New evidence that strong unions reduce exploit inequality

[Loren Pechtel]

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

That is because their labor unions are usually not called labor unions, but "professional associations" and "Chambers of Commerce" and "corporate-executive search committees" and the like.

Those aren't unions. They don't negotiate working conditions, they don't negotiate wages.

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It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

Why does my husband's union job pay nearly 3 times what I earn?

I guess it was a very good question because I keep getting deflections rather than addressing it.

 

[bilby]

Why are so many of the lowest paying jobs non-union?

That's not a rebuttal.

If good wages come from unions why are most of the good jobs not union?

Showing that there are bad non-union jobs is not a rebuttal.

Most of the good jobs ARE union. Doctors and lawyers, for example, are the classic examples of 'good jobs', and both are heavily unionized, and have a strong emphasis on seniority, with new members having awful pay and conditions, while senior members are paid handsomely and treated like kings.

 

[lpetrich]

The poor worker benefits from being in a union where his inferiority won't be measured.

The good worker benefits from not being in a union so his ability will be recognized and rewarded. (This sometimes involves changing employers, but it does happen.)

Is it not obvious that in a marketplace with a mixture of union and non-union employers that the non-union employers will get the good workers?

Evidence presented: {}

 

[laughing dog]

Those aren't unions. They don't negotiate working conditions, they don't negotiate wages.

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It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

Why does my husband's union job pay nearly 3 times what I earn?

I guess it was a very good question because I keep getting deflections rather than addressing it.

It is more likely that it is a stupid question and people are trying to be kind.

 

[lpetrich]

US doctors, at least, try to restrict how many new ones there can be. It’s Doctors Who Control the Number of Doctors in America, Not the Government – Mother Jones

American doctors are paid far more than doctors anywhere else in the world, and yet we have fewer doctors per capita than nearly any other rich country. Why is that? One especially misguided tweeter suggested that this was, yet again, the fault of Big Gummint, which controls the number of residency slots for new medical schools grads, and therefore keeps the number of doctors low. There’s a certain kernel of truth to this, because the federal government subsidizes residency programs to the tune of $13 billion per year, just as the federal government controls Medicare reimbursement rates via a committee called the RUC. But that’s only half the story. Who controls RUC? Physicians do. They have a stranglehold on it. And who controls how many residency slots there are and what specialties they’re in? Again, physicians do.

So the number and composition of residencies is controlled by doctors, even as they’re subsidized by $13 billion in taxpayer money every year. And doctor pay, which almost everywhere is based on Medicare rates, is controlled by doctors. It’s doctors who are directly responsible for both their own high pay and their own low numbers.

All by abusing certification. I think that medical certification should be like drivers' licenses or pilots' licenses: a demonstration that one is competent to perform one's job. At least in the US, if one is not instrument rated, one is only permitted to fly under visual flight rules, where one can see where one is going. Instrument rated means having learned how to use flight instruments, so one can safely fly through clouds.

 

[DBT]

It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

For ordinary workers, as I specified? If so, can you give examplles?

 

[Toni]

Those aren't unions. They don't negotiate working conditions, they don't negotiate wages.

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It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

Why does my husband's union job pay nearly 3 times what I earn?

I guess it was a very good question because I keep getting deflections rather than addressing it.

Why don't you answer my very good question?

There are no deflections but there are multiple refutations. My post as a case in point.

By every measure one could possibly use, my husband's job is far superior than mine: higher status, much higher pay, much better work conditions. It's a union job. My job which is a good paying, good job by most measures will never pay close to what my husband earns, will never have the same status, despite the fact that I work for a pretty prestigious employer and frankly, my work conditions are rigid and sometimes unpleasant and from time to time, somewhat hazardous to dangerous. My job is not a union job.

Why don't our jobs follow with your assertion that the good jobs are not union jobs?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why are so many of the lowest paying jobs non-union?

That's not a rebuttal.

If good wages come from unions why are most of the good jobs not union?

Showing that there are bad non-union jobs is not a rebuttal.

Most of the good jobs ARE union. Doctors and lawyers, for example, are the classic examples of 'good jobs', and both are heavily unionized, and have a strong emphasis on seniority, with new members having awful pay and conditions, while senior members are paid handsomely and treated like kings.

