Now #BLMers are rioting in Minneapolis after black murderer kills himself

[Derec]

Tell that to the family of Tamir Rice or Philandro Castile.

Tell them what exactly? The incidents of unreasonable force are uncommon, even if you can come up with examples. And note that Tamir Rice was a concatenation of errors beginning with the realistic looking replica Tamir was playing with was adulterated to resemble a real firearm even more.

Tell that to Brionna Taylor's family.

Brionna Taylor was an innocent victim, sure. But if you were a police officer and somebody fired upon you, would you not return fire?
I think the officer who got the warrant under false pretenses [if that turns out to be true] should be charged with crimes, but I do not think the officers who merely returned fire when Taylor's boyfriend was shooting at them committed any crimes.

None of this justifies looting stores and Vietnamese restaurants though.

 

[laughing dog]

Tell that to the family of Tamir Rice or Philandro Castile.

Tell them what exactly? The incidents of unreasonable force are uncommon, even if you can come up with examples. And note that Tamir Rice was a concatenation of errors beginning with the realistic looking replica Tamir was playing with was adulterated to resemble a real firearm even more.

Tamir Rice was not engaged in criminal activity. A well-functioning social compact would nit allow those officers off.

Brionna Taylor was an innocent victim, sure. But if you were a police officer and somebody fired upon you, would you not return fire?

Ms. Taylor did not fire at anyone.

I think the officer who got the warrant under false pretenses [if that turns out to be true] should be charged with crimes, but I do not think the officers who merely returned fire when Taylor's boyfriend was shooting at them committed any crimes.

Ms Taylor is dead - how is that the result if a well-functioning social compact.

None of this justifies looting stores and Vietnamese restaurants though.

Never said it did.

 

[Shadowy Man]

But US has free public schools K-12.

And yet the structural methods for how those schools get resources is skewed towards the already wealthy.

If education is supposed to be the great equalizer then shouldn’t all students get an equal chance?

 

[Testy Calibrate]

It's not desperate need driving them. It's the refusal to follow the social compact because it stopped mattering once the cops broke it, thinking as you appear to that the country is and should be ruled by fear. Because fuck you is an entirely valid incentive to act.

While we do have some bad cops the social compact hasn't been broken. Substantial wrongdoing by the police almost always involves criminals, not the law abiding.

So, what you are saying is that people who are law abiding matter and people who aren't, don't. Is that right? I just want to get this part straight before we get into a discussion about the criminal justice system.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

WTF? Criminals are persons and persons are part of society. Being suspected of criminal activity (or having engaged in criminal acts in the past) does not exclude someone from the social compact.

The point is that if you're not a criminal you have little to fear from the police beyond harassment. The incidents of unreasonable force are not at all common.

Where the problem lies is the casual use of excessive force against those who are already on the wrong side of the law. For example, George Floyd. It's pretty obvious they were trying to inflict some pain and they didn't realize what could happen.

And yet, criminal is an entirely social construction. This is such a deeply fucked up way of not hearing. What you are missing imo is that as soon as you make an unjust law, you suddenly have a whole bunch of criminals. The system takes their future. They have no more obligation to the social contract. Eventually, the number of those who have no obligation gets large enough that they riot and Break shit and then people spouting the line that you spout confirm their realization. The cops are what you rely on to keep the disenfranchised out of your house. Just don't think that your argument means anything to those who are disenfranchised. They have been preyed upon and you create the relationship of mutual predation. Cops are just your team.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Sure, some jobs pay little. But US has free public schools K-12. We also have affordable technical and community colleges, and all kinds of grants, scholarships and subsidized loans for post-secondary education. Even if you are born into a disadvantaged household, you can work on bettering yourself.


US has been giving a lot of handouts. What are you babbling about?

based on other countries with most robust social programs, there's no evidence it's a bad thing, so with zero evidence for your argument and multiple points of evidence against your argument, your assertion is utterly without merit.

Depends on the program and the implementation. It's not like high-tax, generous-programs European countries are carefree utopias either you know.

the system is designed to have an underclass. You just want a way to justify what is structurally inherent.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Tell that to the family of Tamir Rice or Philandro Castile.

Tell them what exactly? The incidents of unreasonable force are uncommon, even if you can come up with examples. And note that Tamir Rice was a concatenation of errors beginning with the realistic looking replica Tamir was playing with was adulterated to resemble a real firearm even more.

