Needed: Counterpart to 'Woke'

[RVonse]

MAGA stands for make America Great Again. What is so wrong with that? It once was a normal goal for an American to desire their country be great. Because if you don't think the country you live in should be great then pray tell us just why you think your country should suck? And if your goal is for the country you live in to suck, just what would you change to make it suck? More wokeness perhaps?

Well, that's rich. MAGA stands now for what it stood for 8 years ago: belligerence, calls for violence, insulting and obscene language about its opponents (hence the karma in labeling them as whatever infuriates them the most), xenophobic scare-mongering, homophobic scare-mongering, zany conspiracy theories about Democrats drinking baby blood, running child prostitution rings, etc., etc., etc. It is the last refuge of spineless Repub pols who, for a brief window in '15 and '16, and an even briefer one in '21, told the truth about this revolting movement and its leader. They are a stain on our history and traditions.

I'm honestly not that sophisticated as to be able to relate all those embellishments into the average person wearing a MAGA hat. I very much think it depends on the eye of the beholder. In your eyes they are obviously all lumped into the lowest scum on this planet. But in the eyes of the average MAGA hat wearer, all they are hoping for is an America that is great again. Some MAGA supporters like RFK jr probably do not like Trump much better than you but since the current trajectory got us to a place they do not like they are willing to wear a slogan that promises making America great again. So yet I think those people literally believe what MAGA stands for and when you infer something drastically different there exists a lot of confusion.

The left would do far better to promote a slogan (rather than MAGA) that actually addresses the xenophobic scare-mongering calls for violence that (Im guessing) 99% of everyone is against anyway. Communication would be much better anyway.

That all sounds very nice but it makes little sense. In what way does the average MAGA wish the USA to become great again? I ask, because e even the average MAGA supporter's real income is larger than it was 8 years ago. People have better access to health care on average. While we are not quite the envy of the rest of world, a big chunk of that is due to their savior, Donald Trump.

1. America needs to be a producer again and not a consumer. America needs to produce more than it consumes!
2. Washington needs to spend within its means again - Yes I know both sides get away with not paying large deficits, that Clinton was the only one in modern history balancing the budget, and that Trump is the king of spending. That being said, the MAGA movement is most concerned about this and Trump has agreed to put Musk in charge of trimming down government excess. It is estimated Musk could probably lay off half of government and most of us would not know the difference except the deficits would could be halved. As with Twitter, the government would probably start running better with less administrators.
3. We need to make people healthy again. Why does every other nation ban chemicals in their food that the US brings to its own market. We are obviously obese, unhealthy, and victims of the pharma and food industries. Can RFK jr fix this? I don't know but continuing Bidens path surely won't be the solution.
4. We need to secure our borders. Both sides say they want to fix this but only the Biden administration is in charge now. For all of Trumps stupidity and ignorance at least some of the stuff he did while president worked until Biden dismantled all of it when he came in. We know this from what little data exists and And yes, we do need immigration but we need to follow the law doing it.
5. We need to promote our own population reproducing again. That means a lot less "wokeness" and a lot more traditional family values. Which I know is all krytonite to the liberals... but what else can be suggested to get the incels out of their parents basement and back to getting layed by women again. A whole bunch of incels not getting married, layed, or in the whole of society is the guaranteed recipe for shootings and unnecessary violence.
6. The government needs to promote honest money that does not inflate and honest metrics of where the economy is. If average MAGA income is larger than it was 8 years ago it probably does not have the same buying power it did to inflation. But more worrisome than that is that the average MAGA supporter is highly concerned just how long the fed bubbles are going to inflate, and what happens when they explode like they did 2008. Furthermore, honest money (like bitcoin or gold standard) will promote increased economic activity due to firms knowing more easily price information. People will know without the usual CPI mumbo jumbo whether or not their homes are really worth more and whether the gross national produced is really going higher or lower.

.

 

[Gospel]

If someone opposes anti-fascism, they are a fascist by definition.

Definitions don't make them a fascist. For instance, some people are philosophically or religiously opposed to politics, period.
You can say that such people are aiding and abetting fascists with their pacifism, make them fascist by definition. But that doesn't alter their philosophical/religious opposition to fascism.

