My faith in the laws of economics has been reaffirmed.

[untermensche]

Genes create the capacity to have thoughts.

But thoughts can be controlled and organized over time.

But organized based on experience in the world which the genes can't possibly know about since they arose in a completely different world from the artificial man-made modern world.

Why on the last part? We accept that the environment allows for other mutations to be selected for, why not a selection for Intelligence?

"Intelligence" is the product of many genes that must all work in harmony to create something with function.

If it is disrupted by a single mutation finding that gene would be easy.

First: Take everybody who scores over some arbitrary point on a test and find the gene they have that the people who score lower do not have.

Second: Demonstrate that this gene could effect intelligence in some way.

People have been trying to do this for a long time with ZERO results.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Why on the last part? We accept that the environment allows for other mutations to be selected for, why not a selection for Intelligence?

"Intelligence" is the product of many genes that must all work in harmony to create something with function.

If it is disrupted by a single mutation finding that gene would be easy.

First: Take everybody who scores over some arbitrary point on a test and find the gene they have that the people who score lower do not have.

Second: Demonstrate that this gene could effect intelligence in some way.

People have been trying to do this for a long time with ZERO results.

The first part is right, multiple genes, not one. And yes they are getting down to identifying the different genes and their influences on each other.

 

[untermensche]

"Intelligence" is the product of many genes that must all work in harmony to create something with function.

If it is disrupted by a single mutation finding that gene would be easy.

First: Take everybody who scores over some arbitrary point on a test and find the gene they have that the people who score lower do not have.

Second: Demonstrate that this gene could effect intelligence in some way.

People have been trying to do this for a long time with ZERO results.

The first part is right, multiple genes, not one. And yes they are getting down to identifying the different genes and their influences on each other.

They are looking.

And have located nothing.

When the brain develops the neurons migrate and half die.

Neurons must move into place under general control, not under specific control, otherwise one misplaced cell would destroy the whole structure. And the neurons that die must die under some general command. Since there is no way to know ahead of time where they will end up.

The brain does not form under specific genetic control. It is a process involving chance events under general command.

No matter what genes you find you will not make it a process of specific genetic control. That would be impossible.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The first part is right, multiple genes, not one. And yes they are getting down to identifying the different genes and their influences on each other.

They are looking.

And have located nothing.

When the brain develops the neurons migrate and half die.

Neurons must move into place under general control, not under specific control, otherwise one misplaced cell would destroy the whole structure. And the neurons that die must die under some general command. Since there is no way to know ahead of time where they will end up.

The brain does not form under specific genetic control. It is a process involving chance events under general command.

No matter what genes you find you will not make it a process of specific genetic control. That would be impossible.

But even the controls for that is genetic, so the genes underneath control it. I think within 20 years we will have a much better understanding of the genetics that make up intelligence. We can show that brain damage itself has a major impact, along with brain development in early years.

 

[untermensche]

They are looking.

And have located nothing.

When the brain develops the neurons migrate and half die.

Neurons must move into place under general control, not under specific control, otherwise one misplaced cell would destroy the whole structure. And the neurons that die must die under some general command. Since there is no way to know ahead of time where they will end up.

The brain does not form under specific genetic control. It is a process involving chance events under general command.

No matter what genes you find you will not make it a process of specific genetic control. That would be impossible.

But even the controls for that is genetic, so the genes underneath control it. I think within 20 years we will have a much better understanding of the genetics that make up intelligence. We can show that brain damage itself has a major impact, along with brain development in early years.

You can't have billions of neurons moving under specific command. If one cell did not reach the proper destination at the exact right moment then the whole structure would be disrupted.

It is a random process.

That is why great geniuses do not necessarily have children that are great geniuses.

And geniuses can arise from parents of average intelligence.

The process of brain construction has randomness built in.

No matter how many genes are found this can't be removed. It is a necessary aspect of the process and something the process deals with.

 

[iolo]

The issue is whether it is some general tendency as opposed to a rare trait.

