My faith in the laws of economics has been reaffirmed.

[dismal]

To eat an apple I must have means of appropriating an apple to my own exclusive use.

And you should have as many apples as you need to stay alive.

Nobody should deprive you of your needs.

Maybe someone else thinks the apple meets their needs too.

How do I even get to eat one apple without first appropriating it to myself?

 

[untermensche]

And you should have as many apples as you need to stay alive.

Nobody should deprive you of your needs.

Maybe someone else thinks the apple meets their needs too.

How do I even get to eat one apple without first appropriating it to myself?

Are you saying there is no human capacity to supply enough apples?

Why should anyone need to be shorted?

You take what you need and everybody else takes what they need.

The bare bones first goal of economic activity.

 

[coloradoatheist]

To eat an apple I must have means of appropriating an apple to my own exclusive use.

And you should have as many apples as you need to stay alive.

Nobody should deprive you of your needs.

But it runs into the unique issue for humans, not all spots on Earth have enough resources to allow that. Humans had to develop trade to meet our needs, and hence why property came about.

 

[untermensche]

And you should have as many apples as you need to stay alive.

Nobody should deprive you of your needs.

But it runs into the unique issue for humans, not all spots on Earth have enough resources to allow that. Humans had to develop trade to meet our needs, and hence why property came about.

How much food is destroyed or not grown because other motives are involved?

 

[coloradoatheist]

But it runs into the unique issue for humans, not all spots on Earth have enough resources to allow that. Humans had to develop trade to meet our needs, and hence why property came about.

How much food is destroyed or not grown because other motives are involved?

Some of course. But the issue is that we have limited resources of all things humans need, not just food. So there must be a means for allocating the scarce resources that we have around the planet.

 

[dismal]

Maybe someone else thinks the apple meets their needs too.

How do I even get to eat one apple without first appropriating it to myself?

Are you saying there is no human capacity to supply enough apples?

Why should anyone need to be shorted?

You take what you need and everybody else takes what they need.

The bare bones first goal of economic activity.

Well, yes, there is and has always been competition for resources.

Animals, I am told, even eat each other.

Does your belief system require that you to assume away the problem, or do you actually have an answer to the question I asked?

If more than one person claims a given apple meets their needs how does one person appropriate it to themselves?

Dance off?

 

[untermensche]

How much food is destroyed or not grown because other motives are involved?

Some of course. But the issue is that we have limited resources of all things humans need, not just food. So there must be a means for allocating the scarce resources that we have around the planet.

What is needed most is prevention of hoarding.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you saying there is no human capacity to supply enough apples?

Why should anyone need to be shorted?

You take what you need and everybody else takes what they need.

The bare bones first goal of economic activity.

Well, yes, there is and has always been competition for resources.

Animals, I am told, even eat each other.

Does your belief system require that you to assume away the problem, or do you actually have an answer to the question I asked?

If more than one person claims a given apple meets their needs how does one person appropriate it to themselves?

Dance off?

Dance off from what? Utter nothingness?

Again, your scenario implies humans cannot supply enough.

It is a flight of fantasy, or maybe a dance.

 

[dismal]

Some of course. But the issue is that we have limited resources of all things humans need, not just food. So there must be a means for allocating the scarce resources that we have around the planet.

What is needed most is prevention of hoarding.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you saying there is no human capacity to supply enough apples?

Why should anyone need to be shorted?

You take what you need and everybody else takes what they need.

The bare bones first goal of economic activity.

Well, yes, there is and has always been competition for resources.

Animals, I am told, even eat each other.

Does your belief system require that you to assume away the problem, or do you actually have an answer to the question I asked?

If more than one person claims a given apple meets their needs how does one person appropriate it to themselves?

Dance off?

Dance off from what? Utter nothingness?

Again, your scenario implies humans cannot supply enough.

It is a flight of fantasy, or maybe a dance.

So, assume away the problem it is.

 

[coloradoatheist]

But even as something as simple as apples have huge problems. They just don't grow everywhere all the time. So something has to coordinate the resources needed (land, water, transportation, storage, delivery) of all these just to get apples to people. It's not hoarding that is the problem of the number of apples getting to everyone.

 

[dismal]

But even as something as simple as apples have huge problems. They just don't grow everywhere all the time. So something has to coordinate the resources needed (land, water, transportation, storage, delivery) of all these just to get apples to people. It's not hoarding that is the problem of the number of apples getting to everyone.

Well, if I have it right there's no point in putting effort into any of that.

Just wait from someone else to grow an apple -- or maybe even to bake an apple strudel -- and then point you you need it more than they do.

 

[Bronzeage]

Not true. Both have an influence on behaviors. There is an underlying sexual drive that people have, but culture will influence things about that drive.

Yes true. Yes absolutely true.

And you provide the evidence.

There is no behavior specified in the genes.

And the sexual desire is the perfect example.

What people derive sexual pleasure from has nothing to do with the genes. This arises from experience.