I'm not aware of any union of either of these professions in the US.

Note that professional associations are not unions. My wife belongs to one--they discuss matters of interest to the profession and they arrange continuing education classes. They have no contact with anyone's employer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those aren't unions. They don't negotiate working conditions, they don't negotiate wages.

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Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

Why does my husband's union job pay nearly 3 times what I earn?

I guess it was a very good question because I keep getting deflections rather than addressing it.

Why don't you answer my very good question?

There are no deflections but there are multiple refutations. My post as a case in point.

By every measure one could possibly use, my husband's job is far superior than mine: higher status, much higher pay, much better work conditions. It's a union job. My job which is a good paying, good job by most measures will never pay close to what my husband earns, will never have the same status, despite the fact that I work for a pretty prestigious employer and frankly, my work conditions are rigid and sometimes unpleasant and from time to time, somewhat hazardous to dangerous. My job is not a union job.

Why don't our jobs follow with your assertion that the good jobs are not union jobs?

Nobody's refuted it.

The fact that your husband makes more than you do proves nothing because neither profession nor skill level was identified.

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It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

For ordinary workers, as I specified? If so, can you give examplles?

What is the "ordinary worker"?? You're trying to stack the deck by excluding the good non-union jobs.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Most of the good jobs ARE union. Doctors and lawyers, for example, are the classic examples of 'good jobs', and both are heavily unionized, and have a strong emphasis on seniority, with new members having awful pay and conditions, while senior members are paid handsomely and treated like kings.

I'm not aware of any union of either of these professions in the US.

Note that professional associations are not unions. My wife belongs to one--they discuss matters of interest to the profession and they arrange continuing education classes. They have no contact with anyone's employer.

LP wife mention...

TF Bingo!

 

[bilby]

Most of the good jobs ARE union. Doctors and lawyers, for example, are the classic examples of 'good jobs', and both are heavily unionized, and have a strong emphasis on seniority, with new members having awful pay and conditions, while senior members are paid handsomely and treated like kings.

I'm not aware of any union of either of these professions in the US.

Note that professional associations are not unions. My wife belongs to one--they discuss matters of interest to the profession and they arrange continuing education classes. They have no contact with anyone's employer.

Note that the assertion you make here is utter horse shit, and completely divorced from reality.

https://onlabor.org/bar-associations-are-much-more-like-unions-than-friedrichs-attorney-acknowledged/

https://www.aei.org/publication/american-medical-association-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/11/its-doctors-who-control-number-doctors-america-not-government/

"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands" - Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

 

[Toni]

Those aren't unions. They don't negotiate working conditions, they don't negotiate wages.

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Why does my husband's union job pay nearly 3 times what I earn?

I guess it was a very good question because I keep getting deflections rather than addressing it.

Why don't you answer my very good question?

There are no deflections but there are multiple refutations. My post as a case in point.

By every measure one could possibly use, my husband's job is far superior than mine: higher status, much higher pay, much better work conditions. It's a union job. My job which is a good paying, good job by most measures will never pay close to what my husband earns, will never have the same status, despite the fact that I work for a pretty prestigious employer and frankly, my work conditions are rigid and sometimes unpleasant and from time to time, somewhat hazardous to dangerous. My job is not a union job.

Why don't our jobs follow with your assertion that the good jobs are not union jobs?

Nobody's refuted it.

The fact that your husband makes more than you do proves nothing because neither profession nor skill level was identified.

I'm refuting it.


You said 'good jobs.' That all the 'good jobs are not union.'

Both my husband and I have 'good jobs.' His job is one of the very best in our area. Sure, he could earn more if he were a CEO of some companies or a physician in certain specialties. Outside of that, his job is really one of the very best paying jobs around, with the benefit that he is substantially in control of his day to day work life and schedule. His job is considerably better than mine with the higher status, much better work conditions, much higher pay.

My job is much less good than my husband's job yet I earn substantially more than the median household income for the US in 2018. People are actually impressed when I say where I work. People where I work are impressed by my husband's job. Which is a union job.