Tell that to Brionna Taylor's family.

Brionna Taylor was an innocent victim, sure. But if you were a police officer and somebody fired upon you, would you not return fire?
I think the officer who got the warrant under false pretenses [if that turns out to be true] should be charged with crimes, but I do not think the officers who merely returned fire when Taylor's boyfriend was shooting at them committed any crimes.

None of this justifies looting stores and Vietnamese restaurants though.

I disagree

 

[Swammerdami]

Why are you making excuses for bad behavior? Is it your view that some people should be treated as infantile children, lacking agency, incapable of acting to the standards we expect of everyone else?

I clicked on this thread by mistake, but while I'm here, let me summarize the discussion with an imaginary dialog between S and T:

S: There is systemic persecution of blacks in all parts of the Justice system.

T: A few blacks looted a store in Minneapolis.

S: White-collared white man have cheated Americans out of hundreds of billions of dollars with phony schools, phony investment schemes, etc. Yet they do not go to prison: white-collar crime is hard to prosecute.

T: Here's a photo of many looters — at least three of them! — in Minneapolis. Zoom in on their skin color.

S: Eric Garner was killed by police in Staten Island. There are 500,000 black men in prison while Garner's killers are "free to drink martinis and watch the sunrise."

T. Eric Garner was a loosie-selling criminal. Maybet the dollar he cheated the tax collector out of that day would have been the dollar that cured cancer. Anyway, I want you to look at that photo again. Shouldn't there be 500,003 blacks in prison?

S: The present Administration has presided over 100,000 unnecessary deaths and the biggest transfer of wealth in U.S. history.

T: Those looters stole toasters and microwave ovens! Talk about wealth transfer: Next time you have to pay an extra 50¢ for a toaster, you'll know who to blame.

S: Hundreds of thousands of Americans are filled with hatred, and happy to hear of violence against blacks. Black children are deprived of education and health care. Et cetera.

T. Sure, maybe there's a bad white guy somewhere. Or even an innocent black. I'm not talking about them; I'm talking about those three looters in Minneapolis. That should be our sole focus.

 

[Derec]

And yet, criminal is an entirely social construction.

Well, duh. But nevertheless, it is a wholly necessary construction in order to have a civilization.

What you are missing imo is that as soon as you make an unjust law, you suddenly have a whole bunch of criminals.

I am with you on unjust laws, and I think Loren is too. Note that unjust laws are the fault of politicians (esp. legislators), not police that is merely tasked with enforcing laws politicians make.

I would be happy with unjust laws against say marijuana or sex work being repealed. Note that many leftists (e.g. Toni) support criminalizing consensual sex work though.

Most laws are not unjust though. Laws against theft and robbery are not unjust. Laws against arson are not unjust. Laws against murder (Eddie Sole) are not unjust. Laws against sexual assault (Jacob Blake) are not unjust.

The system takes their future. They have no more obligation to the social contract.

Of course they do. Or else they go back to prison. What are you talking about?

Eventually, the number of those who have no obligation gets large enough that they riot and Break shit and then people spouting the line that you spout confirm their realization. The cops are what you rely on to keep the disenfranchised out of your house. Just don't think that your argument means anything to those who are disenfranchised. They have been preyed upon and you create the relationship of mutual predation. Cops are just your team.

Unfuckingbelievable insanity. But par for the course for the far left.

 

[Derec]

S: There is systemic persecution of blacks in all parts of the Justice system.

There isn't.

T: A few blacks looted a store in Minneapolis.

More than a few looters, and more than one store. Among the looted/vandalized businesses was a Vietnamese restaurant as well.

S: White-collared white man have cheated Americans out of hundreds of billions of dollars with phony schools, phony investment schemes, etc. Yet they do not go to prison: white-collar crime is hard to prosecute.

There are people of all races that engage in white-collar crime. And many go to prison. Remember Bernie Madoff "with your money"? He got over 100 years. And he is hardly the only one, just the best known.

S: Eric Garner was killed by police in Staten Island. There are 500,000 black men in prison while Garner's killers are "free to drink martinis and watch the sunrise."

Garner's death wasn't criminal. The chokehold was against policy, but not against any criminal statutes. And Garner was not a well man, which greatly contributed to him dying.
The fact is, Garner resisted arrest and died during the attempted arrest. His kids became millionaires.

