Needed: Counterpart to 'Woke'

[Derec]

As my economics professor said, "Anyone who is worried their fiat currency is worthless is welcome to leave it with me."

I concur.

We could use some kind of rock as a store of wealth. It needs to be fairly rare and easy to identify. It's rarity means your economy can't exceed the number of available rocks. Anyone without a rock has to go back to some kind of barter system for goods and services in order to survive. This is quite inefficient, especially when long distances are involved.

It has been done before.
 Rai stones

 

[Derec]

Or just go with granite so everyone can be wealthy.

Why not adopt the leaf as a legal tender?

 

[Derec]

Would your economics professor pick up a penny off the sidewalk if he was in a hurry? He would if he lived back in the early 1900's.

I think it would be a good idea to stop making new pennies and nickels, round all prices to the nearest dime, and phase out these two coins as legal tender.

The dollar was in fact based on gold until 1971. We did just fine.

The problem with the gold standard is that your money supply is limited by a mineable resource. It's not workable as the economy grows faster than gold reserves.

What does all this money stuff have to do with the concept of "woke"?

 

[bilby]

I think it would be a good idea to stop making new pennies and nickels, round all prices to the nearest dime, and phase out these two coins as legal tender.

in 1992, Australia withdrew coins smaller than 5¢, and cash transactions here are rounded to the nearest 5¢. Prices are to the cent, and it is the transaction total that is rounded, so the impact is minuscule*.

It's only downside has been confusion amongst tourists who suspect they might be being defrauded when they expected 97¢ change, but only got 95¢ handed to them.

Cash transactions have become very rare here though, and non-cash transactions are still denominated to the nearest 1¢.

I haven't paid cash, or been paid in cash, for anything for at least five years; I had essentially stopped using the stuff even before the whole Covid thing pushed a lot of local businesses into going cashless. Around here, cash is used by criminals, children, and geriatrics. Even physical credit and debit cards are disappearing - people use their phones instead.

The whole business of coins and change seems pointless; The dollar has become sufficiently low in value that the cent should probably be abandoned altogether, and prices just denominated in whole dollars.








* In theory, you could make money by dividing your shopping into a number of separate transactions each of which attracts a rounding down of 1 or 2¢; In practice, this would make money at an hourly rate that even a penniless derelict would baulk at. You could "earn" up to perhaps twenty cents a week by this scheme, if you were prepared to put in a lot of effort in carefully planning every trip to the shop. Walking the streets looking for discarded soda cans, and claiming the 10¢ deposit on them, would be a vastly more lucrative use of your time.

 

[BH]

betas thought , mental jizz come to mind

 

[Bronzeage]

If the citizens in those countries prefer to use our dollars to trade in their countries, then basically we are getting their goods and services for the paper we printed out money.

Point of information: Money is mostly not printed on anything. The vast majority of money today exists as numbers in a computer, and the marginal cost of producing more money is therefore zero.

So you are getting those goods and/or sevices for nothing.

Complaining that getting stuff for nothing makes you "feel bad" seems to me rather churlish, not to mention foolish.

This is a very short sided view and it is better for the billionaire class, I will give you that. But this arrangement is far worse for the labor class (far outnumbering the billionaire class) whose subsistence depends on their labor. Because their ability to support themselves directly depends on what they actually accomplish and produce. That class no longer has any local production infrastructure so they are left in the cold.

But far worse is that the rest of the world will not indefinitely produce goods for nothing. The free ride for the billionaire class will not last forever. One can see the free ride ending simply by looking at interest expense of the federal debt becoming higher to the point it outdoes federal tax receipts. That is when the rest of the world finally wakes up to the dollar only being pure fiat and nothing more. This consequence will be devastating and dire for the US. The cost of imported goods will sky rocket with no local means of production making the US instantly a 3rd world economy. In the final analysis, it is only real assets and ability to produce goods and services that matters to sustained well being of everyone.

As my economics professor said, "Anyone who is worried their fiat currency is worthless is welcome to leave it with me."