Ok fair point. But I'll revise it to they're helping fascists.

Funny story about that. The pacifists who did the most ever to help fascists were the Italian Socialist Party. They had an internal dispute over which was more important, pacifism or stopping German imperialism, and the pacifists won. They kicked Mussolini out of the party because he wouldn't shut up about wanting Italy to join the Allies and fight the Germans. If they hadn't had such a hard-assed "Socialists are anti-war, so if you're pro-war you're anti-socialist by definition" attitude, he probably wouldn't have been soured on the Socialist Party and gone on to invent Fascism.

Interesting point! It’s strange, isn't it, how many of history’s most inhumane ideologies seem to stem from someone who felt wronged or betrayed by the very groups they eventually sought to harm. Mussolini’s expulsion from the Italian Socialist Party is a perfect example: a feeling of rejection or opposition can twist a person's outlook, driving them toward extremist ideologies. In some ways, it seems that the emotional fallout of being outcast or disregarded by a group often breeds the resentment and desire for dominance that fuel these ideologies.


Kick out Mussolini? Fascism!
Get humiliated in WWI? Nazism!
Execute a family member? Marxism!
Give centralized power a bad name through Marxism? Anarchism!
Alienate an Egyptian scholar? Radical Islam!
Teach that Jews killed the worlds savior? Antisemitism!

And so on...

 

[RVonse]

When was America great?
That would be step 1 in trying to make any sense of MAGA.

We actually did pretty well right after WW2 (IMO thanks to FDR raising taxes on the rich and banking a lot of gold from England). But we also actually did pretty well (briefly) during Reagan and early Clinton years. For a very short period of time America was the lone super power of the world and still a manufacturing power house.

 

[Bomb#20]

The current trend in conservative media involves taking expressions popular in communities of color and twisting them against those same communities. Why would anyone choose to act like "flip farmers"—my term for conservative figures like Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity?
...
Woke: Once a term for social and racial awareness, 'woke' has been reframed by conservative media to mock political correctness.
...
Minorities often turn negatives into positives, while turning positives into negatives is the job of the flip farmers. I suggest we avoid it.

I don't think Woke really belongs in that list though. Black people used "Woke" for about eighty years without conservatives flip-farming it. They only took it up and started using it as a slur after politically correct white people started using it as a label for themselves. That's the community the conservatives are twisting it against.

 

[Gospel]

The issue isn’t about who they’re twisting it for; it’s about the act of taking something positive and distorting it into something negative. They could just as easily critique the actual arguments and policies from those who’ve adopted the term, instead of ignoring its roots in Black culture. By using it in a derogatory way, they assume we won’t notice the underlying dog-whistle. This is especially apparent in conservative media, where 'woke' is often used as a catch-all criticism against DEI, affirmative action, and other issues historically associated with Black advocacy.

 

[Gospel]

MAGA stands for make America Great Again. What is so wrong with that? It once was a normal goal for an American to desire their country be great. Because if you don't think the country you live in should be great then pray tell us just why you think your country should suck? And if your goal is for the country you live in to suck, just what would you change to make it suck? More wokeness perhaps?

Well, that's rich. MAGA stands now for what it stood for 8 years ago: belligerence, calls for violence, insulting and obscene language about its opponents (hence the karma in labeling them as whatever infuriates them the most), xenophobic scare-mongering, homophobic scare-mongering, zany conspiracy theories about Democrats drinking baby blood, running child prostitution rings, etc., etc., etc. It is the last refuge of spineless Repub pols who, for a brief window in '15 and '16, and an even briefer one in '21, told the truth about this revolting movement and its leader. They are a stain on our history and traditions.

I'm honestly not that sophisticated as to be able to relate all those embellishments into the average person wearing a MAGA hat. I very much think it depends on the eye of the beholder. In your eyes they are obviously all lumped into the lowest scum on this planet. But in the eyes of the average MAGA hat wearer, all they are hoping for is an America that is great again. Some MAGA supporters like RFK jr probably do not like Trump much better than you but since the current trajectory got us to a place they do not like they are willing to wear a slogan that promises making America great again. So yet I think those people literally believe what MAGA stands for and when you infer something drastically different there exists a lot of confusion.

