Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[barbos]

It never crosses you mind that you are being lied to?
They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov.

Barbos, this is the testimony of observers on location regarding the moving of bodies from the crash site (as well as the removal of items from the crash site) :

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

Donetsk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Nobody knows how many bodies from the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash have been moved, where they were taken or exactly who moved them, the spokesman for a group of international observers told CNN on Saturday.
Michael Bociurkiw of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe told "Erin Burnett OutFront" the group went to the crash site in a remote section of eastern Ukraine on Saturday and saw men moving an unknown number of body bags.
It's hard to get reliable information because several groups of pro-Russian separatists -- some of them masked -- control the area, he said. "But there doesn't seem to be one commander in charge."

The above coming from the team of international observers ON LOCATION.


Where do you get this information from?

They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov

Further, are this "they" part of an officially designated team of forensic experts and investigators specialized in collecting and analyzing plane debris on a crash site?

Further why a persistent limitation to how much time this international team of monitors from the OSCE (as well as access) can spend, limitation imposed by the Separatists on location?

You do realize that war is going on there?
Do you honestly expect search to resemble training exercise?
What has been reported so far is what I said previously - they finished collecting bodies and sending them to Kharkov by train.

 

[barbos]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs2NS0aCAAA1YQN.jpg
I see a bigfoot.

Seriously, without original high resolution picture this looks like possible photoshop.
Again, I do believe rebels had or have Buk. It's just proof is lacking.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Barbos, this is the testimony of observers on location regarding the moving of bodies from the crash site (as well as the removal of items from the crash site) :

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

Donetsk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Nobody knows how many bodies from the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash have been moved, where they were taken or exactly who moved them, the spokesman for a group of international observers told CNN on Saturday.
Michael Bociurkiw of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe told "Erin Burnett OutFront" the group went to the crash site in a remote section of eastern Ukraine on Saturday and saw men moving an unknown number of body bags.
It's hard to get reliable information because several groups of pro-Russian separatists -- some of them masked -- control the area, he said. "But there doesn't seem to be one commander in charge."

The above coming from the team of international observers ON LOCATION.


Where do you get this information from?

They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov

Further, are this "they" part of an officially designated team of forensic experts and investigators specialized in collecting and analyzing plane debris on a crash site?

Further why a persistent limitation to how much time this international team of monitors from the OSCE (as well as access) can spend, limitation imposed by the Separatists on location?

You do realize that there is war there?

What I realize is that the Separatists on location are obstructing a legal process of allowing (again) an officially designated international team of forensic experts and specialized investigators while the same Separatists are handling bodies and items from the crash without such official designation and expertise. They are tampering with what is defined as a crime scene. Again, where did you get this information :

They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov

that "there is a war there" in NO way justifies such tampering and committed by folks who are in NO way forensic experts and investigators specialized in collecting and analyzing plane debris resulting from a crash.

Still waiting for you to reveal where you got your information worded by you as "They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov".

Do you honestly expect search to resemble training exercise?

????? How is my describing what has been a constant in the history of plane crashes investigations a matter of "training exercise"?

What has been reported so far is what I said previously - they finished collecting bodies and sending them to Kharkov by train.

Who, what , where and when such claim was made. What I provided you with is a report dated from Sunday July 20th with the quoted comments of members of the OSCE monitoring team ,based on their direct observation ON LOCATION.

And please, spare me from a reply accusing those OSCE monitors of lying. As far as I am concerned, accusations of X group lying without evidence to back it up hold no water.

 

[barbos]

Barbos, this is the testimony of observers on location regarding the moving of bodies from the crash site (as well as the removal of items from the crash site) :

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

Donetsk, Ukraine (CNN) -- Nobody knows how many bodies from the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash have been moved, where they were taken or exactly who moved them, the spokesman for a group of international observers told CNN on Saturday.
Michael Bociurkiw of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe told "Erin Burnett OutFront" the group went to the crash site in a remote section of eastern Ukraine on Saturday and saw men moving an unknown number of body bags.
It's hard to get reliable information because several groups of pro-Russian separatists -- some of them masked -- control the area, he said. "But there doesn't seem to be one commander in charge."

The above coming from the team of international observers ON LOCATION.


Where do you get this information from?

They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov

Further, are this "they" part of an officially designated team of forensic experts and investigators specialized in collecting and analyzing plane debris on a crash site?