We could use some kind of rock as a store of wealth. It needs to be fairly rare and easy to identify. It's rarity means your economy can't exceed the number of available rocks. Anyone without a rock has to go back to some kind of barter system for goods and services in order to survive. This is quite inefficient, especially when long distances are involved. If I need lumber, I might be able to trade potatoes for it, but only if the guy who has a desirable tree lives somewhere close. Maybe he doesn't like potatoes and I'll have to find a tree somewhere farther away. I have to act quickly because potatoes don't last forever. The time it takes to carry the potatoes to the tree and then drag the tree back is time I could spend planting potatoes. This is all because I'm digging potatoes, not gold.

In a really dire economic crisis, my sack of potatoes would be worth more than a sack of gold because I can eat the potatoes and the other guy can't eat his tree, any more than he can eat gold.

Would your economics professor pick up a penny off the sidewalk if he was in a hurry? He would if he lived back in the early 1900's. Even in my lifetime I have seen it possible to buy a coke for 5 cents.

The dollar was in fact based on gold until 1971. We did just fine. In fact probably better in the 50s and 60s. Were it not for LBJ spending and the fed printing press, we might still be on the gold standard and be able to buy 5 cent cokes and 40 cent/gallon gas.

What's the difference between the government printing money and me discovering a vein of ore that can produce a ton of gold a year?

Your nickel bought 6 ounces of Coke, while you could have gotten twice as much Pepsi. For myself, six days a week, I spend 78 cents for 64 ounces of Coke Zero, which all things considered, is a better deal than your 5cent Coke.

 

[Elixir]

If the citizens in those countries prefer to use our dollars to trade in their countries, then basically we are getting their goods and services for the paper we printed out money.

Point of information: Money is mostly not printed on anything. The vast majority of money today exists as numbers in a computer, and the marginal cost of producing more money is therefore zero.

So you are getting those goods and/or sevices for nothing.

Complaining that getting stuff for nothing makes you "feel bad" seems to me rather churlish, not to mention foolish.

This is a very short sided view and it is better for the billionaire class, I will give you that. But this arrangement is far worse for the labor class (far outnumbering the billionaire class) whose subsistence depends on their labor. Because their ability to support themselves directly depends on what they actually accomplish and produce. That class no longer has any local production infrastructure so they are left in the cold.

But far worse is that the rest of the world will not indefinitely produce goods for nothing. The free ride for the billionaire class will not last forever. One can see the free ride ending simply by looking at interest expense of the federal debt becoming higher to the point it outdoes federal tax receipts. That is when the rest of the world finally wakes up to the dollar only being pure fiat and nothing more. This consequence will be devastating and dire for the US. The cost of imported goods will sky rocket with no local means of production making the US instantly a 3rd world economy. In the final analysis, it is only real assets and ability to produce goods and services that matters to sustained well being of everyone.

As my economics professor said, "Anyone who is worried their fiat currency is worthless is welcome to leave it with me."

We could use some kind of rock as a store of wealth. It needs to be fairly rare and easy to identify. It's rarity means your economy can't exceed the number of available rocks. Anyone without a rock has to go back to some kind of barter system for goods and services in order to survive. This is quite inefficient, especially when long distances are involved. If I need lumber, I might be able to trade potatoes for it, but only if the guy who has a desirable tree lives somewhere close. Maybe he doesn't like potatoes and I'll have to find a tree somewhere farther away. I have to act quickly because potatoes don't last forever. The time it takes to carry the potatoes to the tree and then drag the tree back is time I could spend planting potatoes. This is all because I'm digging potatoes, not gold.

In a really dire economic crisis, my sack of potatoes would be worth more than a sack of gold because I can eat the potatoes and the other guy can't eat his tree, any more than he can eat gold.

Would your economics professor pick up a penny off the sidewalk if he was in a hurry? He would if he lived back in the early 1900's. Even in my lifetime I have seen it possible to buy a coke for 5 cents.

The dollar was in fact based on gold until 1971. We did just fine. In fact probably better in the 50s and 60s. Were it not for LBJ spending and the fed printing press, we might still be on the gold standard and be able to buy 5 cent cokes and 40 cent/gallon gas.

What's the difference between the government printing money and me discovering a vein of ore that can produce a ton of gold a year?