The left would do far better to promote a slogan (rather than MAGA) that actually addresses the xenophobic scare-mongering calls for violence that (Im guessing) 99% of everyone is against anyway. Communication would be much better anyway.

That all sounds very nice but it makes little sense. In what way does the average MAGA wish the USA to become great again? I ask, because e even the average MAGA supporter's real income is larger than it was 8 years ago. People have better access to health care on average. While we are not quite the envy of the rest of world, a big chunk of that is due to their savior, Donald Trump.

1. America needs to be a producer again and not a consumer. America needs to produce more than it consumes!
2. Washington needs to spend within its means again - Yes I know both sides get away with not paying large deficits, that Clinton was the only one in modern history balancing the budget, and that Trump is the king of spending. That being said, the MAGA movement is most concerned about this and Trump has agreed to put Musk in charge of trimming down government excess. It is estimated Musk could probably lay off half of government and most of us would not know the difference except the deficits would could be halved. As with Twitter, the government would probably start running better with less administrators.
3. We need to make people healthy again. Why does every other nation ban chemicals in their food that the US brings to its own market. We are obviously obese, unhealthy, and victims of the pharma and food industries. Can RFK jr fix this? I don't know but continuing Bidens path surely won't be the solution.
4. We need to secure our borders. Both sides say they want to fix this but only the Biden administration is in charge now. For all of Trumps stupidity and ignorance at least some of the stuff he did while president worked until Biden dismantled all of it when he came in. We know this from what little data exists and And yes, we do need immigration but we need to follow the law doing it.
5. We need to promote our own population reproducing again. That means a lot less "wokeness" and a lot more traditional family values. Which I know is all krytonite to the liberals... but what else can be suggested to get the incels out of their parents basement and back to getting layed by women again. A whole bunch of incels not getting married, layed, or in the whole of society is the guaranteed recipe for shootings and unnecessary violence.
6. The government needs to promote honest money that does not inflate and honest metrics of where the economy is. If average MAGA income is larger than it was 8 years ago it probably does not have the same buying power it did to inflation. But more worrisome than that is that the average MAGA supporter is highly concerned just how long the fed bubbles are going to inflate, and what happens when they explode like they did 2008. Furthermore, honest money (like bitcoin or gold standard) will promote increased economic activity due to firms knowing more easily price information. People will know without the usual CPI mumbo jumbo whether or not their homes are really worth more and whether the gross national produced is really going higher or lower.

.

I hardly know where to begin. Trump is mostly talk, and when he does take action, it’s usually in direct opposition to those principles.

1. Producer Economyt The trade deficit with countries like China remained high during Trump's term, and the economy continued to lean heavily on imports.
2. Spending Within Means: Trump significantly increased the national debt with major tax cuts and spending increases, leaving one of the largest budget deficits in U.S. history.
3. Healthy Population: The Trump administration rolled back numerous food and environmental regulations, which arguably made it easier for harmful chemicals to remain in the market.
4. Border Security: While Trump enacted strict border policies, his focus on physical barriers and controversial policies like family separation failed to establish a sustainable or effective immigration reform. If I recall correctly he snubbed Mitch McConnell on a border bill because? I don't fucking know you tell me! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
5. Promoting Population Growth: Trump's policies didn’t particularly support family growth, nor did he address the deeper social issues affecting young people, like housing and job stability.
6. Honest Money and Inflation: Trump will not change the monetary system unless his business interests stand to benefit. Didn't he increase dependence on the Federal Reserve’s low-interest-rates anyway? Trump's approach was to pressure the Fed to keep interest rates low, as his entire economic policy relied heavily on maintaining low rates.

He's not the right candidate, but I guess Trump becomes the default choice when the alternative is a woman of color.

 

[Patooka]

He also doesn't have a weird laugh and that makes all the difference.

 

[pood]

1. America needs to be a producer again and not a consumer. America needs to produce more than it consumes!

America produces more energy and food than it consumes.

