No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[TSwizzle]

that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

Disagree. While the circumstances were different. what happened to Lyoya happened to Philando. Both where seen as a threat and both were killed as a result.

I don't see the relevance of the Philando case but in any event, my objection was to the idea that white police officers are stopping black motorists and shooting them for no reason. That the police force consists of white officers acting as death squads or something. That is what is being suggested no? Because that is not what happened with Lyoya. Surely you see that and acknowledge that?

A quick skim through the Philando wiki, it looks like the police officer involved, Yanez was not white. Officer Yanez was tried for second degree manslaughter and acquitted/not guilty. But again, it's not relevant to the OP so I will leave it at that.

You have on this very thread people using language like assault, and attack when none of that is seen in the video. I wouldn't even consider what the officer was doing to apprehend him (before shooting Lyoya in the back of the head) assault or an attack. the officer didn't throw a single punch (at least not from what I saw) he didn't try to use a chokehold either. Up until shooting Lyoya in the back of the head, the officer wasn't a threat to Lyoya's life and Lyoya wasn't given a reason to think the officer was. Lyoya was drunk and had an evading arrest on his mind, not killing an officer. You can tell because he not once threw a punch, or tried to body slam the obviously outmatched officer. Lyoya had every opportunity to go from evasive to offensive actions. But did not. Yet, we have some people in this thread seeing a threat of deadly violence.

Maybe Lyoya was a threat at some time in the past
Maybe Lyoya would have been a threat in the future

But he damn sure wasn't a threat to the officer's life without using the officer's imagination (like in Philando's case).

Some very bad choices were made by Mr Lyoya that ended tragically. In my opinion, Mr Lyoya bears some responsibility for the outcome as does the officer of course but Mr Lyoya is not blameless in this tragic incident.

 

[TSwizzle]

Really? Like police officers never shoot someone they pull over through their car window. Cause off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of young black men who were killed under just those circumstances.

I am skeptical that police walk up to cars and choose to shoot people, black people even. That sounds more like a psychopath. And again, that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

Probably that is rare that they decide to shoot someone they pulled over, just because. But too often, police decide to shoot a black person because they perceive that person as a threat. For zero reason other than the person is black.

So police perceive only blacks (black young males I guess) as being a threat? I am skeptical of that claim also.

I don’t believe that this bias is conscious but it exists all the same. Most white men are not like the McMasters’ and most police officers are not like those who shot a child on a playground. But too many do hold unconscious bias that allows them to see dark skin and think : threat.

Possibly, maybe even likely. But I have no experience of working in the field so I don't know what it is like to do the job. I think some police officers (quite a lot actually) are assholes but most are not the murderous psychopaths that you paint them to be. Some are just dumb incompetents and there are probably a few racist nuggets in there too. But I have no reason to believe that is the case here with Lyoya.

 

[Toni]

Really? Like police officers never shoot someone they pull over through their car window. Cause off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of young black men who were killed under just those circumstances.

I am skeptical that police walk up to cars and choose to shoot people, black people even. That sounds more like a psychopath. And again, that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

Probably that is rare that they decide to shoot someone they pulled over, just because. But too often, police decide to shoot a black person because they perceive that person as a threat. For zero reason other than the person is black.

So police perceive only blacks (black young males I guess) as being a threat? I am skeptical of that claim also.

I don’t believe that this bias is conscious but it exists all the same. Most white men are not like the McMasters’ and most police officers are not like those who shot a child on a playground. But too many do hold unconscious bias that allows them to see dark skin and think : threat.

Possibly, maybe even likely. But I have no experience of working in the field so I don't know what it is like to do the job. I think some police officers (quite a lot actually) are assholes but most are not the murderous psychopaths that you paint them to be. Some are just dumb incompetents and there are probably a few racist nuggets in there too. But I have no reason to believe that is the case here with Lyoya.

I really don’t see holding police officers accountable for their actions abdcrecognizing that police officers are as inclined as anyone else to lie or to tell a version of the truth that favors them is calling them murderous psychopaths. Those are your words, not mine, nor do they reflect my beliefs.

