Netanyahu has lost his fucking mind

[angelo]

The right of return is a joke, only it's not funny. Less than half a million left, but now millions are claiming a right of return that if implemented would spell the end of the only Jewish state.

What the fuck do you care if there is a Jewish State? Why must there be a Jewish State? How about simply adopting a humane attitude to both of these terribly misinformed and misled factions.....Arabs and Jews. Your defacto support of the Jewish State in every case and desire to destroy Arabs is highly suspect to me. Why not demand somewhere in the world an Atheist State?

Your support for the Palestinians is not support for terrorism in what way?

 

[angelo]

Each time Abbas, or any other Palestinian Arab makes a speech, there's a version meant for Western , [ Arab apologists ears]
another version meant for Arab ears.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

STILL wrong. Any compromise that allows Palestinians to exercise the right of return is lawful. So long as that right is recognized and upheld, it meets the requirements.

It's not really me you're arguing this with, it's Abbas himself:



You act like Abbas is having his hands tied by hardliners in the Palestinian Authority. Abbas was the one who WROTE that piece of legislation; he understands, better than you, what it means and how it's supposed to be implemented.

Of course he weasels when speaking to western ears

There's nothing "weasely" about that statement: that's actually Abbas taking a harder line than usual about the right of return. In fact, in the context of the speech, alot of western media outlets were surprised by how inflexible this statement seemed; they almost universally interpreted as this as a provocative, confrontational statement towards Israel.

All he's actually saying is that individual Palestinians can choose not exercise it.

That is the exact OPPOSITE of what he's saying.

The statement is very clear: "NO ONE has the right to deprive someone from his right to return." The Palestinian Authority certainly cannot. They can work towards making sure Palestinians are allowed to exercise their rights, but they cannot and will not pass a law or agree to any settlement that restricts it.

What remains to be negotiated is when and how Palestinians will be allowed to exercise that right. This is what he is referring to by "compensation and other details." Most of the physical property that originally belonged to the refugees no longer exist and cannot BE directly returned, so it's a question of what form their return and/or compensation would actually take. THAT needs to be worked out between the two governments in a long-term peace deal. Palestinian law has no restrictions on what kind of deal they reach, only that the deal has to uphold the rights of the refugees.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course he weasels when speaking to western ears

There's nothing "weasely" about that statement: that's actually Abbas taking a harder line than usual about the right of return. In fact, in the context of the speech, alot of western media outlets were surprised by how inflexible this statement seemed; they almost universally interpreted as this as a provocative, confrontational statement towards Israel.

It's quite weasely--he's pretending it's something that can be negotiated but actually saying it isn't. You fell for it so you don't see the weaseling.

All he's actually saying is that individual Palestinians can choose not exercise it.

That is the exact OPPOSITE of what he's saying.

The statement is very clear: "NO ONE has the right to deprive someone from his right to return." The Palestinian Authority certainly cannot. They can work towards making sure Palestinians are allowed to exercise their rights, but they cannot and will not pass a law or agree to any settlement that restricts it.

No one--which means the Palestinian Authority. In other words, it's impossible for the Palestinian Authority to negotiate anything that gives an inch on the right of return.

What remains to be negotiated is when and how Palestinians will be allowed to exercise that right. This is what he is referring to by "compensation and other details." Most of the physical property that originally belonged to the refugees no longer exist and cannot BE directly returned, so it's a question of what form their return and/or compensation would actually take. THAT needs to be worked out between the two governments in a long-term peace deal. Palestinian law has no restrictions on what kind of deal they reach, only that the deal has to uphold the rights of the refugees.

But you actually just showed that they can't negotiate it!

 

[arkirk]

There's nothing "weasely" about that statement: that's actually Abbas taking a harder line than usual about the right of return. In fact, in the context of the speech, alot of western media outlets were surprised by how inflexible this statement seemed; they almost universally interpreted as this as a provocative, confrontational statement towards Israel.

It's quite weasely--he's pretending it's something that can be negotiated but actually saying it isn't. You fell for it so you don't see the weaseling.

All he's actually saying is that individual Palestinians can choose not exercise it.

That is the exact OPPOSITE of what he's saying.

The statement is very clear: "NO ONE has the right to deprive someone from his right to return." The Palestinian Authority certainly cannot. They can work towards making sure Palestinians are allowed to exercise their rights, but they cannot and will not pass a law or agree to any settlement that restricts it.

No one--which means the Palestinian Authority. In other words, it's impossible for the Palestinian Authority to negotiate anything that gives an inch on the right of return.

