never would have been arrested in the first place. How many criminal investigations would get very far without the ability of investigators to flip witnesses? Everyone who turned state's evidence would be useless to prosecutions by that logic. Papadopoulos had no motive for his first lie other than to help shield the Trump campaign from the perception of collusion with Russia.

But what if lying is actually telling the truth? Remember that the FBI is probably using facts instead of alternative facts, therefore everything they do is fake news! Fake news! I just disproved the FBI!!!! 47th dimensional chess!!!!!!

And so what if he is? Papadopoulos did not commit any crimes except lie about insignificant shit.

 

[blastula]

But what if lying is actually telling the truth? Remember that the FBI is probably using facts instead of alternative facts, therefore everything they do is fake news! Fake news! I just disproved the FBI!!!! 47th dimensional chess!!!!!!

And so what if he is? Papadopoulos did not commit any crimes except lie about insignificant shit.

It's so insignificant that every single campaign member with similar contacts has lied about the same thing.