Further why a persistent limitation to how much time this international team of monitors from the OSCE (as well as access) can spend, limitation imposed by the Separatists on location?

You do realize that there is war there?

What I realize is that the Separatists on location are obstructing a legal process of allowing (again) an officially designated international team of forensic experts and specialized investigators while the same Separatists are handling bodies and items from the crash without such official designation and expertise. They are tampering with what is defined as a crime scene. Again, where did you get this information :

How can you distinguish between obstructing and being cautious about people running around while fucking ukrainian army is still shooting?

They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov

that "there is a war there" in NO way justifies such tampering and committed by folks who are in NO way forensic experts and investigators specialized in collecting and analyzing plane debris resulting from a crash.

Nobody is tampering with anything now.

Still waiting for you to reveal where you got your information worded by you as "They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov".

Ukrainians started to call rebels "terrorists" the next day after visit of your CIA director to the Ukraine.

Do you honestly expect search to resemble training exercise?

????? How is my describing what has been a constant in the history of plane crashes investigations a matter of "training exercise"?

What has been reported so far is what I said previously - they finished collecting bodies and sending them to Kharkov by train.

Who, what , where and when such claim was made. What I provided you with is a report dated from Sunday July 20th with the quoted comments of members of the OSCE monitoring team ,based on their direct observation ON LOCATION.

And please, spare me from a reply accusing those OSCE monitors of lying. As far as I am concerned, accusations of X group lying without evidence to back it up hold no water.

No, they are not lying, just a bit stressed.

 

[laruan]

two pack is that 4 short of a six pack

 

[Sabine Grant]

How can you distinguish between obstructing and being cautious about people running around while fucking ukrainian army is still shooting?

So far the only incident of "shooting" had been reported by the same OSCE monitors while they were on location and shots were fired in the air by Separatists. Ukraine would have no reason to endanger the lives and safety of an international and officially designated team of forensic experts and investigators specialized in the collection and analysis of plane debris. Why are you so liberally assuming that the Ukrainian army would fire any projectile or shoot at those experts while they are doing their job on location?

that "there is a war there" in NO way justifies tampering and committed by folks who are in NO way forensic experts and investigators specialized in collecting and analyzing plane debris resulting from a crash.

Nobody is tampering with anything now.

A claim that "nobody is tampering with anything now" does NOT eliminate the reality that they have been tampering with it from day one. Once tampered with, the scene is "contaminated" and can only make investigative and forensic efforts more difficult.Anything removed, handled is now compromised. And those removals and handling of the scene by those Separatist have been defined by a high number of experts in the field of plane crash investigations as tampering. Mind you they are experts in that field and you are obviously not. And do not reply with accusing them of lying or now them "just being a a bit stress" about an ongoing situation which defies the protocols set in place to conduct a thorough forensic and investigative process concerning any plane crash debris.

Still waiting for you to reveal where you got your information worded by you as "They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov".

Ukrainians started to call rebels "terrorists" the next day after visit of your CIA director to the Ukraine.

Where, who, what, when did you get this specific information :"finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov". You then added the detail later that the bodies were transported by train. The report I linked you to and again quoting comments from members of the OSCE team of monitors and ON LOCATION contradicts your claim. What is your support for your claim quoted now several times? As to "your CIA director". Why are you assuming that every member on this board is a US citizen? It is not "my CIA". The CIA is not part of the intel agencies under the control of my own government in my own country of origin and citizenship, France.

What has been reported so far is what I said previously - they finished collecting bodies and sending them to Kharkov by train.

Who, what , where and when such claim was made. What I provided you with is a report dated from Sunday July 20th with the quoted comments of members of the OSCE monitoring team ,based on their direct observation ON LOCATION.

And please, spare me from a reply accusing those OSCE monitors of lying. As far as I am concerned, accusations of X group lying without evidence to back it up hold no water.

No, they are not lying, just a bit stressed.

The "who, what, where, when" regarding your now quoted several times claim is still not addressed. As to your reply "just a bit stressed"....I can only respond to such nonsense with

 

[barbos]

Who =Russian news
When=recently
Where=in russian news outlets

Nonsense is what you are being fed by Western news media.

 

[barbos]

In other news:
Brazilian soccer player was drafted into ukrainian army.
Ukrainian soldiers wounded in the war in eastern Ukraine are being treated in russian (!) hospital across the border

 

[dystopian]

geolocate? LOL, you really serious, aren't you?