What remains to be negotiated is when and how Palestinians will be allowed to exercise that right. This is what he is referring to by "compensation and other details." Most of the physical property that originally belonged to the refugees no longer exist and cannot BE directly returned, so it's a question of what form their return and/or compensation would actually take. THAT needs to be worked out between the two governments in a long-term peace deal. Palestinian law has no restrictions on what kind of deal they reach, only that the deal has to uphold the rights of the refugees.

But you actually just showed that they can't negotiate it!

I think Abbas had the right idea with the ICC. There is no doubt in my mind that Israel defense forces have committed numerous atrocities in the West Bank and Gaza. Not only is peace needed but also the kind of reparations to make Gaza whole and livable. More killing and more atrocities by IDF will only push the situation deeper into the land of insoluble. Nothing however will ever give Israel a free license to continue taking Palestinian land and killing Palestinians. These acts by Israel are crimes against humanity and should never be tolerated. It was in tolerating similar acts by Hitler that conditions in Europe deteriorated into WWII.

I do not believe that Israel with its current leadership is capable of making the concessions necessary to establish peace in Palestine. It can grossly escalate the murders of a lot more Palestinians. It needs an intervening authority to stop its predations. Netanyahu's formula for Israel is perpetual war. He is a big part of the problem. I defy you who always rail about Palestinian "terrorists" to provide the names of these terrorist leaders so we can think about them and consider how to overcome the obstacles to peace they represent. This entire taking by Israel will possibly eventually have to be run back. Israel could never do that or in any way accept that it was even slightly wrong when an IDF bulldozer ran down Rachel Corey. The heat will probably have to be turned down by outside forces. The problem is that Israel with its militarism and its murdering ways is totally surrounded by hostile forces, many of which were rendered hostile by Israeli actions in the area. That means the "outside forces" have to come from further away and be considered neutral. They also have to be superior to both the forces in the conflict. Fat chance of that! so the whole area just continues to fester. This is not good, especially because Israel is a rogue state with nuclear WMD.

 

[Alias2]

God Bless America and Israel. God Bless Mr Netanyahu. I wish he was my President.

 

[arkirk]

God Bless America and Israel. God Bless Mr Netanyahu. I wish he was my President.

So in other words, you are a racist?

 

[tupac chopra]

God Bless America and Israel. God Bless Mr Netanyahu. I wish he was my President.

I thought Netenyahu was President of the United States.

 

[Alias2]

God Bless America and Israel. God Bless Mr Netanyahu. I wish he was my President.

So in other words, you are a racist?

Yes, and you're a pusillanimous pissant prairie punk.

- - - Updated - - -

God Bless America and Israel. God Bless Mr Netanyahu. I wish he was my President.

I thought Netenyahu was President of the United States.

I wish. At least he knows who the real enemy is.

 

[laughing dog]

Each time Abbas, or any other Palestinian Arab makes a speech, there's a version meant for Western , [ Arab apologists ears]
another version meant for Arab ears.

Same thing is true with Bibi. So what?

 

[angelo]

Each time Abbas, or any other Palestinian Arab makes a speech, there's a version meant for Western , [ Arab apologists ears]
another version meant for Arab ears.

Same thing is true with Bibi. So what?

Wrong! Bibi comes from a fully democratic nation as compared to a terrorist who has to lie.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think Abbas had the right idea with the ICC. There is no doubt in my mind that Israel defense forces have committed numerous atrocities in the West Bank and Gaza. Not only is peace needed but also the kind of reparations to make Gaza whole and livable. More killing and more atrocities by IDF will only push the situation deeper into the land of insoluble. Nothing however will ever give Israel a free license to continue taking Palestinian land and killing Palestinians. These acts by Israel are crimes against humanity and should never be tolerated. It was in tolerating similar acts by Hitler that conditions in Europe deteriorated into WWII.

No possible reparations could make Gaza livable.

1) Hamas would take the money for their own purposes, just like they take most everything else coming into Gaza.
2) Gaza is a wreck because Hamas wants it that way. They used to have 3x the economy they do now--and threw it away on war.

I do not believe that Israel with its current leadership is capable of making the concessions necessary to establish peace in Palestine.

Of course they aren't--the only concessions that will bring peace is the extirpation of the Jews from the Middle East.

It can grossly escalate the murders of a lot more Palestinians. It needs an intervening authority to stop its predations. Netanyahu's formula for Israel is perpetual war.

No, that's Hamas' formula. Perpetual war, delude the gullible into thinking it's due to Israel.

He is a big part of the problem. I defy you who always rail about Palestinian "terrorists" to provide the names of these terrorist leaders so we can think about them and consider how to overcome the obstacles to peace they represent.

We aren't going to see such a list--in times of war Israel will be shooting at them. Of course they hide their identities as much as possible. A simple test, though--if Israel hits someone and the reaction is calls to avenge them rather than claiming they were civilians then they were reasonably high in the Hamas organization.

