Netanyahu has lost his fucking mind

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well the weirdbeards get a lot of sympathy from far left in the US. Just look at what untermensche writes about Iran.

So untermensche represents all of the far left?

Also, it is a well known fact that the Islamic revolution was supported by Iranian Marxist groups. Again and again we see cooperation between the far left and Islamism. See also German Marxist gang and Palestinian terrorists who hijacked an Air France flight to Entebbe. Or ties between Maoist Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam.

And in general Marxists in your examples represent socialism and left-wing politics as much as clams do.

That noted, factions within both sides are nuts and continue to propagate the problems we see between the two overall parties. In general, Palestinians are losing.

The Palestinians have their fate in their own hands - end terrorism and there is no reasons for Israel to retaliate.

How does that deal with the settlements?

More of them get killed,

That hardly matters...

It does to the grieving families.

...as they are more than replenished due to very high birth rates.

Wow... didn't think it'd go there. That is incredibly... wow. I don't even know how to respond to such an insensitive comment.

The humanitarian situation in Gaza is primarily so dire because of huge population increase over the last few decades.

Poverty and high birth rates have been a thing for quite a while, millennia some would say.

more of them lose their homes, more of them live in poverty, more of them have absolutely no where to turn.

And that is largely their own fault...

Not really. They didn't steal their own land from themselves and then build places to live. You are simply looking at this from a ridiculously one-sided position with absolutely no grasp of what normal Palestinians are dealing with day to day. Not every Palestinian is a member of Hamas, despite what some want to claim.

Of course the Israelis have suffered losses as well. Sadly, when the radicals control the arguments from both sides, there is rarely ever going to be a solution.

There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Palestinian terrorists. And sadly Abbas, for all his feigned moderation, is one of them.

Yeah, I can see the points went well over your head, which is part of the problem with trying to discuss the Israel - Palestinian problem.

 

[angelo]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israeli lay down their arms, there would be a genocide!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What you are missing is that Iran is already attacking Israel.

No. Iran does not share a border with Israel, and the Iranian military are not able to overfly Iraq in order to get there, nor do they have the capability to get there by sea.

Iran may be sponsoring and assisting non-Iranian groups who are fighting Israel, but only someone who was deliberately trying to be inflammatory would describe that state of affairs with the bald statement "Iran is already attacking Israel".

The use of proxy troops doesn't make it not attacking as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do we see Jewish teens going around murdering Palestinians?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_and_murder_of_Mohammed_Abu_Khdeir

Anyway, it's off-topic. Derec's post made it sound like he thinks only Palestinian kids are being taught to share their parent's bigotry and hate. That's simply not true.

One case--and it wasn't done by teens.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.681956

"Palestinian Attacks Fueled by Settler Violence, Senior Israeli Commander Says"

Inflammatory and from Haaretz, your first assumption should be that it's false.

Your first assumption should be that you need to find more information about this Senior Israeli Commander and what he actually said before you conclude anything about him or his statements.

You don't think Ha'aretz is a good source? Alright. Don't rely on them. Do your own research.

I don't care about who he is because I have no idea whether he really said it in the first place.

 

[maxparrish]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israeli lay down their arms, there would be a genocide!

Succinct and conclusive. The truth of that statement is EXACTLY the moral difference between the adversaries.

 

[laughing dog]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israeli lay down their arms, there would be a genocide!

Bullshit squared.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons rocks, there will be peace, but the Palestinians will still be homeless. If the Israeli lay down their military arms, there would be a genocide! nominal violence that would need to be addressed, but wouldn't lead to the annihilation of the Jewish state.

FIFY.

 

[arkirk]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israeli lay down their arms, there would be a genocide!