2. Washington needs to spend within its means again - Yes I know both sides get away with not paying large deficits, that Clinton was the only one in modern history balancing the budget, and that Trump is the king of spending. That being said, the MAGA movement is most concerned about this and Trump has agreed to put Musk in charge of trimming down government excess.

Just … wow.

It is estimated Musk could probably lay off half of government and most of us would not know the difference except the deficits would could be halved. As with Twitter, the government would probably start running better with less administrators.

Twitter has lost eighty percent of its value under Musk.

3. We need to make people healthy again. Why does every other nation ban chemicals in their food that the US brings to its own market. We are obviously obese, unhealthy, and victims of the pharma and food industries. Can RFK jr fix this? I don't know but continuing Bidens path surely won't be the solution.

They are anti-vaxxers both. Vaccinations make us healthy. RFK Jr. is even talking about banning fluoridation of water. This is la-la land stuff, stuff that John Birchers were talking about sixty years ago. RFK Jr. is a loon, like Trump and Musk.

4. We need to secure our borders. Both sides say they want to fix this but only the Biden administration is in charge now. For all of Trumps stupidity and ignorance at least some of the stuff he did while president worked until Biden dismantled all of it when he came in. We know this from what little data exists and And yes, we do need immigration but we need to follow the law doing it.

None of this is true. Biden has deported as many people as Trump. Obama deported even more. The high point of illegal immigration was at the end of the presidency of Dumbya, a Rethuglican.

5. We need to promote our own population reproducing again. That means a lot less "wokeness" and a lot more traditional family values.

Speak for yourself. You don’t get to tell women they must make babies. And I’m pretty sure you mean white babies.

Which I know is all krytonite to the liberals... but what else can be suggested to get the incels out of their parents basement and back to getting layed by women again. A whole bunch of incels not getting married, layed, or in the whole of society is the guaranteed recipe for shootings and unnecessary violence.

Maybe incels could get laid (not “layed”) if they were not such stupid whiny misogynist fucks. You don’t get to order women to have sex with incels or with anyone, for that matter.

6. The government needs to promote honest money that does not inflate and honest metrics of where the economy is. If average MAGA income is larger than it was 8 years ago it probably does not have the same buying power it did to inflation.

It actually has more buying power. Groceries are more affordable now than they were ini 2019, according to published data.

But more worrisome than that is that the average MAGA supporter is highly concerned just how long the fed bubbles are going to inflate, and what happens when they explode like they did 2008.

Which happened under a Republican administration that pursued deregulation, as Trump and Musk will do again.

Furthermore, honest money (like bitcoin or gold standard) will promote increased economic activity due to firms knowing more easily price information. People will know without the usual CPI mumbo jumbo whether or not their homes are really worth more and whether the gross national produced is really going higher or lower.

Bitcoin or gold standard … Except for the Bitcoin part, are you living in 1875?

.

 

[bilby]

I'm honestly not that sophisticated as to be able to relate all those embellishments into the average person wearing a swastika armband. I very much think it depends on the eye of the beholder. In your eyes they are obviously all lumped into the lowest scum on this planet. But in the eyes of the average swastika wearer, all they are hoping for is a Germany that is great again. Some NSDAP supporters like Ernst Röhm probably do not like Hitler much better than you but since the current trajectory got us to a place they do not like they are willing to wear a slogan that promises making Germany great again. So yet I think those people literally believe what National Socialism stands for and when you infer something drastically different there exists a lot of confusion.

The left would do far better to promote a slogan (rather than "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer") that actually addresses the xenophobic scare-mongering calls for violence that (Im guessing) 99% of everyone is against anyway. Communication would be much better anyway.

 

[Derec]

Thug: In hip-hop, 'thug' evolved into a symbol of resilience and survival in the face of systemic challenges, thanks to figures like Tupac. But conservative media has racialized it, often using it as a dog whistle for Black men.

"Thug" has meant a violent street-level criminal long before hip hop and long before Two Pack Shaker tried to change the meaning of the word.
By the way, would you describe the guy who gunned him down in Vegas as a "thug"?

