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Mueller investigation

Artemus said:
starwater said:
CNN is reporting Mueller subpeona of Trumps buisnesss records.
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Interesting. The breaking story this morning was Trump was finally placing the sanctions on Russia. I wonder if the timing was less than coincidental?
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Trump does seem to follow the playbook that the Russians/Wikileaks used somewhat successfully with the Access Hollywood tape. That is, he has a number of headline-grabbing options he can take whenever something embarrassing happens or that he knows is about to happen. So he fired Tillerson on Tuesday. Was it coincidental that the Pennsylvania election, a guaranteed embarrassment for him, was happening on that day? Now we suddenly get this announcement that he is imposing some sanctions on Russia--a month after the deadline demanded by our ineffective, do-nothing Congress. He has been such a tool of the Putin regime until now, that this news was bound to come as a shocking surprise. He had basically flipped the bird to Congress when he said that sanctions weren't really needed when the deadline came due.

OTOH, this latest assassination in London has put considerable pressure on Trump for some response. Putin is not likely to make a big deal of it, given how much of a mess Trump has been making of the imploding US administration.
 
Artemus said:
starwater said:
CNN is reporting Mueller subpeona of Trumps buisnesss records.
Click to expand...

Interesting. The breaking story this morning was Trump was finally placing the sanctions on Russia. I wonder if the timing was less than coincidental?
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That is all well and good but, factually, HE didn't. Mueller did. The "sanctions" that were placed on Russia were precisely the Indictments made by the special counsel.

"What are we doing about Russia's interference in our political process, now that we Indicted some Russian operatives"?
"We are indicting some Russian operatives"
 
Malintent said:
Artemus said:
starwater said:
CNN is reporting Mueller subpeona of Trumps buisnesss records.
Click to expand...

Interesting. The breaking story this morning was Trump was finally placing the sanctions on Russia. I wonder if the timing was less than coincidental?
Click to expand...

That is all well and good but, factually, HE didn't. Mueller did. The "sanctions" that were placed on Russia were precisely the Indictments made by the special counsel.

"What are we doing about Russia's interference in our political process, now that we Indicted some Russian operatives"?
"We are indicting some Russian operatives"
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This imposition of sanctions is what Trump had been required by law to do a month ago, and that law also required him to submit a list of Russian Oligarchs and cronies close to Putin. According to Rachel Maddow, such a list had been compiled but subsequently just disappeared. Instead, Trump's people just went on the web an made up a list of rich Russians, most of whom were not the intended targets. In this latest action, Trump merely copied the list of Mueller indictments and imposed sanctions on those individuals. What he did not do is bother to formally or informally ask that the named parties be extradited. Putin would never extradite, but this is primarily about symbolism. Trump is always signaling Putin that he is doing the minimum of what he thinks he can get away with. Putin is very understanding, since it is quite clear that Trump is eager to do his bidding when he can. Trump has 3 more years to produce favors for Putin, so I don't think that Putin is going to go out of his way to try to damage his best asset in the US government.
 
Hey, Cop!

As you well know, Trump is only his asset in so far as he can do what Putin wants him to do. So far, of course, Trump has done everything Putin could possibly hope for save for the primary reason Putin sought to install him in the Oval in the first place; which was to lift those sanctions. With Putin’s recent deal with Saudi Arabia (and his previous deals with China), it likely will no longer be needed for Putin’s original plan to be effective.

Perhaps ironically, Trump’s failure to do the one job he was suppposed to do has forced Putin into a “plan B” that has succeeded where Trump could not. Trump would still be useful in a general sense, but the primary endgame has been accomplished. The Russo/Sino/Saudi triumvirate will ascend to global dominance while Trump is left to bankrupt America and sell off its parts. The Republicans seem to not give a shit, since they all got theirs.

If we don’t take the House at the very least this year, it may be irreversible. Even if an American were to come up with the next revolution in alternative energy, it’s too late for that to ever matter. With Putin in control of OPEC oil and Russia sitting on top of the world’s largest untapped oil fields, he can easily ensure global gas dependence until our species finally chokes to death over the next fifty to sixty years.

The second an alternative is proposed, gas will suddenly cost 10 cents a gallon the world over and no one but Ed Begley, Jr. will protest or pay thousands for the alternative.