And why do you think it would be like that? Whenever any terrible conflict ends somebody always takes the last shot. Your proposed scenario is either Israel commits genocide (as it is doing now with U.S. logistical support) or the Palestinians commit genocide. That's such a warm and cheery thing to contemplate. It is your mind that is in a rut and unable to conceptualize a way to accomplish peace. You lack the imagination to begin to suggest ways to undo this continuing death trap for so many people. What you have to understand is that if the MAJOR POWERS in the world decided there would be peace in the ME, there would be peace. These ME wars are all proxy contests between larger nations that truly are not part of the ME. We keep selling and giving war hardware to Israel and Saudi Arabia and our arms in the area are creating a lot of the havoc. The Russians and the Iranians are doing the same. This all came about due to a false overvaluation of petroleum resources over human beings. Most of the oil reserves in the world have to stay in the ground, so let's stop making people murder each other over it. We are as guilty as anybody. Our guilt is worse than some of the Islamists because their philosophy or guiding principles are not as well informed by science and we make no effort to inform them without humiliating them. The ME and indeed the world today is at the mercy of the fossil fuel industrial developers who have been hiding the material facts from their own public and the ME societies. The ME societies are suffering under the burden of external domination and Islam at the same time. Western violence drives people in the region into the arms of a welcoming Islamic extremist portion of their society and we have ugly things like ISIS springing up as a result. The root cause still is the thrust of western forces for ME natural resources without regard for the human beings living in the area. That is the only part that we can control from our end. That is why a lot of the solution to this ME madness is the successful development of alternative energy. If the people of the ME ever stop being assaulted by outside forces or war equipment, they might eventually opt for education and an improved quality of life. As long as there is just the life and death struggle no progress will be made.

 

[untermensche]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israeli lay down their arms, there would be a genocide!

Succinct and conclusive. The truth of that statement is EXACTLY the moral difference between the adversaries.

Israel has been abusing and oppressing and torturing and killing Palestinians non-stop for decades.

How anybody can see them as a moral agent is astounding.

 

[angelo]

Succinct and conclusive. The truth of that statement is EXACTLY the moral difference between the adversaries.

Israel has been abusing and oppressing and torturing and killing Palestinians non-stop for decades.

How anybody can see them as a moral agent is astounding.

You would see it as well if only you opened your eyes. Palestinian apologists support terrorism. I wonder if they still would support them if their own families faced these terrorist attacks daily!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem lays thus: if the Palestinians lay down their weapons rocks, there will be peace, but the Palestinians will still be homeless. If the Israeli lay down their military arms, there would be a genocide! nominal violence that would need to be addressed, but wouldn't lead to the annihilation of the Jewish state.

FIFY.

1) The violence would not be "nominal". Their stated goal is extirpation, nothing suggests they would settle for less.

2) The violence predates any Israeli actions whatsoever and thus can't be due to any actions of Israel. Thus any explanation that blames it on Israeli actions is categorically false.

3) Look at the fate of Jews in Islamist territory. It's been extirpation. Why should we expect anything different this time.


One of the standard definitions of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Jews in Islamist lands has been tried repeatedly, the result is always the same.

 

[Ford]

One of the standard definitions of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

Well thank goodness nobody's ever tried to secure the "holy land" for the Judeo-Christian side of things and expel the Muslims!


Because that would be insanity.

 

[Arctish]

FIFY.

1) The violence would not be "nominal". Their stated goal is extirpation, nothing suggests they would settle for less.

There's a shit ton of evidence they would settle for less than the extirpation of Jews. There is so much evidence they would gladly accept their own state based on the 1967 borders with a few land swaps, joint control of aquifers, natural resources, borders, and airspace, that arguing otherwise makes you look silly.

2) The violence predates any Israeli actions whatsoever and thus can't be due to any actions of Israel. Thus any explanation that blames it on Israeli actions is categorically false.

The violence predates the actual formation of the State of Israel. But it does not predate the actions taken in order to form the State of Israel. It does not predate Plan Dalet, the massacre at Deir Yassin, the bombing campaigns, the riots, the kidnappings, the murders, etc. Thus, any word play that attempts to substitute Israeli for Zionist is an attempt to obfuscate and mislead.

The current conflict began with the efforts to form a Jewish State in a place where Jews were a small minority, against the interests of and without including the resident non-Jewish population. It has continued, as efforts to place everything of value under Israeli control and relocate non-Jews from lands seized for Zionist settlements have continued.

3) Look at the fate of Jews in Islamist territory. It's been extirpation. Why should we expect anything different this time.

One of the standard definitions of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Jews in Islamist lands has been tried repeatedly, the result is always the same.

Factually and historically incorrect.

You know perfectly well the reason there were Jews in the Middle East at the beginning of the 20th century is because they had been living peacefully with their Muslim and Christian neighbors under the Ottomans for centuries. You know that Jews in Turkey flourished under Muslim rule while Jews in Europe were being treated horribly by Christians. You know this. So forget about peddling that blather about how Jews have to keep the non-Jews under military occupation because it's just not possible for them to live otherwise. That bit of Zionist propaganda is demonstrably false.

Peace does not mean total annihilation of the other side. It doesn't even mean victory. It means two sides agree to stop fighting, and then they do it.