S: The present Administration has presided over 100,000 unnecessary deaths and the biggest transfer of wealth in U.S. history.

While Trump mangled the COVID response, we cannot know what the death toll would have been under President Hillary. And what do you mean by "transfer of wealth"? The tax cut?

T: Those looters stole toasters and microwave ovens!

And TVs and luxury goods like Gucci bags.

S: Hundreds of thousands of Americans are filled with hatred, and happy to hear of violence against blacks. Black children are deprived of education and health care. Et cetera.

Nobody here is "happy to hear of violence against blacks". But there are too many on here who applaud violence by and on behalf of blacks.
Also, far from being deprived of education, black kids can get into top colleges with far worse grades and SAT scores than their white and Asian peers. The discrimination continues, because the same applies to med school admissions for example. As far as healthcare, blacks are as eligible for Obamacare as whites. I do not see any "deprivation" here.

I'm not talking about them; I'm talking about those three looters in Minneapolis. That should be our sole focus.[/I]

Not sole focus (was that a pun?), but authorities in Minneapolis surely must focus on identifying the miscreants and bringing them to justice.

 

[Toni]

Tell that to the family of Tamir Rice or Philandro Castile.

Tell them what exactly? The incidents of unreasonable force are uncommon, even if you can come up with examples. And note that Tamir Rice was a concatenation of errors beginning with the realistic looking replica Tamir was playing with was adulterated to resemble a real firearm even more.

Tell that to Brionna Taylor's family.

Brionna Taylor was an innocent victim, sure. But if you were a police officer and somebody fired upon you, would you not return fire?
I think the officer who got the warrant under false pretenses [if that turns out to be true] should be charged with crimes, but I do not think the officers who merely returned fire when Taylor's boyfriend was shooting at them committed any crimes.

None of this justifies looting stores and Vietnamese restaurants though.

I'm pretty sure if you were awakened in the middle of the night to the sound of someone breaking into your home, you would be inclined to grab your firearm, assuming you have one, and to use it. The law gives you that right, as a matter of fact. So Brionna Taylor's boyfriend did nothing wrong here. The police did. This is hardly the only incident of police killing someone in the dead of night while seeking to conduct a warrantless search.

Tamir Rice was a child. He may have been tall for his age, but I looked at that video as many times as I could stand it. It was obvious that he was a child, just by watching his body language. It was obvious that he was responding to the authority of a police car and attempting to comply with whatever it was that they asked of him. They still killed an unarmed child within seconds of roaring onto the scene. Note: there may possibly have been some justification if there were reports of shots fired or if the caller hadn't specified that they believed it was a child with a toy. Still, Tamir Rice was playing in a park as millions of children do--or did before COVID 19. He was playing with a toy gun, as millions of children, including my own sons have done. It is sickening to read posts attempting to justify or excuse that child's murder and to excuse the actions of those inept, incompetent, trigger happy police officers.

 

[Toni]

There isn't.

Yeah. There is. Or so I'm told by members of the justice system.

More than a few looters, and more than one store. Among the looted/vandalized businesses was a Vietnamese restaurant as well.

And??

S: White-collared white man have cheated Americans out of hundreds of billions of dollars with phony schools, phony investment schemes, etc. Yet they do not go to prison: white-collar crime is hard to prosecute.

There are people of all races that engage in white-collar crime. And many go to prison. Remember Bernie Madoff "with your money"? He got over 100 years. And he is hardly the only one, just the best known.

Good ole Bernie, doing hard time. But not shot dead for loose cigarettes or anything like that. No one put their knee on his neck while he cried for his mamma.

S: Eric Garner was killed by police in Staten Island. There are 500,000 black men in prison while Garner's killers are "free to drink martinis and watch the sunrise."

Garner's death wasn't criminal. The chokehold was against policy, but not against any criminal statutes. And Garner was not a well man, which greatly contributed to him dying.
The fact is, Garner resisted arrest and died during the attempted arrest. His kids became millionaires.

I am 100% certain that if I were to put you or anyone else in such a choke hold and that person died, I'd be justifiably charged with murder and/or manslaughter. And should be. I'm pretty sure Garner's kids would rather have their dad back. I'd much rather have my dad back than any amount of money you could name. Maybe you aren't so fond of your dad but try not to judge the rest of the world by your shriveled up heart.

T: Those looters stole toasters and microwave ovens!