I will be paying Tillerson’s next moves in particular grave consideration. And watching for Trump’s next biggest Putin-mandated move, which will be something to do with the destruction of our own oil production/reserves. It’s the last defense we have, after all, against Russia’s oil dominance. It’s precisely why China made a deal and now Saudi Arabia, so look for anything that has anything to do with systematically unplugging our own oil production. That and for emission standards to be junked so that we remain dependent on gas in particular.

Americans will do anything anyone wishes—look the other way en masse against all manner of attrocious behavior—if we can fill our tanks for five bucks.
 
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Koyaanisqatsi said:
Hey, Cop!

As you well know, Trump is only his asset in so far as he can do what Putin wants him to do. So far, of course, Trump has done everything Putin could possibly hope for save for the primary reason Putin sought to install him in the Oval in the first place; which was to lift those sanctions. With Putin’s recent deal with Saudi Arabia (and his previous deals with China), it likely will no longer be needed for Putin’s original plan to be effective.

Perhaps ironically, Trump’s failure to do the one job he was suppposed to do has forced Putin into a “plan B” that has succeeded where Trump could not. Trump would still be useful in a general sense, but the primary endgame has been accomplished. The Russo/Sino/Saudi triumvirate will ascend to global dominance while Trump is left to bankrupt America and sell off its parts. The Republicans seem to not give a shit, since they all got theirs.

If we don’t take the House at the very least this year, it may be irreversible. Even if an American were to come up with the next revolution in alternative energy, it’s too late for that to ever matter. With Putin in control of OPEC oil and Russia sitting on top of the world’s largest untapped oil fields, he can easily ensure global gas dependence until our species finally chokes to death over the next fifty to sixty years.

The second an alternative is proposed, gas will suddenly cost 10 cents a gallon the world over and no one but Ed Begley, Jr. will protest or pay thousands for the alternative.

I will be paying Tillerson’s next moves in particular grave consideration. And watching for Trump’s next biggest Putin-mandated move, which will be something to do with the destruction of our own oil production/reserves. It’s the last defense we have, after all, against Russia’s oil dominance. It’s precisely why China made a deal and now Saudi Arabia, so look for anything that has anything to do with systematically unplugging our own oil production. That and for emission standards to be junked so that we remain dependent on gas in particular.

Americans will do anything anyone wishes—look the other way en masse against all manner of attrocious behavior—if we can fill our tanks for five bucks.
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Hey, koy! While I agree with many of your points, I am probably not as gloomy about the extent to which Russia will come to dominate the world. First of all, Putin is mortal, and, like most despots, he is making sure that there are no competent rivals to succeed him. So he has, at best, maybe 15 more years in which to screw up his country and everyone else's. I do, however, agree that Putin has moved on to plan B and is trying to corner the world's oil market. That can only have limited success, given the fact that fracking has made the US temporarily energy-independent. China is not conspiring with Russia for world dominance. They are a competitor of Russia and are banking on cornering the market on solar energy by tying up sources of rare earth minerals. If oil becomes more expensive, that will make renewable sources of energy more affordable. So Putin's drive to control oil resources is not necessarily a bad thing in the long term. And, even if Trump does not lift the sanctions, Putin's main objective has always been to weaken NATO, whose linchpin has been the US. So he is likely to keep supporting Trump as long as the man remains in power. The Republican Party has long acted as a wrecking ball in the federal government, but Trump is the ultimate wrecking ball. He is literally decapitating the administrative branch of government through his inability, or unwillingness, to staff it adequately.
 
Looks like Mueller is moving toward the big showdown with Trump, and Trump and friends aren't taking it well:
New York Times[/QUOTE said:
The president’s tweets, posted on a Saturday in which he remained inside the White House with no public schedule, came as Mr. Mueller is said to have sent questions to Mr. Trump’s legal team as part of negotiations over an interview with the president. Mr. Mueller is seeking the interview, according to two people close to the White House, in order to ask follow-up questions, but put forward the list as a start.

Mr. Dowd’s remarks about Mr. Mueller’s investigation represented an extraordinary shift in public strategy for the Trump legal team.
Click to expand...
There is a lot more on the timing of Trump and McCabe's weekend meltdowns, the firing of McCabe, the delivery of Mueller's pre-interview questions, Trump's anger that Trump Organization records were subpoenaed, turmoil in the legal team, and a lot of other stuff. (I may have to get a paid subscription to the NYTimes just to support them.)
 