You see people stealing from their elderly parents.

But it is a rare trait, not a general trait.

And probably has more to do with upbringing than genetics.

Where are you getting that stealing was only against elderly parents? Shouldn't the commandment then have been "Though shall not steal against old people?" I do agree that capitalism has slightly changed theft, we now have more stuff to steal.

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of property arises from 'ownership' of land, but where did anyone get that from? Land is just there, and individual property is theft, way back when or yesterday.

Even some animals show land and ownership. Land becoming property is very important in the development of humans because humans only have the ability to live in a few areas without developing property.

How could anybody ever come to own land? They merely occupy it. Property, as you know, is theft.

 

[coloradoatheist]

But even the controls for that is genetic, so the genes underneath control it. I think within 20 years we will have a much better understanding of the genetics that make up intelligence. We can show that brain damage itself has a major impact, along with brain development in early years.

You can't have billions of neurons moving under specific command. If one cell did not reach the proper destination at the exact right moment then the whole structure would be disrupted.

It is a random process.

That is why great geniuses do not necessarily have children that are great geniuses.

And geniuses can arise from parents of average intelligence.

The process of brain construction has randomness built in.

No matter how many genes are found this can't be removed. It is a necessary aspect of the process and something the process deals with.

And I think you are putting too much into what you think is complete randomness. Its not complete randomness or things wouldn't form. Maybe in a period of time we will understand it.

But you are too easy to dismiss the studies that show that genetics play a huge part in intelligence and success in life itself. It's hard because as parents or teachers we want to believe that we shape them more but instead of just being who we had sex with.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Where are you getting that stealing was only against elderly parents? Shouldn't the commandment then have been "Though shall not steal against old people?" I do agree that capitalism has slightly changed theft, we now have more stuff to steal.

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of property arises from 'ownership' of land, but where did anyone get that from? Land is just there, and individual property is theft, way back when or yesterday.

Even some animals show land and ownership. Land becoming property is very important in the development of humans because humans only have the ability to live in a few areas without developing property.

How could anybody ever come to own land? They merely occupy it. Property, as you know, is theft.

No. We came to own land as a property of our species and ownership is a key product of humans. Even some other animals understand it, but we are more advanced animals. And no, property is not theft.

 

[untermensche]

You can't have billions of neurons moving under specific command. If one cell did not reach the proper destination at the exact right moment then the whole structure would be disrupted.

It is a random process.

That is why great geniuses do not necessarily have children that are great geniuses.

And geniuses can arise from parents of average intelligence.

The process of brain construction has randomness built in.

No matter how many genes are found this can't be removed. It is a necessary aspect of the process and something the process deals with.

And I think you are putting too much into what you think is complete randomness. Its not complete randomness or things wouldn't form. Maybe in a period of time we will understand it.

But you are too easy to dismiss the studies that show that genetics play a huge part in intelligence and success in life itself. It's hard because as parents or teachers we want to believe that we shape them more but instead of just being who we had sex with.

Strawman.

Nobody is talking about complete randomness which gives you no structure.

It is about a process that accommodates randomness.

A process that has randomness built in.

Not a process under total genetic control.

If the building of the brain is not under total genetic control then the features of the finished product are not the products of merely genes.

 

[coloradoatheist]

And I think you are putting too much into what you think is complete randomness. Its not complete randomness or things wouldn't form. Maybe in a period of time we will understand it.

But you are too easy to dismiss the studies that show that genetics play a huge part in intelligence and success in life itself. It's hard because as parents or teachers we want to believe that we shape them more but instead of just being who we had sex with.

Strawman.

Nobody is talking about complete randomness which gives you no structure.

It is about a process that accommodates randomness.

A process that has randomness built in.

Not a process under total genetic control.

If the building of the brain is not under total genetic control then the features of the finished product are not the products of merely genes.