 

[TSwizzle]

I really don’t see holding police officers accountable for their actions abdcrecognizing that police officers are as inclined as anyone else to lie or to tell a version of the truth that favors them is calling them murderous psychopaths. Those are your words, not mine, nor do they reflect my beliefs.

Earlier you said that police pull over black motorists and shoot them through the window and I did say that sounds more like a psychopath so yes those are my words. But that is the way you portray the police, that they are murderous psychopaths out to kill black motorists for no reason other than they are black. You say that does not reflect your beliefs but when you frame things the way you do, it certainly seems like you do think all cops (or maybe just the white cops?) are gunning for the blacks. And I agree, the police should be held accountable for their actions. I think this incident is a terrible tragedy and could have been avoided but Mr Lyoya is not blameless in this.

 

[Toni]

I really don’t see holding police officers accountable for their actions abdcrecognizing that police officers are as inclined as anyone else to lie or to tell a version of the truth that favors them is calling them murderous psychopaths. Those are your words, not mine, nor do they reflect my beliefs.

Earlier you said that police pull over black motorists and shoot them through the window and I did say that sounds more like a psychopath so yes those are my words. But that is the way you portray the police, that they are murderous psychopaths out to kill black motorists for no reason other than they are black. You say that does not reflect your beliefs but when you frame things the way you do, it certainly seems like you do think all cops (or maybe just the white cops?) are gunning for the blacks. And I agree, the police should be held accountable for their actions. I think this incident is a terrible tragedy and could have been avoided but Mr Lyoya is not blameless in this.

And I believe you seem extremely defensive and extremely willing to attribute opinions to me that are not actually mine. In fact, it is quite possible to be supportive of law enforcement without turning a blind eye to the fact that police officer vets are drawn from the human race and are as flawed as anyone else. They also serve in high pressure positions and are often expected to take on roles they are not trained for. In compensation, they are provided, in some localities, with excessive paramilitary equipment as though they are an occupying force, rather than peace officers abs servants of the people,

 

[TSwizzle]

And I believe you seem extremely defensive and extremely willing to attribute opinions to me that are not actually mine.

Not so much your opinion but your attitude toward police is very negative, you make statements that police execute black people, that any black person's life is at substantial risk by being in the presence of a police officer. I don't think that is true, particularly in this case with Lyoya.

 

[Toni]

And I believe you seem extremely defensive and extremely willing to attribute opinions to me that are not actually mine.

Not so much your opinion but your attitude toward police is very negative, you make statements that police execute black people, that any black person's life is at substantial risk by being in the presence of a police officer. I don't think that is true, particularly in this case with Lyoya.

I fortunately, statistics are on my side.

Beginning in infancy, black children are regarded as being stronger, more impervious to pain, less vulnerable compared with their white peers. From toddlerhood/preschool onward, daycare and teachers are more likely to be punished and punished more harshly than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. This pattern only escalates as the children grow older, throughout their school years and beyond. They are regarded as less intelligent, which in schools these days means less compliant and any small offense is seen as a larger offense than with a white child.

As I’ve written many times before, I grew up in an entirely white school system after the first grade. I saw plenty of smart kids made to feel stupid by teachers with no appreciation for independence or anything other than immediate and silent compliance. I was lucky: my older sibling was an excellent student so I was assumed to be similarly endowed—I am very well aware how much the benefit of a doubt can work for or against you, especially a child in school. I saw too many kids treated unfairly and how that worked against them.

It is not difficult to see how treating some students as less intelligent and capable but as more mature and stronger and more impervious to pain can be very much a self-fulfilling prophesy. Numerous studies support this and have done for decades.

Of course this plays out after school in the community at large. Black kids, especially boys, are more likely to be seen as dangerous and criminal and violent simply because of the color of their skins. And it only escalates in adulthood.

 

[TSwizzle]

And I believe you seem extremely defensive and extremely willing to attribute opinions to me that are not actually mine.