Copernicus said:
Hey, koy! While I agree with many of your points, I am probably not as gloomy about the extent to which Russia will come to dominate the world. First of all, Putin is mortal, and, like most despots, he is making sure that there are no competent rivals to succeed him. So he has, at best, maybe 15 more years in which to screw up his country and everyone else's.
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Agreed, but imagine what fifteen years of Russo/Sino/SA dominance would establish. He would be able to effectively annex most of the globe, only instead of via military means, via cheap gas/energy dependence.

I do, however, agree that Putin has moved on to plan B and is trying to corner the world's oil market. That can only have limited success, given the fact that fracking has made the US temporarily energy-independent.
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Which is why I'm watching Trump's next moves (and Tillerson's), but even with our independence, that doesn't mean Putin can't simply isolate us and make the rest of the world dependent on Russia. That is the game plan regardless; destroy America's standing in the world--blockade us, if you will--and then systematically "annex" (via oil dependency) every other country. If you can't beat America, render it moot.

China is not conspiring with Russia for world dominance.
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No, China is partnering with Russia because they recognized right out of the gate exactly what Putin was doing in installing Trump. China has taken enormous steps to ensure that they are (1) not dependent on Russian oil (which, prior to Trump, they were to the tune of billions of dollars and has since dumped billions into alternative energy) and (2) now have a cozy relationship with Russia, such that, whatever happens, China is secure. Detente, if you will.

They are a competitor of Russia and are banking on cornering the market on solar energy by tying up sources of rare earth minerals.
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Not so much a competitor.

My guess is that Putin said something along the lines of, "We will take all of the emerging market countries and make them all gas dependent on our cheap oil; you can take what's left of America and Britain and the EU and dump cheap solar/alternatives there, so that they finally give up on producing oil." End game: Russia maintains oil dependency on the majority of the planet, while "the West" become pure consumers and no longer compete to produce oil. China is fine with that arrangement, as it will mean at least the next fifty years of steadily growing profits for their energy concerns and no threat from Russia turning their lights out.

China corners the "western" market on alternatives while Russia maintains the "eastern" market on cheap gas. Both countries make hundreds of billions of dollars over the next few decades at least.

If oil becomes more expensive, that will make renewable sources of energy more affordable.
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Again, my guess would be that Putin's plans are more strategic than that. Now with the deal between Russia and OPEC especially, Putin can afford to use gas as an economic means of annexation (i.e., dependency) and not necessarily have it all be about profit. Iow, he's playing chess, not checkers, so if he needs to occasionally sacrifice a pawn or a rook (i.e., flood one country with cheap oil to maintain their dependency no matter what the cost), so be it. Just like China, he has the power and the political structure to force private businesses to do his political bidding, no matter the cost.

And, even if Trump does not lift the sanctions, Putin's main objective has always been to weaken NATO, whose linchpin has been the US. So he is likely to keep supporting Trump as long as the man remains in power.
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Agreed, but at the same time, I don't think he really cares anymore. Yes, in the general sense, but he knows Mueller is closing in. He knows Trump blew it, iow and that he's as much of an incompetent as a Russian asset as he is a President. The whole thing is literally blowing up, so while I'm sure he would like to have Trump stay in the WH and continue to do his bidding--and certainly that would be part of the reason why he's killing off Steele's contacts, so that they don't tesitfy (but also on principle)--I think he also sees the writing on the wall and it's now more on Trump's hump to prove his continued worth.

The Republican Party has long acted as a wrecking ball in the federal government, but Trump is the ultimate wrecking ball. He is literally decapitating the administrative branch of government through his inability, or unwillingness, to staff it adequately.
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Yep. Which, again, I see more as a desperate survival tactic--Trump trying to prove his worth--than anything else. It's all very much a mafia mindset with Trump and Putin. If you fuck up (as Trump did by not getting the sanctions lifted), then it's just a desperate scramble to do anything to keep from drinking a glass of nerve agent coffee. Yes, being President has obvious advantages, but the writing is certainly on the wall in regard to both Mueller's investigation and the fact that we are likely going to take back at least the House soon. And, of course, it's the House that initiates impeachment.