 

[untermensche]

Israel has been abusing and oppressing and torturing and killing Palestinians non-stop for decades.

How anybody can see them as a moral agent is astounding.

You would see it as well if only you opened your eyes. Palestinian apologists support terrorism. I wonder if they still would support them if their own families faced these terrorist attacks daily!

When you oppress people, destroy their homes, torture and kill them, and continually steal from them, you bring terrorism onto yourself.

 

[angelo]

You would see it as well if only you opened your eyes. Palestinian apologists support terrorism. I wonder if they still would support them if their own families faced these terrorist attacks daily!

When you oppress people, destroy their homes, torture and kill them, and continually steal from them, you bring terrorism onto yourself.

Excuse me, but who attacked whom back in 1948 when the UN established a tiny Israeli state in the British mandate?
Any nation has every right to defend its inhabitants from attacking terrorists.

 

[Ford]

Excuse me, but who attacked whom back in 1948 when the UN established a tiny Israeli state in the British mandate?

Well not that attacking was the proper response, but who asked the UN to establish a tiny Israeli state on land that did not belong to them?

The UN carved a new country out of the British mandate without so much as a "by your leave" from the people who inhabited the territory designated to be the new country.

The British mandate itself was a leftover from the Empire's "we don't give a fuck about what you locals might want" policy of establishing zones of control that had nothing to do with what the indigenous people might have desired.


And while you could make the case that the Jewish people have a valid claim regarding their desire to relocate to the land sometimes referred to as "Israel," imposing a state upon the people living in the region and casting them out when they resisted is a bit much. Might even be enough to justify resistance.

 

[untermensche]

When you oppress people, destroy their homes, torture and kill them, and continually steal from them, you bring terrorism onto yourself.

Excuse me, but who attacked whom back in 1948 when the UN established a tiny Israeli state in the British mandate?
Any nation has every right to defend its inhabitants from attacking terrorists.

The thing that shows your position to be full of shit is all the theft of land.

The continual theft of land.

If this was about defense we would not see all the theft of land to establish settlements.

Israel has oppressed the Palestinians. Destroyed their homes. Kidnapped and tortured and killed them.

Non-stop for decades.

This is not about self-defense. This is about slowly moving a population out of the way while a powerful nation steals as much land as possible.

 

[Jayjay]

When you oppress people, destroy their homes, torture and kill them, and continually steal from them, you bring terrorism onto yourself.

Excuse me, but who attacked whom back in 1948 when the UN established a tiny Israeli state in the British mandate?
Any nation has every right to defend its inhabitants from attacking terrorists.

UN didn't establish Israel. The Jewish people living in palestine declared independence, which got them into war with their Arab neighbours, consequence of which was a war that gave them a both demographically and geographically viable state (whereas the UN partition plan had been neither). The UN recognized the state of Israel in 1949 after the war though, just as it recognized Palestinian state in 2012.

 

[Will Wiley]

When you oppress people, destroy their homes, torture and kill them, and continually steal from them, you bring terrorism onto yourself.

Excuse me, but who attacked whom back in 1948 when the UN established a tiny Israeli state in the British mandate?
Any nation has every right to defend its inhabitants from attacking terrorists.

Try learning some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre

Israeli accounts[edit]
A key source are the diaries of Yosef Nahmani, a senior officer in the Haganah, who was also director of the Jewish National Fund in Eastern Galilee from 1935 until 1965. He visited Safsaf or the area around it on November 6, accompanied by the Israeli Minority Affairs minister Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit. The men were briefed by Immanuel Friedman, a representative of the Minority Affairs ministry, who talked about "the cruel acts of our soldiers." The Nachmani diary was released by the Israeli government in the early 1980s. It had been published before, but with the passages about the massacre omitted.[3]

On November 6, 1948, Nachmani wrote: "In Safsaf, after ... the inhabitants had raised a white flag, the [soldiers] collected and separated the men and women, tied the hands of fifty-sixty fellahin [peasants] and shot and killed them and buried them in a pit. Also, they raped several women..." After listing alleged atrocities in other villages—Eilaboun, Farradiyya, and Saliha—Nachmani writes: "Where did they come by such a measure of cruelty, like Nazis? ... Is there no more humane way of expelling the inhabitants than by such methods?"[4]

 

[angelo]

In every war there are isolated incidents where both sides massacre innocents. The fire bombing of Dresden comes to mind. US troops in Vietnam another.