Your nickel bought 6 ounces of Coke, while you could have gotten twice as much Pepsi. For myself, six days a week, I spend 78 cents for 64 ounces of Coke Zero, which all things considered, is a better deal than your 5cent Coke.

‘Cept then you gotta go out and buy your own caffeine and sugar.

 

[Bronzeage]

If the citizens in those countries prefer to use our dollars to trade in their countries, then basically we are getting their goods and services for the paper we printed out money.

Point of information: Money is mostly not printed on anything. The vast majority of money today exists as numbers in a computer, and the marginal cost of producing more money is therefore zero.

So you are getting those goods and/or sevices for nothing.

Complaining that getting stuff for nothing makes you "feel bad" seems to me rather churlish, not to mention foolish.

This is a very short sided view and it is better for the billionaire class, I will give you that. But this arrangement is far worse for the labor class (far outnumbering the billionaire class) whose subsistence depends on their labor. Because their ability to support themselves directly depends on what they actually accomplish and produce. That class no longer has any local production infrastructure so they are left in the cold.

But far worse is that the rest of the world will not indefinitely produce goods for nothing. The free ride for the billionaire class will not last forever. One can see the free ride ending simply by looking at interest expense of the federal debt becoming higher to the point it outdoes federal tax receipts. That is when the rest of the world finally wakes up to the dollar only being pure fiat and nothing more. This consequence will be devastating and dire for the US. The cost of imported goods will sky rocket with no local means of production making the US instantly a 3rd world economy. In the final analysis, it is only real assets and ability to produce goods and services that matters to sustained well being of everyone.

As my economics professor said, "Anyone who is worried their fiat currency is worthless is welcome to leave it with me."

We could use some kind of rock as a store of wealth. It needs to be fairly rare and easy to identify. It's rarity means your economy can't exceed the number of available rocks. Anyone without a rock has to go back to some kind of barter system for goods and services in order to survive. This is quite inefficient, especially when long distances are involved. If I need lumber, I might be able to trade potatoes for it, but only if the guy who has a desirable tree lives somewhere close. Maybe he doesn't like potatoes and I'll have to find a tree somewhere farther away. I have to act quickly because potatoes don't last forever. The time it takes to carry the potatoes to the tree and then drag the tree back is time I could spend planting potatoes. This is all because I'm digging potatoes, not gold.

In a really dire economic crisis, my sack of potatoes would be worth more than a sack of gold because I can eat the potatoes and the other guy can't eat his tree, any more than he can eat gold.

Would your economics professor pick up a penny off the sidewalk if he was in a hurry? He would if he lived back in the early 1900's. Even in my lifetime I have seen it possible to buy a coke for 5 cents.

The dollar was in fact based on gold until 1971. We did just fine. In fact probably better in the 50s and 60s. Were it not for LBJ spending and the fed printing press, we might still be on the gold standard and be able to buy 5 cent cokes and 40 cent/gallon gas.

What's the difference between the government printing money and me discovering a vein of ore that can produce a ton of gold a year?

Your nickel bought 6 ounces of Coke, while you could have gotten twice as much Pepsi. For myself, six days a week, I spend 78 cents for 64 ounces of Coke Zero, which all things considered, is a better deal than your 5cent Coke.

‘Cept then you gotta go out and buy your own caffeine and sugar.

I certainly don't expect someone else to buy it for me. That would be socialism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The dollar was in fact based on gold until 1971. We did just fine. In fact probably better in the 50s and 60s. Were it not for LBJ spending and the fed printing press, we might still be on the gold standard and be able to buy 5 cent cokes and 40 cent/gallon gas.

What's important is what you can buy with your income, not what prices are. A much better scale is how many minutes of work are needed to buy a gallon of gas.

(Scroll to the table near the bottom

Gasoline Prices vs. Wages Over Time

Inflation doesn't affect all prices equally. Let's look at how Gasoline Prices and Wages relate since the 1930s.

inflationdata.com

And that has been going down. And that's what my pocketbook cares about.

In 1950 a gallon of fuel could be bought with lower wage minutes than today. But that completely misses the point anyway. You want NO inflation at all with the currency. Not because of buying power but because

The range of wages has increased. Look at the averages. Gas is cheaper.