This is (again) why I say to watch Trump in regard to anything to do with destroying our oil concerns. If, for example, we see any kind of proposal that impedes fracking, that would be a good indication of what I'm talking about (though it will have to be something longer term and probably more indirect so that it isn't immediately recognized as such). He has proposed repealing Obama's rules on fracking on federal land and offshore drilling, for example. That would certainly seem to be pro-fracking, but note they also proposed rescinding safety rules. So he's taking a bankruptcy approach; it appears like he's building a great new skyscraper, when in fact it's a smokescreen to hid his real intent; to bankrupt it and profit off the fire sale it generates.

Both measures--federal land and less safe--are pretty much guaranteed to blow up in the industry's face. One or two major accidents (or acts of sabotage?) and it could easily end both. Or even simpler, what will be the inevitable result once Dems take back control? Likely much stronger regulations against either.

That's what I mean by watching carefully and indirect routes.
 
Artemus said:
Looks like Mueller is moving toward the big showdown with Trump, and Trump and friends aren't taking it well:
New York Times[/QUOTE said:
The president’s tweets, posted on a Saturday in which he remained inside the White House with no public schedule, came as Mr. Mueller is said to have sent questions to Mr. Trump’s legal team as part of negotiations over an interview with the president. Mr. Mueller is seeking the interview, according to two people close to the White House, in order to ask follow-up questions, but put forward the list as a start.

Mr. Dowd’s remarks about Mr. Mueller’s investigation represented an extraordinary shift in public strategy for the Trump legal team.
Click to expand...
There is a lot more on the timing of Trump and McCabe's weekend meltdowns, the firing of McCabe, the delivery of Mueller's pre-interview questions, Trump's anger that Trump Organization records were subpoenaed, turmoil in the legal team, and a lot of other stuff. (I may have to get a paid subscription to the NYTimes just to support them.)
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CNN says the weekend meltdown came after Mueller's side gave Trump's lawyers more details on what they want to ask Trump about in an interview. Methinks that the Donald may be feeling the noose tightening.
 
Artemus said:
Artemus said:
Looks like Mueller is moving toward the big showdown with Trump, and Trump and friends aren't taking it well:
New York Times[/QUOTE said:
The president’s tweets, posted on a Saturday in which he remained inside the White House with no public schedule, came as Mr. Mueller is said to have sent questions to Mr. Trump’s legal team as part of negotiations over an interview with the president. Mr. Mueller is seeking the interview, according to two people close to the White House, in order to ask follow-up questions, but put forward the list as a start.

Mr. Dowd’s remarks about Mr. Mueller’s investigation represented an extraordinary shift in public strategy for the Trump legal team.
Click to expand...
There is a lot more on the timing of Trump and McCabe's weekend meltdowns, the firing of McCabe, the delivery of Mueller's pre-interview questions, Trump's anger that Trump Organization records were subpoenaed, turmoil in the legal team, and a lot of other stuff. (I may have to get a paid subscription to the NYTimes just to support them.)
Click to expand...

CNN says the weekend meltdown came after Mueller's side gave Trump's lawyers more details on what they want to ask Trump about in an interview. Methinks that the Donald may be feeling the noose tightening.
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Late Breaking news is that Mueller and Trump's teams have met in person for the first time. I think this also is contributing to Trump's sudden need to breathe. :p

CNN has it more in depth.
 
Koyaanisqatsi said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
braces_for_impact said:
Late Breaking news is that Mueller and Trump's teams have met in person for the first time.
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This will get interesting because of Trump's narcissistic penchant for lying.
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Not in that meeting. He will magically be articulate and very very deliberate with everything he says.
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Right, exactly... like that time.... um, when he... Oh, I know the other day - no that wasn't... Ya, sure he will.
 
Last night, a Republican politician argued that we should end the Mueller investigation because it's already been 14 months.

Does this mean that everything in the Benghazi investigation was a witch hunts after the first 14 months? Or does this argument only apply when a Republican politician is being investigated?

What should be the universal time limit on all investigations? Because this is a pretty large and complicated investigation involving a lot of people and companies.
 
Koyaanisqatsi said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
braces_for_impact said:
Late Breaking news is that Mueller and Trump's teams have met in person for the first time.
Click to expand...

This will get interesting because of Trump's narcissistic penchant for lying.
Click to expand...

Not in that meeting. He will magically be articulate and very very deliberate with everything he says.
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These aren't going to be random questions. They are questions about his wrongdoing, the wrongdoing of his subordinates, including his sons. Unless you mean that he reverts to "I do not recall" to everything, which maybe you do, he's screwed.
 
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