But if we are to believe evolution in generation, there is randomness all the time, some good and some bad. The animal that had the random change in the gene that allowed a longer neck for the giraffe, was still random, but the genes were there. Unless we are to think Chuck Norris went back and punched a horse so we would have giraffes.

 

[dismal]

Where are you getting that stealing was only against elderly parents? Shouldn't the commandment then have been "Though shall not steal against old people?" I do agree that capitalism has slightly changed theft, we now have more stuff to steal.

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of property arises from 'ownership' of land, but where did anyone get that from? Land is just there, and individual property is theft, way back when or yesterday.

Even some animals show land and ownership. Land becoming property is very important in the development of humans because humans only have the ability to live in a few areas without developing property.

How could anybody ever come to own land? They merely occupy it. Property, as you know, is theft.

We have laws and stuff that cover these things. Because it is quite useful to the species if someone does come to own land.

 

[untermensche]

Strawman.

Nobody is talking about complete randomness which gives you no structure.

It is about a process that accommodates randomness.

A process that has randomness built in.

Not a process under total genetic control.

If the building of the brain is not under total genetic control then the features of the finished product are not the products of merely genes.

But if we are to believe evolution in generation, there is randomness all the time, some good and some bad. The animal that had the random change in the gene that allowed a longer neck for the giraffe, was still random, but the genes were there. Unless we are to think Chuck Norris went back and punched a horse so we would have giraffes.

Total non-sequitur.

There are things under some genetic control. Like the length and shape of the bones. These are effected by nutrition and activity however.

But the building of the brain has randomness built in.

You won't find genes that specifically create something that corresponds to the scale of the man-made IQ tests.

Where somebody fits on the scale is about more than genes.

 

[iolo]

Where are you getting that stealing was only against elderly parents? Shouldn't the commandment then have been "Though shall not steal against old people?" I do agree that capitalism has slightly changed theft, we now have more stuff to steal.

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of property arises from 'ownership' of land, but where did anyone get that from? Land is just there, and individual property is theft, way back when or yesterday.

Even some animals show land and ownership. Land becoming property is very important in the development of humans because humans only have the ability to live in a few areas without developing property.

How could anybody ever come to own land? They merely occupy it. Property, as you know, is theft.

No. We came to own land as a property of our species and ownership is a key product of humans. Even some other animals understand it, but we are more advanced animals. And no, property is not theft.

Bullshit. Land is just there, so how could some bully-boy come to 'own' it? Male animals have a 'territory' while they are alive, dominant, and after sex, not property.

 

[ronburgundy]

Tendency? That shit is so prevalent that I thought it must of been written in the genetic code.

In what culture are you seeing this?

Every single culture, that is why every single culture punishes those that steal and has rules about it. Codified rules against stealing are universal, because stealing is universal, and so is the notion of property which is ultimately rooted in the simple desire to retain possession of things one desires. Chimps so a clear sense of ownership of desired objects and quickly punish those that take what is theirs. Property and theft are not merely part of human nature, but primate nature, at minimum.

What varies by culture is not whether notions of property, theft, and rules against it exist, but rather who is defined as "the other" that is or is not allowed to take it, what they are allowed to take, and how much of it they can take before it is treated as a punishable theft.

 

[dismal]

Where are you getting that stealing was only against elderly parents? Shouldn't the commandment then have been "Though shall not steal against old people?" I do agree that capitalism has slightly changed theft, we now have more stuff to steal.

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of property arises from 'ownership' of land, but where did anyone get that from? Land is just there, and individual property is theft, way back when or yesterday.

Even some animals show land and ownership. Land becoming property is very important in the development of humans because humans only have the ability to live in a few areas without developing property.

How could anybody ever come to own land? They merely occupy it. Property, as you know, is theft.

No. We came to own land as a property of our species and ownership is a key product of humans. Even some other animals understand it, but we are more advanced animals. And no, property is not theft.

Bullshit. Land is just there, so how could some bully-boy come to 'own' it? Male animals have a 'territory' while they are alive, dominant, and after sex, not property.