Not so much your opinion but your attitude toward police is very negative, you make statements that police execute black people, that any black person's life is at substantial risk by being in the presence of a police officer. I don't think that is true, particularly in this case with Lyoya.

I fortunately, statistics are on my side.

Statistics for what? That cops execute black motorists? What are the statistics for that? That black people's lives are at risk in the vicinity of a police officer? I don't see how that would be measurable. Lyoya was not stopped and "executed" by a white cop because he was black, you understand that yeah? Lyoya is not blameless in this tragedy.


{snipped irrelevant portion}

 

[Toni]

And I believe you seem extremely defensive and extremely willing to attribute opinions to me that are not actually mine.

Not so much your opinion but your attitude toward police is very negative, you make statements that police execute black people, that any black person's life is at substantial risk by being in the presence of a police officer. I don't think that is true, particularly in this case with Lyoya.

I fortunately, statistics are on my side.

Statistics for what? That cops execute black motorists? What are the statistics for that? That black people's lives are at risk in the vicinity of a police officer? I don't see how that would be measurable. Lyoya was not stopped and "executed" by a white cop because he was black, you understand that yeah? Lyoya is not blameless in this tragedy.


{snipped irrelevant portion}

Plenty of stats on disparities with disparities on perceptions of blacks vs whites from infancy onward. Plenty of stars on the disparities in convictions and sentences received for similar offenses between black and white.

 

[Elixir]

And I believe you seem extremely defensive and extremely willing to attribute opinions to me that are not actually mine.

Not so much your opinion but your attitude toward police is very negative, you make statements that police execute black people, that any black person's life is at substantial risk by being in the presence of a police officer. I don't think that is true, particularly in this case with Lyoya.

I fortunately, statistics are on my side.

Statistics for what? That cops execute black motorists? What are the statistics for that? That black people's lives are at risk in the vicinity of a police officer? I don't see how that would be measurable. Lyoya was not stopped and "executed" by a white cop because he was black, you understand that yeah? Lyoya is not blameless in this tragedy.


{snipped irrelevant portion}

Plenty of stats on disparities with disparities on perceptions of blacks vs whites from infancy onward. Plenty of stars on the disparities in convictions and sentences received for similar offenses between black and white.

That’s justice. Blacks commit more crimes, and as long as that’s true, we need to keep more of them in jail for longer. Simple lodjick. If they refuse to commit any more crimes, we know how to change their minds, so the solution is obvious. Five years for accidentally voting when sent a ballot in Texas, no problem. Lock em up where they can’t breed. Find one driving drunk? Pin him down and shoot him in the back of the head. Selling single cigarettes? No matter what, there’s a way to administer justice without waiting for some lib’rul judge to let them back out where they can do property damage and stuff. Hey, if you have backup and crowd control, you don’t even have to pull your service piece - just kneel on their neck until they stop thinking about resisting (ever again).
Justice.

 

[TomC]

That’s justice. Blacks commit more crimes, and as long as that’s true, we need to keep more of them in jail for longer. Simple lodjick. If they refuse to commit any more crimes, we know how to change their minds, so the solution is obvious. Five years for accidentally voting when sent a ballot in Texas, no problem. Lock em up where they can’t breed. Find one driving drunk? Pin him down and shoot him in the back of the head. Selling single cigarettes? No matter what, there’s a way to administer justice without waiting for some lib’rul judge to let them back out where they can do property damage and stuff. Hey, if you have backup and crowd control, you don’t even have to pull your service piece - just kneel on their neck until they stop thinking about resisting (ever again).
Justice.

There, in a nutshell, is why I find myself anti-Woke.

 

[ZiprHead]

Some very bad choices were made by Mr Lyoya that ended tragically. In my opinion, Mr Lyoya bears some responsibility for the outcome as does the officer of course but Mr Lyoya is not blameless in this tragic incident.