And, no, in the real world I do not want no inflation. No inflation is an ideal state that is impossible to attain because of the economic cycle. And the cycle is less harmful if it's set up to not cross the zero.

1) it messes with people saving money for the future. Workers have no secure way to save for retirement.

Over a lifetime investing in a stock index fund has always been superior. And in general it's superior over much shorter intervals. (It does take a long interval to end up ahead if you had gotten into the market in 1929.)

2) It messes with the efficiency of free market capitalism because real prices are difficult to know. Is your painting worth more today than it was yesterday because peer collectors like it more or is it just price inflation?

You can tell how things perform relative to other things. You have to anyway because an entirely fixed system doesn't permit the market to change.

3) If history is any guide, inflation and currency debasement always brings down a civilization. It happened before with Rome, Spain, France, Denmark, and the UK. Look at Argentina and Valenzuela today. Is that really the proper goal for the US?

If history is any guide a central bank maintaining a low inflation rate is superior to a gold standard or the like. You just need to elect competent people, not the QOP. And you can wreck an economy that's on the gold standard--look at what happened to Spain with all the loot from the New World.

There very well might be a layer of solid gold under the Caloris basin. Even confirming it's existence is beyond current tech, let alone mining it. But what happens to your gold standard economy when someone can mine it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thankfully the voting public does. They knew during the last election that their was a huge disconnect between the real economy and the data.

The data doesn't say what I want it to say so it's wrong.

The data did not agree with the reality of people who knew if their lives were getting better or not.

People don't know. They keep listening to the endless stream of disinformation saying how horrible things are. But we simply don't see those horrible things.

None of the government data is believable anymore. In the first place, in order for data to be believed you can not change the metrics of how it is calculated like what has happened with inflation numbers. The government likes to cover up bad data because they know just the numbers can bring on bad sentiment with the economy. But that short sided political advantage is more than offset by the long term damage that has now been done. The government has destroyed their reputation just like main stream legacy media has. Their data has become irrelevant to most people and for good reason.

Standard MO for a cult: All other sources of information are lying to you. The cult is the only valid source of truth.

In reality you have to look at what both sides are saying. If you look only at one side you're going to fall for whatever biases they have.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Would your economics professor pick up a penny off the sidewalk if he was in a hurry? He would if he lived back in the early 1900's. Even in my lifetime I have seen it possible to buy a coke for 5 cents.

The dollar was in fact based on gold until 1971. We did just fine. In fact probably better in the 50s and 60s. Were it not for LBJ spending and the fed printing press, we might still be on the gold standard and be able to buy 5 cent cokes and 40 cent/gallon gas.

You're talking about good times caused by special circumstances that will not return.

No argument. That does not mean we can not use the good times we once experienced as our goal. Do we want stable prosperity or do we want to shoot for shit 2% inflation (which is really more like >8%)?

If your goal is unattainable you'll always be unhappy and be looking for other answers.

And we had stable prosperity until Covid messed us up. And I do not see that supposed 8%. We had a supply chain shock that did as expected and increased prices. But things look like they're back to normal. Remember that that does not mean prices will return to their old level! If that's your yardstick you'll be forever unhappy.

 

[ZiprHead]

There's nothing wrong with woke. It just needs to be taken back from the assholes who've abducted it and raped it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think it would be a good idea to stop making new pennies and nickels, round all prices to the nearest dime, and phase out these two coins as legal tender.

in 1992, Australia withdrew coins smaller than 5¢, and cash transactions here are rounded to the nearest 5¢. Prices are to the cent, and it is the transaction total that is rounded, so the impact is minuscule*.

It's only downside has been confusion amongst tourists who suspect they might be being defrauded when they expected 97¢ change, but only got 95¢ handed to them.

Yup, same thing happened for a while in China. Their equivalent of the 1 cent and 5 cent coins were removed, but many prices continued to have two digits after the decimal place because of their love for .88 prices. (Nothing to do with Hitler, but rather a homonym for IIRC wealth. They go bonkers for eights.)

The whole business of coins and change seems pointless; The dollar has become sufficiently low in value that the cent should probably be abandoned altogether, and prices just denominated in whole dollars.