It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

For ordinary workers, as I specified? If so, can you give examplles?

What is the "ordinary worker"?? You're trying to stack the deck by excluding the good non-union jobs.

Please. He's asking for examples. You are faced with the fact that you made a blanket statement that does not hold up to even cursory examination. Just face it: You are wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

LP did not define "good jobs", so there is enough wiggle room for him to deny any example. LP is narrowly recognizing the notion of a union. Of course, he ignores the good paying jobs in professional teamn sports (at the top levels, all unionized) and most jobs in the movie industry. But anyone with experience in this forum should know by now - data, evidence and reason - play no role in the kneejerk ideological hatred of unions.

 

[arkirk]

Those aren't unions. They don't negotiate working conditions, they don't negotiate wages.

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It was unionism that improved pay and conditions for ordinary workers. It is in the best interest of ordinary workers to be in a union.

Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union?

Why does my husband's union job pay nearly 3 times what I earn?

I guess it was a very good question because I keep getting deflections rather than addressing it.

The highest paid jobs are anti union jobs for corporate officers whose jobs are usually to destroy the unions. You know this Loren. You are obviously one of them...a globe trotting bargain basement browsing cheap labor hunter.

 

[DBT]

What is the "ordinary worker"?? You're trying to stack the deck by excluding the good non-union jobs.

Ordinary workers are those who are not in managerial positions, who do not have exceptional, marketable skills that are in demand, with offers of high pay.

So can you give an example to support your remark - ''Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union'' - in relation to ordinary workers?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is the "ordinary worker"?? You're trying to stack the deck by excluding the good non-union jobs.

Ordinary workers are those who are not in managerial positions, who do not have exceptional, marketable skills that are in demand, with offers of high pay.

So can you give an example to support your remark - ''Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union'' - in relation to ordinary workers?

There's quite a range between your threshold and union jobs.

Simple test: If you need a college degree for the position you're most likely not in a union. That's a much lower bar than an exceptional skill, yet jobs requiring degrees tend to pay better than union jobs.

 

[DBT]

What is the "ordinary worker"?? You're trying to stack the deck by excluding the good non-union jobs.

Ordinary workers are those who are not in managerial positions, who do not have exceptional, marketable skills that are in demand, with offers of high pay.

So can you give an example to support your remark - ''Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union'' - in relation to ordinary workers?

There's quite a range between your threshold and union jobs.

Simple test: If you need a college degree for the position you're most likely not in a union. That's a much lower bar than an exceptional skill, yet jobs requiring degrees tend to pay better than union jobs.

Jobs requiring a degree are more in the line of a profession than a job. This is not an example of an average job.

 

[Toni]

What is the "ordinary worker"?? You're trying to stack the deck by excluding the good non-union jobs.

Ordinary workers are those who are not in managerial positions, who do not have exceptional, marketable skills that are in demand, with offers of high pay.

So can you give an example to support your remark - ''Why are almost all of the highest paying jobs non-union'' - in relation to ordinary workers?

There's quite a range between your threshold and union jobs.

Simple test: If you need a college degree for the position you're most likely not in a union. That's a much lower bar than an exceptional skill, yet jobs requiring degrees tend to pay better than union jobs.

Quite a number of my family, friends and acquaintances have degrees, including advanced degrees. And are in unionized jobs.

You seem to believe that only people who would work in say, a factory, are unionized. That's simply not true and is more a reflection of your ignorance of real facts about unions than reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's quite a range between your threshold and union jobs.

Simple test: If you need a college degree for the position you're most likely not in a union. That's a much lower bar than an exceptional skill, yet jobs requiring degrees tend to pay better than union jobs.

Jobs requiring a degree are more in the line of a profession than a job. This is not an example of an average job.

And you don't have jobs in your profession??

 

[Emily Lake]

It does explain how libertarians are not union friendly.

I suppose, if you use your imagination, you can come to that conclusion.

Does not take any imagination - permitting competing unions means the first union can be undercut or the employer can play them off each other. That is not union "friendly". Still waiting for you to show how libertarians are union friendly.

Dopes "union-friendly" mean the same as "monopoly-supporter"?