This entire taking by Israel will possibly eventually have to be run back. Israel could never do that or in any way accept that it was even slightly wrong when an IDF bulldozer ran down Rachel Corey. The heat will probably have to be turned down by outside forces. The problem is that Israel with its militarism and its murdering ways is totally surrounded by hostile forces, many of which were rendered hostile by Israeli actions in the area. That means the "outside forces" have to come from further away and be considered neutral. They also have to be superior to both the forces in the conflict. Fat chance of that! so the whole area just continues to fester. This is not good, especially because Israel is a rogue state with nuclear WMD.

1) There are no suitable forces--nobody's truly neutral.

2) Peacekeepers will not bring peace. They're just more Rachel Coreys--human shields for the terrorists. Peacekeepers will do nothing about Hamas attacks. Look at what has happened in Lebanon--the UN force there is supposed to keep Hezbollah from rearming. In practice that amounts to making sure they have a tarp over their rockets. No peacekeepers are actually going to do their job--set in amongst the terrorists that would amount to suicide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Each time Abbas, or any other Palestinian Arab makes a speech, there's a version meant for Western , [ Arab apologists ears]
another version meant for Arab ears.

Same thing is true with Bibi. So what?

Where are these alternate speeches?

MEMRI does report what the Palestinian leaders say for Arab ears.

 

[laughing dog]

Same thing is true with Bibi. So what?

Wrong! Bibi comes from a fully democratic nation as compared to a terrorist who has to lie.

That is unresponsive to what I wrote. Politicians from fully democratic nations often give different versions for different audiences. Bibi is not different in that respect.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There's nothing "weasely" about that statement: that's actually Abbas taking a harder line than usual about the right of return. In fact, in the context of the speech, alot of western media outlets were surprised by how inflexible this statement seemed; they almost universally interpreted as this as a provocative, confrontational statement towards Israel.

It's quite weasely--he's pretending it's something that can be negotiated but actually saying it isn't.

Implementation of the right of return IS negotiable. That Palestinians HAVE that right is not.

No one--which means the Palestinian Authority. In other words, it's impossible for the Palestinian Authority to negotiate anything that gives an inch on the right of return.

No. Simply put: it's impossible for the Palestinian Authority to agree to any settlement that doesn't recognize that right. HOW that right is fulfilled is subject to negotiation; that the right exists is not.

But you actually just showed that they can't negotiate it!

Of course they can. Abbas refers to this directly when he says "details need to be worked out." That's what's being negotiated: the details on "how."

The Right of Return is a right the Palestinians will not waive under any circumstances. That is NOT up for negotiation. But they're willing to accept various forms of compensation for that right. It's kind of like how the right to keep and bear arms in the Second Amendment does not automatically include anti-aircraft missiles and chemical weapons; "arms" is defined sufficiently loosely that the government can and does restrict MANY forms of weapons from private ownership.

 

[angelo]

Supposing Israel agreed to compensate Palestinians instead of allowing them back. What do you think the PA and Hamas would do with that money?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Supposing Israel agreed to compensate Palestinians instead of allowing them back. What do you think the PA and Hamas would do with that money?

The Palestinian Authority would distribute it to the refugees and their most immediate descendants.

Hamas would distribute it to those refugees currently on their payroll or affiliated with the party and then ever-so-slowly let the rest of the cash trickle out to the general population and then blame Israel for the delay.

 

[angelo]

Supposing Israel agreed to compensate Palestinians instead of allowing them back. What do you think the PA and Hamas would do with that money?

The Palestinian Authority would distribute it to the refugees and their most immediate descendants.

Hamas would distribute it to those refugees currently on their payroll or affiliated with the party and then ever-so-slowly let the rest of the cash trickle out to the general population and then blame Israel for the delay.

Yea, right, just like they distribute Western aid to the refugees now!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The Palestinian Authority would distribute it to the refugees and their most immediate descendants.

Hamas would distribute it to those refugees currently on their payroll or affiliated with the party and then ever-so-slowly let the rest of the cash trickle out to the general population and then blame Israel for the delay.

Yea, right, just like they distribute Western aid to the refugees now!

Yes. They do. STARTING with those refugees that just happen to be on their payroll and/or closely affiliated with the party. The rest being ever-so-slowly distributed to the rest of the population, with any delays generally being blamed on Israel.

Did you think I was kidding?

 

[iolo]

Same thing is true with Bibi. So what?

Wrong! Bibi comes from a fully democratic nation as compared to a terrorist who has to lie.

As democratic as the South African Nationalists were. Racist occupations are never democratic, man - they are evil and murderous and they lie all the time, as we see from zionist propaganda.