Disagree. Looking in the produce department here I find many things where the price is under $1 per item or per pound. And will a $2 item go on sale for $1? Not likely.

 

[bilby]

Looking in the produce department here I find many things where the price is under $1 per item or per pound.

So do what traders always did when stuff was worth less than the smallest coin.

Sell more for the lowest possible price.

Two for a dollar. $1/kg, rather than $1/lb - or 2lb for a buck. It's not rocket surgery. It's not even a new problem.

 

[Gospel]

Is it fair to suggest that those who criticize 'woke'—an idea IMO fused with American ideals of justice and equality—are, in a sense, challenging core American values? Just as some might question the sustainability or global perception of the U.S. dollar or American's broader ideological agenda, using 'woke' derogatorily risks discarding America's fundamental values. Criticizing the perceived ideological 'free ride' or forceful promotion of 'woke' ideals may be valid, but dismissing 'woke' entirely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[RVonse]

Thankfully the voting public does. They knew during the last election that their was a huge disconnect between the real economy and the data.

The data doesn't say what I want it to say so it's wrong.

The data did not agree with the reality of people who knew if their lives were getting better or not.

People don't know. They keep listening to the endless stream of disinformation saying how horrible things are. But we simply don't see those horrible things.

None of the government data is believable anymore. In the first place, in order for data to be believed you can not change the metrics of how it is calculated like what has happened with inflation numbers. The government likes to cover up bad data because they know just the numbers can bring on bad sentiment with the economy. But that short sided political advantage is more than offset by the long term damage that has now been done. The government has destroyed their reputation just like main stream legacy media has. Their data has become irrelevant to most people and for good reason.

Standard MO for a cult: All other sources of information are lying to you. The cult is the only valid source of truth.

In reality you have to look at what both sides are saying. If you look only at one side you're going to fall for whatever biases they have.

The people most certainly knew what was going on when they bought food, rent, and saw the price of new cars. Its not a cult to know government CPI is complete bull shit when inflation is claimed to be low while the price of milk has doubled in price. Its called pulling your head out of your ass and observing reality.

Indeed, it is the Harris side in their own cult pretending a good economy, trusting all government statistics, all the while knowing full well how their individual economic well being was been decimated. That is what I call standard MO for a cult believing in the fed and its money printing tricks.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

None of the government data is believable anymore. In the first place, in order for data to be believed you can not change the metrics of how it is calculated like what has happened with inflation numbers. The government likes to cover up bad data because they know just the numbers can bring on bad sentiment with the economy. But that short sided political advantage is more than offset by the long term damage that has now been done. The government has destroyed their reputation just like main stream legacy media has. Their data has become irrelevant to most people and for good reason.

Standard MO for a cult: All other sources of information are lying to you. The cult is the only valid source of truth.

In reality you have to look at what both sides are saying. If you look only at one side you're going to fall for whatever biases they have.

The people most certainly knew what was going on when they bought food, rent, and saw the price of new cars. Its not a cult to know government CPI is complete bull shit when inflation is claimed to be low while the price of milk has doubled in price. Its called pulling your head out of your ass and observing reality.

Indeed, it is the Harris side in their own cult pretending a good economy, trusting all government statistics, all the while knowing full well how their individual economic well being was been decimated.

And yet, you seem gleeful that the GOP is still in power. Or is it only the Democrats that use funny statistics. Biden and Harris apparently managed to take the perfected economy of Trump's in 2019 and transition America back to the 1930s.

Trump signed off on a huge tax revenue heist for huge corporations and you think he gives a fuck about you..

 

[laughing dog]

Thankfully the voting public does. They knew during the last election that their was a huge disconnect between the real economy and the data.

The data doesn't say what I want it to say so it's wrong.

The data did not agree with the reality of people who knew if their lives were getting better or not.

People don't know. They keep listening to the endless stream of disinformation saying how horrible things are. But we simply don't see those horrible things.

None of the government data is believable anymore. In the first place, in order for data to be believed you can not change the metrics of how it is calculated like what has happened with inflation numbers. The government likes to cover up bad data because they know just the numbers can bring on bad sentiment with the economy. But that short sided political advantage is more than offset by the long term damage that has now been done. The government has destroyed their reputation just like main stream legacy media has. Their data has become irrelevant to most people and for good reason.