Yes, do you even know what that means? It's not that hard; just line up the buildings and landmarks in a video or photograph with a map; this is trivially easy to do especially by someone who knows the area. The location of the videos/photos I mentioned has been firmly established within rebel territory. As I predicted, you completely ignored this fact.

Yes I am parroting Russian Media, I have never been to Krasnoarmeisk, but I see no point in lying about it being forged.

Of course you don't; in your twisted reality it makes sense that the ukrainians are engaged in a conspiracy where they can somehow magically fool the world with forgeries; whereas the much more likely scenario that the rebels fucked up is unthinkable!

It never crosses you mind that you are being lied to?

Unlike you, I actually look at different sources before I form my opinion; and don't just accept what my chosen news outlet tells me. The immense irony of you asking whether I've considered whether I'm being lied to when you do nothing more than parrot Russian state media is staggering.

They (what you call terrorists) finished with a search and sending bodies to Kharkov.

I never once called them terrorists. And color me unimpressed with them FINALLY sending us the bodies; after all the obstruction they've thrown in our path. The way they've handled the whole "search" and handling of the bodies is appalling.

You do realize that war is going on there?

Then why the fuck are you asking about why the Ukrainian radar was turned on as if that was some sort of evidence of foul play on their part and as if it's a conspiracy angle we all have to take seriously? So when the rebels shoot down a plane and then start cocking up the crash site and obstructing international experts sent to do an objective investigation, that's not suspicious that's just because it's a war zone! However, when the Ukrainian military has the radar of its military units active, the fact that there's a war going on is completely irrelevant and they're obviously hiding something. How stupid do you think we are? Ain't nobody falling for your amateur attempts at obfuscation.

Who =Russian news
When=recently
Where=in russian news outlets

Nonsense is what you are being fed by Western news media.

That's it. You can't be taken seriously anymore.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Who =Russian news
When=recently
Where=in russian news outlets

Do you have the mean to confirm the authenticity of the claim you kept rehashing which you now claim to be sourced from "russian news" in "russian news outlet".

Nonsense is what you are being fed by Western news media.

Do you have any evidence to support any assumption that the article I linked to while quoting specific comments made by members of the OSCE monitors based on their observations on location is "nonsense fed by the Western media". Do you realize that CNN did have footage of the interview of those members and they were directly communicating their observations.

So, unless you will now claim that these OSCE monitors were lying about their observations (which again contradict the claims made by your alleged russian sources), what is your explanation? I directly saw and listened to those interviews mentioned in the article I submitted.

I am also getting tired of your tirades regarding the "Western news media" since I doubt that you are so fluent in all the foreign languages represented within Western nations that you actually can comprehend all the discussions and opinions held in televised debates/interviews in all those Western nations.

Try to address the specific of whether the observations of the OSCE monitors can be trusted without your usual mantra of "being fed by the Western news media".

 

[dystopian]

I am also getting tired of your tirades regarding the "Western news media" since I doubt that you are so fluent in all the foreign languages represented within Western nations that you actually can comprehend all the discussions and opinions held in televised debates/interviews in all those Western nations.

Try to address the specific of whether the observations of the OSCE monitors can be trusted without your usual mantra of "being fed by the Western news media".

Russian media is one of the least free in the world; most of it is state-owned, independent media is routinely silenced or pressured, and the number of journalists killed for the work they do without consequences for the murder puts it among the very top of the most dangerous countries for journalists in the world with only Iraq and Algeria more dangerous. The media in Russia is essentially the Russian version of Fox News, bolstered by the fact it has no competition. It's little wonder then that the people who make Russian media their primary source of news, like Barbos, are going to act like this.

It's actually putting Putin into a tough situation (though that's mostly his own fault); he can't afford to back down and properly cooperate with the west because to do so would be a complete break with the narrative the Russians have been spoonfeeding their public; and it'd piss off the nationalists responsible for his surge in popularity and completely shatter his credibility. It's like if in an alternate reality, the republicans were in the presidency and were only there because they owned most of the media and had been using that ownership to promote the most radical elements of teaparty; only to find out that having your base be made up by hordes of semi-psychotic ultranationalists who've swallowed the lies you've told them about the country's supposed exceptionalism could turn out to be a problem when you're stuck in an international crisis that requires you to not act like a bond villain.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

yes, this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqExJUI-io
It is 100% forgery. Basically they took their own Buk and made a video of it.
Probably CIA people suggested it, the same ones who forged evidence of WMD in Iraq and russian forces near Ukrainian border.

geolocate? LOL, you really serious, aren't you?