We conduct a little survey and draw up a little deed which we then proceed to honor under our system of laws, and poof someone owns the land.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Where are you getting that stealing was only against elderly parents? Shouldn't the commandment then have been "Though shall not steal against old people?" I do agree that capitalism has slightly changed theft, we now have more stuff to steal.

- - - Updated - - -

The notion of property arises from 'ownership' of land, but where did anyone get that from? Land is just there, and individual property is theft, way back when or yesterday.

Even some animals show land and ownership. Land becoming property is very important in the development of humans because humans only have the ability to live in a few areas without developing property.

How could anybody ever come to own land? They merely occupy it. Property, as you know, is theft.

No. We came to own land as a property of our species and ownership is a key product of humans. Even some other animals understand it, but we are more advanced animals. And no, property is not theft.

Bullshit. Land is just there, so how could some bully-boy come to 'own' it? Male animals have a 'territory' while they are alive, dominant, and after sex, not property.

Humans divy up the resources on the Earth using the concept of property. Are we stealing it from Earth? Does Earth want to come testify in court that humans can't take it?

 

[untermensche]

In what culture are you seeing this?

Every single culture, that is why every single culture punishes those that steal and has rules about it. Codified rules against stealing are universal, because stealing is universal, and so is the notion of property which is ultimately rooted in the simple desire to retain possession of things one desires. Chimps so a clear sense of ownership of desired objects and quickly punish those that take what is theirs. Property and theft are not merely part of human nature, but primate nature, at minimum.

What varies by culture is not whether notions of property, theft, and rules against it exist, but rather who is defined as "the other" that is or is not allowed to take it, what they are allowed to take, and how much of it they can take before it is treated as a punishable theft.

Rules against stealing property first require rules defining property.

I agree in societies where property is defined in certain ways theft of property will occur.

Define property as only that which is needed for survival and the amount of theft declines.

 

[coloradoatheist]

But if we are to believe evolution in generation, there is randomness all the time, some good and some bad. The animal that had the random change in the gene that allowed a longer neck for the giraffe, was still random, but the genes were there. Unless we are to think Chuck Norris went back and punched a horse so we would have giraffes.

Total non-sequitur.

There are things under some genetic control. Like the length and shape of the bones. These are effected by nutrition and activity however.

But the building of the brain has randomness built in.

You won't find genes that specifically create something that corresponds to the scale of the man-made IQ tests.

Where somebody fits on the scale is about more than genes.

Except in terms of how humans compare to other animals, intelligence is something that humans have more of and in different ways compared to the other animals. It's one of the ways that we separate ourselves from the other animals. So how did humans advance in that part beyond what animals can do? The two answers are genetics or an outside force infusing humans with it.

 

[dismal]

Every single culture, that is why every single culture punishes those that steal and has rules about it. Codified rules against stealing are universal, because stealing is universal, and so is the notion of property which is ultimately rooted in the simple desire to retain possession of things one desires. Chimps so a clear sense of ownership of desired objects and quickly punish those that take what is theirs. Property and theft are not merely part of human nature, but primate nature, at minimum.

What varies by culture is not whether notions of property, theft, and rules against it exist, but rather who is defined as "the other" that is or is not allowed to take it, what they are allowed to take, and how much of it they can take before it is treated as a punishable theft.

Rules against stealing property first require rules defining property.

I agree in societies where property is defined in certain ways theft of property will occur.

Define property as only that which is needed for survival and the amount of theft declines.

To eat an apple I must have means of appropriating an apple to my own exclusive use.

 

[untermensche]

Rules against stealing property first require rules defining property.

I agree in societies where property is defined in certain ways theft of property will occur.

Define property as only that which is needed for survival and the amount of theft declines.

To eat an apple I must have means of appropriating an apple to my own exclusive use.

And you should have as many apples as you need to stay alive.

Nobody should deprive you of your needs.