Who said he was???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not specifically to Lyoya, but generally, if a perp is armed with a firearm and running away, he or she can easily shoot back at you over the shoulder. It will not be a well-aimed shot, of course, but it will still be a threat to you (a wild shot, if it hits, is as deadly as an well-aimed one) or innocent bystanders....

A shot that is not aimed at you is not a threat to you. Duh.

More importantly, in the context of the discussion, Mr. Lyoya was not armed with a firearm.

Reality check: You can be killed by a poorly aimed round. And there's no proportionality once the deadly force threshold has been crossed--you can respond to poorly aimed light caliber rounds with very accurately aimed heavy caliber rounds.

And in this scenario it appears he was armed with at a minimum a stun gun--which he could use to take the officer's firearm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Demonizing and defunding the police isn't going to make anything better, quite the contrary.

Trouble is, being critical of police shootings is viewed as "demonizing" the police these days. Any talk of oversight is responded to with anger. We have no fair legal system in place to police the police.

What's seen as demonizing police is the reflexive position that if the victim is black and wasn't actually shooting at the cops that it must have been wrongful.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not his violence. It is very very very hard to call it self defend when it involves shooting someone in the back of the head at point blank range when you are on top of him, and he’s face down and unarmed.

You're being deliberately blind here--the taser. You can't say "unarmed".

The police officer, whose body camera was somehow turned off, said he had or was trying to grab the taser. That may be true. There is no actual evidence Loyoya had a taser when he was shot, aside from the officer saying so on audio just before he shot him point blank in the back of the head.

I would MUCH prefer to believe that it was a justified shooting. I truly would.

Unfortunately there are too many cases of police officers lying to justify their actions.

There is no question there was a struggle over the taser. At one point it's clearly not in the officer's control--probably not in Lyoya's control either but it was not in a position where the officer could see that. Lost control of the taser = substantial risk it will be used to take his gun and kill him. And you have been constantly fishing for reasons it's unjustified--that doesn't sound like you want to believe it's justified.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm inclined to believe Lyoya was still holding onto the taser. I take issue with the opinion that he was going to use the taser. And also the opinion that he attacked and assaulted the officer. It takes prejudice to construe fighting and assaulting with Lyoya's attempts to evade and resist.

Edit: And if they can't acknowledge that during the investigation then I'm not sure what kind of investigation it is.

The thing is his only route of escape is to use the taser to take the officer's gun. That's why the concern that he will do just that. This is a guy in a panic about going to jail, people in such a situation often do things that in hindsight are horrible choices.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Killing of Philando Castile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The officer panicked about the fact he was armed. This isn't just about being pulled over.

 

[laughing dog]

And in this scenario it appears he was armed with at a minimum a stun gun--which he could use to take the officer's firearm.

Reality check: there is no footage of Mr Lyoya with the stun gun. You conflate your conjecture about shat could have happened with reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not his violence. It is very very very hard to call it self defend when it involves shooting someone in the back of the head at point blank range when you are on top of him, and he’s face down and unarmed.

You're being deliberately blind here--the taser. You can't say "unarmed".

Whose taser was it?

You don't get to supply weapons to suspects, and then kill them 'because they are armed'.

A police officer who cannot prevent a suspect from taking his weapons shouldn't have those weapons.

Continuing to make an unreasonable assertion doesn't make it true. In the real world it's impossible to avoid all disarms at close range.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or I think more likely, "escalation" during an encounter is more likely due to their initial perception and bias of the person. Smaller things are perceived as more significant things. Starting out at Fight or Flight is not a good way to ensure a safe encounter. That is what allows senses of slight and then anger to enter into an officer's judgment. No one is shooting a man in the back of the head without anger.

This isn't a duel, it isn't a matter of honor. Where the round hits is only relevant towards figuring out a person's actions--a hit from behind typically means they were running away. It doesn't always mean that, however, and in this case most certainly doesn't because it would be impossible for him to have moved in that direction. It means the officer had a positional advantage, but if Loyla gets the taser there's no guarantee that advantage can protect him.