There's a Google Maps based game whose URL I've lost. It opens up Google Maps in street view mode--and that's *ALL* you see. No coordinates, no other views. The objective of the game is to look around and then click the world map indicating where you were. Some of the high scores must have gotten every one almost spot on.

Note that that's just with plain old eyeballs. If you compare the unknown images with known images you can do far better.

 

[bilby]

https://geoguessr.com/

It is more fun than it used to be; the first time I played, only North America, Australia, Brazil and the UK were included, but now it is much broader - and includes large parts of Russia.

 

[tupac chopra]

No. You go in there. You think war is such fun.
You think soldiers find it's fun to go and fight? Have you ever had to do it? Have you ever been in a warzone?
We will give you a gun and a uniform, and a dummy.

So, explain us something.
Why is it so reprehensible when dystopian merely hint at it, while you're fighting tooth and nails for Putin's right to do it on a grand scale?

Please provide evidence of me doing that.

 

[tupac chopra]

Well, russians say 9 Ukrainian Buk radars were turned ON at the time of the disaster in the area.
and one SU-25 was within 4 km from the B777 during hit.
Maybe there is a good explanation for radar activity, I don't know.

Yes the Russians are are producing some kind of evidence. That evidence can now be examined. Kiev and the USA are producing none except that ridiculous fake youtube video.

I think that the Russians are letting Kiev and the USA (and obsequious allies) hang themselves. they have condemned those responsible in the strongest terms. Will they still do that if it becomes obvious Kiev is responsible?

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda.

 

[tupac chopra]

Have any of the people posting here who claim that the rebels shot the plane down got any evidence at all?

 

[bilby]

Have any of the people posting here who claim that the rebels shot the plane down got any evidence at all?

Have you?

I am sure you are not stupid enough to think that an article on zerohedge.com is the same thing as 'evidence'.

I don't claim that the rebels shot down the plane; there are three suspect groups, and they are the most plausible of the three, but it is far too early to be certain. Which makes me wonder why so many here are so sure that their favourite side in this conflict didn't do it.

Could it be that you are all more interested in playing stupid political games than in finding the perpetrators and bringing them to justice for the crime of 298 counts of manslaughter? Because that would be truly vile and disgusting behaviour.

 

[tupac chopra]

The circumstantial evidence pointing to Kievs involvement is growing by the day.

1. An apparently faked youtube video.
2. Fake photos purporting to be a BUK launcher in rebel held territory.
3. Eyewitness reports of Military jets near or accompanying the doomed airliner.
4. Video shots of these planes from the Rostov military centre so the Russians claim.
5. Photos of the Ukranians deploying BUK launchers in South eastern Ukraine.

The Russians are starting to release this evidence, into the public eye where it can be examined.

On the the hand, the USA is claiming to have evidence yet is releasing none. They are liars IMO.
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"

 

[bilby]

The circumstantial evidence pointing to Kievs involvement is growing by the day.

1. An apparently faked youtube video.
2. Fake photos purporting to be a BUK launcher in rebel held territory.
3. Eyewitness reports of Military jets near or accompanying the doomed airliner.
4. Video shots of these planes from the Rostov military centre so the Russians claim.
5. Photos of the Ukranians deploying BUK launchers in South eastern Ukraine.

The Russians are starting to release this evidence, into the public eye where it can be examined.

On the the hand, the USA is claiming to have evidence yet is releasing none. They are liars IMO.
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"

So that's a 'No' then.

You have a stack of unreliable bullshit that supports your position; and dismiss as unreliable bullshit a stack of unreliable bullshit that does not support your position.

The entire question of guilt is being decided in your own head, by careful cherry-picking of what qualifies as evidence - essentially, your entire case rests on your initial decision to believe the Russians, and to disbelieve the Americans.

You might be right; but if you are, it is good luck, not good judgement.

Both sides are lying liars who lie. Almost nothing that has been presented as "evidence" is trustworthy. And yet, somehow, by magic, you know who is responsible.

 

[tupac chopra]

You might be right;

Yes I think I am. It's pretty obvious when the fake "evidence" against the rebels is debunked so quickly.
Pretty clear that the US is hiding something too, and Kiev