Standard MO for a cult: All other sources of information are lying to you. The cult is the only valid source of truth.

In reality you have to look at what both sides are saying. If you look only at one side you're going to fall for whatever biases they have.

The people most certainly knew what was going on when they bought food, rent, and saw the price of new cars. Its not a cult to know government CPI is complete bull shit when inflation is claimed to be low while the price of milk has doubled in price. Its called pulling your head out of your ass and observing reality.

Since measures of inflation are averages of many prices, it is quite possible that the price of one item had a significantly different rate of growth than others. That is nature of averages. Your analysis is naive.

One of my brothers is a Trump supporter anf he bitches about inflation even though his income in the past 4 years outpaced inflation. But he views his income increases as something he earned (that the general state of the rconomy did not influence) and inflation is the fault of the government. Funny that when Trump was President and inflation outpaced his income growth, it was not the fault of government.

 

[ZiprHead]

Thankfully the voting public does. They knew during the last election that their was a huge disconnect between the real economy and the data.

The data doesn't say what I want it to say so it's wrong.

The data did not agree with the reality of people who knew if their lives were getting better or not.

People don't know. They keep listening to the endless stream of disinformation saying how horrible things are. But we simply don't see those horrible things.

None of the government data is believable anymore. In the first place, in order for data to be believed you can not change the metrics of how it is calculated like what has happened with inflation numbers. The government likes to cover up bad data because they know just the numbers can bring on bad sentiment with the economy. But that short sided political advantage is more than offset by the long term damage that has now been done. The government has destroyed their reputation just like main stream legacy media has. Their data has become irrelevant to most people and for good reason.

Standard MO for a cult: All other sources of information are lying to you. The cult is the only valid source of truth.

In reality you have to look at what both sides are saying. If you look only at one side you're going to fall for whatever biases they have.

The people most certainly knew what was going on when they bought food, rent, and saw the price of new cars. Its not a cult to know government CPI is complete bull shit when inflation is claimed to be low while the price of milk has doubled in price. Its called pulling your head out of your ass and observing reality.

This shows you have absolutely no idea of how the CPI and the Inflation rate are calculated. Hint: it was calculated the same way under Trump.

Indeed, it is the Harris side in their own cult pretending a good economy, trusting all government statistics, all the while knowing full well how their individual economic well being was been decimated. That is what I call standard MO for a cult believing in the fed and its money printing tricks.

 

[RVonse]

None of the government data is believable anymore. In the first place, in order for data to be believed you can not change the metrics of how it is calculated like what has happened with inflation numbers. The government likes to cover up bad data because they know just the numbers can bring on bad sentiment with the economy. But that short sided political advantage is more than offset by the long term damage that has now been done. The government has destroyed their reputation just like main stream legacy media has. Their data has become irrelevant to most people and for good reason.

Standard MO for a cult: All other sources of information are lying to you. The cult is the only valid source of truth.

In reality you have to look at what both sides are saying. If you look only at one side you're going to fall for whatever biases they have.

The people most certainly knew what was going on when they bought food, rent, and saw the price of new cars. Its not a cult to know government CPI is complete bull shit when inflation is claimed to be low while the price of milk has doubled in price. Its called pulling your head out of your ass and observing reality.

Indeed, it is the Harris side in their own cult pretending a good economy, trusting all government statistics, all the while knowing full well how their individual economic well being was been decimated.

And yet, you seem gleeful that the GOP is still in power. Or is it only the Democrats that use funny statistics. Biden and Harris apparently managed to take the perfected economy of Trump's in 2019 and transition America back to the 1930s.

Trump signed off on a huge tax revenue heist for huge corporations and you think he gives a fuck about you..

If we all could be honest, Trump lost his 2020 election due to the pandemic which wasn't his fault (came from China). And Harris lost her 2024 election due to actions occurred during both Trump and Biden; shutting down firms while printing money for goods no longer produced (causing huge inflation).

Unfortunately voters don't see past their nose to blame who really ruined their economy and way of life. And since no one tells the truth anymore (especially the fed) no one believes the truth even if it slips out.