Woke: Once a term for social and racial awareness, 'woke' has been reframed by conservative media to mock political correctness.

It went through some stages in this evolution. The word became well-known in 2014 when it was extensively used by #BLM activists, black and white alike. Given the ridiculous position taken by many of them, it was ripe for ridicule. As I said in my original post on this, this use of "woke" is legitimate. Unfortunately, the likes of RdS overdid it and started using it for anything he and other conservatives disliked, and not just for ridiculous excesses of fauxgressives, and especially from the professional activists classes.
By the way, the word is not always used politically. Childish Gambino's song "Redbone" repeats "stay woke, niggas creepin" several times, and it is about infidelity. Which is a nice segue to ...

Nigger: Perhaps the most powerful example, this term was claimed as "nigga"—a term of camaraderie within Black communities that transforms a painful history into one of unity and resilience. Conservative media knows better than to fuck around and find out with this one.

The word has become radioactive for use to anybody but black people. What are you even talking about here?

Minorities often turn negatives into positives, while turning positives into negatives is the job of the flip farmers. I suggest we avoid it.

Minorities good. White people bad. I get it.

A language needs negative words. Words such as "thug" that refer to bad people that victimize others. This reality should not be sanitized just because some two bit rapper wanted to use it to brand himself.

 

[pood]

Minorities good. White people bad. I get it.

Guess not, given the yawning chasm of logic you must, Evel Knievel-like, leap over to arrive at this jarring non sequitur.

 

[Elixir]

Trying to drag this back on topic.
A counter to Woke?

I nominate "somnolescent" or something similar but even longer.
If you say it super nicely "Oh, you're so somnolescent, honey. Bless your heart!" it sounds really sweet and they'll smile.

for use to anybody but black people. What are you even talking about here?

uh ... y'know the the way that black people turned the N word into a positive while the persecuted whites have kept it negative?
You could say that black people have appropriated MAGA as an insult, calling them MAGAts etc (they fucking asked for it!) and stuff while, to white people, (MAGAts) being MAGA is a big positive, but really - that's such weaksauce.

 

[Derec]

America produces more energy and food than it consumes.

The first one is almost entirely due to the Shale revolution/fracking. Guess who wanted to ban fracking?

Twitter has lost eighty percent of its value under Musk.

I see your Twitter example and raise you a Space X booster.

That said, I do think RVonse is exaggerating, but there is certainly a lot of waste in the federal government.

They are anti-vaxxers both. Vaccinations make us healthy. RFK Jr. is even talking about banning fluoridation of water. This is la-la land stuff, stuff that John Birchers were talking about sixty years ago. RFK Jr. is a loon, like Trump and Musk.

He just doesn't want his precious bodily fluids to get sapped and impurified.

None of this is true. Biden has deported as many people as Trump. Obama deported even more. The high point of illegal immigration was at the end of the presidency of Dumbya, a Rethuglican.

How many has Biden let in though through misconceived asylum policies? Democrats also support sanctuary cities which actively oppose ICE efforts to deport illegals, even criminal ones.
And Bushes are a disappointment on the issue of mass migration. His brother even called illegal immigration "an act of love".

Speak for yourself. You don’t get to tell women they must make babies. And I’m pretty sure you mean white babies.

And I am pretty sure you mean "anybody but white babies". The Left rejoices at the prospect of white people becoming a minority everywhere, even Europe.

Maybe incels could get laid (not “layed”) if they were not such stupid whiny misogynist fucks.

The notion that men who have difficulties finding sexual partners are "misogynist fucks" is as inaccurate as it is offensive.

It actually has more buying power. Groceries are more affordable now than they were ini 2019, according to published data.

[citation needed]

Which happened under a Republican administration that pursued deregulation, as Trump and Musk will do again.

Some regulation need strengthening, some need loosening. We also need to do things like modernize our ports, but that is being blocked by the overly powerful unions.

Bitcoin or gold standard … Except for the Bitcoin part, are you living in 1875?

I am with you here. Gold standard is unworkable in a modern economy, and bitcoin is a joke as a currency.