If this were true, I would never have enjoyed lurid dreams ending in a nocturnal ejaculation, before I actually experienced the real thing.

 

[untermensche]

Yes true. Yes absolutely true.

And you provide the evidence.

There is no behavior specified in the genes.

And the sexual desire is the perfect example.

What people derive sexual pleasure from has nothing to do with the genes. This arises from experience.

If this were true, I would never have enjoyed lurid dreams ending in a nocturnal ejaculation, before I actually experienced the real thing.

When the conversation switches to your alleged dreams it has lost meaning.

We are talking about actions. Actions that occur within a cultural and experiential context.

Not dreams, that need not have any context.

 

[Bronzeage]

If this were true, I would never have enjoyed lurid dreams ending in a nocturnal ejaculation, before I actually experienced the real thing.

When the conversation switches to your alleged dreams it has lost meaning.

We are talking about actions. Actions that occur within a cultural and experiential context.

Not dreams, that need not have any context.

You made the statement that sexual pleasure is not genetic, but arises from experience. My alleged dreams(you'll just have to take my word for it, or not) occurred before I gained experience. I doubt I am a unique specimen.

 

[untermensche]

When the conversation switches to your alleged dreams it has lost meaning.

We are talking about actions. Actions that occur within a cultural and experiential context.

Not dreams, that need not have any context.

You made the statement that sexual pleasure is not genetic, but arises from experience. My alleged dreams(you'll just have to take my word for it, or not) occurred before I gained experience. I doubt I am a unique specimen.

I said that how one expresses the sexual drive, how one derives sexual pleasure, arises through experience.

The drive arises through genetics.

Not the behaviors, in humans, that satisfy the drive.

They arise culturally and experientially.

 

[coloradoatheist]

You made the statement that sexual pleasure is not genetic, but arises from experience. My alleged dreams(you'll just have to take my word for it, or not) occurred before I gained experience. I doubt I am a unique specimen.

I said that how one expresses the sexual drive, how one derives sexual pleasure, arises through experience.

The drive arises through genetics.

Not the behaviors, in humans, that satisfy the drive.

They arise culturally and experientially.

Except a lot of our behavior is driven by that underlying sexual drive. Humans just understand the underlying drive more but for most people its a fighting with the quandaries.

 

[untermensche]

I said that how one expresses the sexual drive, how one derives sexual pleasure, arises through experience.

The drive arises through genetics.

Not the behaviors, in humans, that satisfy the drive.

They arise culturally and experientially.

Except a lot of our behavior is driven by that underlying sexual drive. Humans just understand the underlying drive more but for most people its a fighting with the quandaries.

The behaviors are not driven. They are learned.

Just like the drive to eat.

What a person eats is totally dependent on culture and experience.

No genes force anybody to eat some specific thing. Medical conditions might. Like low sodium might make a person crave salt.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Except a lot of our behavior is driven by that underlying sexual drive. Humans just understand the underlying drive more but for most people its a fighting with the quandaries.

The behaviors are not driven. They are learned.

Just like the drive to eat.

What a person eats is totally dependent on culture and experience.

No genes force anybody to eat some specific thing. Medical conditions might. Like low sodium might make a person crave salt.

But you still having the need for eating driving the behavior. You can't just tell a person not to eat.

 

[untermensche]

The behaviors are not driven. They are learned.

Just like the drive to eat.

What a person eats is totally dependent on culture and experience.

No genes force anybody to eat some specific thing. Medical conditions might. Like low sodium might make a person crave salt.

But you still having the need for eating driving the behavior. You can't just tell a person not to eat.

You do not have genes "driving" specific behaviors.

You have unspecific drives.

And the responses made to those drives based on culture and experience.

The behavior is a product of culture and experience, not genes.

 

[coloradoatheist]

But you still having the need for eating driving the behavior. You can't just tell a person not to eat.

You do not have genes "driving" specific behaviors.

You have unspecific drives.

And the responses made to those drives based on culture and experience.

The behavior is a product of culture and experience, not genes.

But if the behavior is eating, then that is dictated by your body either getting pleasure or avoiding pain. If you are starving, you will eat anything that your body can use, even if it's eating your fellow human being or your favorite dog or cat.

 

[untermensche]

You do not have genes "driving" specific behaviors.

You have unspecific drives.

And the responses made to those drives based on culture and experience.

The behavior is a product of culture and experience, not genes.

But if the behavior is eating, then that is dictated by your body either getting pleasure or avoiding pain. If you are starving, you will eat anything that your body can use, even if it's eating your fellow human being or your favorite dog or cat.

The drive is the drive for food. The drive to eat.

But what you eat is determined by circumstance, not genes.

The specific behavior is what you eat.

Drives don't point to specific behaviors. The behaviors arise through exposure to culture and experience.

And behaviors that occur under dire circumstances are clearly the result of experience. A highly traumatic experience.

Humans have a psychology and can be greatly effected by traumatic experiences.