 

[Derec]

Are you sure they weren’t just random people the TV station picked up?

No. Actual #BLM activists have supported looting. Here is a #BLM leader from Chicago for example:
Black Lives Matter Chicago Organizer Defends Looting: 'That's Reparations'
More from Chicago:
Illinois state senator defends Chicago teens' rioting, looting: 'It's a mass protest'
Deray McKesson, a national #BLM leader, even had a lecture at Yale defending looting.
'Black Lives' leader defends looting in Yale lecture

I ask because it’s clear you don’t value the opinion of random individuals.

They are not random individuals, but #BLM activists, and at least one state senator.

Personally, I call looting theft

Then you disagree with many "woke" activists.

 

[Derec]

The issue isn’t about who they’re twisting it for; it’s about the act of taking something positive and distorting it into something negative.

But I would argue that by 2014 "woke" has not meant "something positive". It had already been distorted. It has become a target for ridicule because activists (contra Bomb #20, I think this applies to both white and black activists) were using "woke" as a signifier for their ridiculous opinions.

They could just as easily critique the actual arguments and policies from those who’ve adopted the term, instead of ignoring its roots in Black culture. By using it in a derogatory way, they assume we won’t notice the underlying dog-whistle.

I do not think it's a "dog whistle". More like "racial tinnitus". Words evolve. Ridiculing wokesters of the 21st century is no more a dig against 1930s black culture than using "thug" for violent criminals is a dig against Hinduism.

This is especially apparent in conservative media, where 'woke' is often used as a catch-all criticism against DEI, affirmative action, and other issues historically associated with Black advocacy.

While I agree that "woke" has been overused by conservatives such as RdS as a catch-all, the policies you mentioned here are good examples of racist policies that deserve ridicule.

 

[Derec]

[*]Healthy Population: The Trump administration rolled back numerous food and environmental regulations, which arguably made it easier for harmful chemicals to remain in the market.

Not to mention his mismanagement of COVID. He did have the Operation Warp Speed, but he undid it with his rhetoric. That's probably the worst part about Trump. Even when he does something good, he can't take the W and messes it up again.

[*]Border Security: While Trump enacted strict border policies, his focus on physical barriers and controversial policies like family separation failed to establish a sustainable or effective immigration reform.

Physical barriers are an important part of a comprehensive strategy. A wall cannot prevent crossings, but it can slow them down for border patrol to arrive and apprehend the illegals. Of course, that is useless as long as "catch and release" policies are in effect.
As to "family separation", it was a court order that made it impossible to hold families together. So it was either hold them separately, or just let them in en masse. And then they are virtually impossible to deport even when their asylum cases fail.

If I recall correctly he snubbed Mitch McConnell on a border bill because? I don't fucking know you tell me! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He did. That was a misstep for sure.

[*]Promoting Population Growth: Trump's policies didn’t particularly support family growth, nor did he address the deeper social issues affecting young people, like housing and job stability.

Fair enough. Although I do not think we should target population growth as a long-term strategy. Our country is finite. The planet is finite. Population growth (and especially exponential population growth, which is what a constant growth rate means) is unsustainable. We must learn to have a functioning economy and social programs with a stable population.

He's not the right candidate, but I guess Trump becomes the default choice when the alternative is a woman of color.

Are we going to paper over all the shortcomings of Kamala Harris by pretending people only don't like her because she is a woman and "of color" (a term meant to other white people btw.)?
I must admit that I thought Kamala Harris had some potential in 2019. I did not like her support for FOSTA/SESTA, but she started with a lot of advantages. Then she fumbled. She chose to contest the left-outside lane with Bernie and Fauxachontas (instead of the inside lane with Biden, Buttigieg and Amy "Mad Hatter" Klobuchar) and proposed stupid things like banning fracking and private health insurance. She baselessly attacked Biden on busing. And she mismanaged her campaign to the extent that it was broke before 2020 rolled around even though she had an early lock on large donors. Without the George Floyd riots, she most likely would not have been the running mate, and in 2024 she became the nominee without having to go through the primaries.
She is only competitive because her opponent is Trump and she is seen as the lesser weevil.