And TVs and luxury goods like Gucci bags.

Gucci bags? In that neighborhood? And so what if they did. How many black lives do you think a Gucci bag is worth, anyways?

S: Hundreds of thousands of Americans are filled with hatred, and happy to hear of violence against blacks. Black children are deprived of education and health care. Et cetera.

Nobody here is "happy to hear of violence against blacks". But there are too many on here who applaud violence by and on behalf of blacks.

Oh, I'm sure that you and some of your ilk would be much happier not to have to hear of violence against blacks, as much as you approve of it. No one here has applauded violence by or on the behalf of blacks. No one. Despite some pretty despicable accusations, Derec.

Also, far from being deprived of education, black kids can get into top colleges with far worse grades and SAT scores than their white and Asian peers. The discrimination continues, because the same applies to med school admissions for example. As far as healthcare, blacks are as eligible for Obamacare as whites. I do not see any "deprivation" here.

Yeah, if Obama can be elected president and Harvard and Yale and Princeton can lower their standards to admit a few darkies, then I guess racism is over, huh?

I'm not talking about them; I'm talking about those three looters in Minneapolis. That should be our sole focus.[/I]

Note sole focus (was that a pun?), but authorities in Minneapolis surely must focus on identifying the miscreants and bringing them to justice.

Pun? Or is the only sole you are familiar with the soles of cops' shoes?

 

[Derec]

Yeah. There is. Or so I'm told by members of the justice system.

I disagree. Individual officers may be biased (but then again, you have anti-white racists like Sheriff Victor Hill of Clayton County, Ga) but that is different than systemic racism.

And??

Swammerdami was trivialzing what happened by claiming that only one store was looted by a few individuals.

Good ole Bernie, doing hard time. But not shot dead for loose cigarettes or anything like that. No one put their knee on his neck while he cried for his mamma.

That's because he didn't resist arrest. Had he fought with officers, put one in headlock, and been armed with a knife, he would probably have gotten shot too.

I am 100% certain that if I were to put you or anyone else in such a choke hold and that person died, I'd be justifiably charged with murder and/or manslaughter. And should be.

If you did that for no reason, that would have been assault, and yes, if the guy you assaulted died you would probably be charged with manslaughter.
But that is different than police attempting to legally arrest a suspect. If you were to handcuff me or somebody else, and transported them elsewhere, you would be charged with kidnapping. By your logic, cops are then guilty of kidnapping every time they arrest a suspect!

I'm pretty sure Garner's kids would rather have their dad back.

Maybe. I wonder why a hearse chasing lawyer who demands millions is the first person these families call then.

Gucci bags? In that neighborhood?

Nicolett Mall has high end stores.

And so what if they did. How many black lives do you think a Gucci bag is worth, anyways?

What kind of statement is that? Because a human life is worth more than an expensive bag, black people should be allowed to steal luxury items with impunity?

Oh, I'm sure that you and some of your ilk would be much happier not to have to hear of violence against blacks, as much as you approve of it.

Talking about "despicable accusations" ...

No one here has applauded violence by or on the behalf of blacks. No one. Despite some pretty despicable accusations, Derec.

Look at what BWE has been writing about the violence.

Yeah, if Obama can be elected president and Harvard and Yale and Princeton can lower their standards to admit a few darkies, then I guess racism is over, huh?

The first part is true. The second is racial discrimination and thus racism in itself.

Pun? Or is the only sole you are familiar with the soles of cops' shoes?

The murderer who killed himself and thereby triggered the latest round of rioting and looting in Minneapolis was named Eddie Sole.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There isn't.

What there is is a bias against the poor and since blacks are disproportionately poor it looks like bias against blacks.

S: The present Administration has presided over 100,000 unnecessary deaths and the biggest transfer of wealth in U.S. history.

While Trump mangled the COVID response, we cannot know what the death toll would have been under President Hillary.

We don't know, but we can look at the countries with a reasonably competent response and compare them.

And what do you mean by "transfer of wealth"? The tax cut?

Yup. That was a huge transfer of wealth to the top. The benefits for the middle class and below will go away in time, the wealthy keep theirs.

Not sole focus (was that a pun?), but authorities in Minneapolis surely must focus on identifying the miscreants and bringing them to justice.

But they focus on BLM instead.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

I disagree. Individual officers may be biased (but then again, you have anti-white racists like Sheriff Victor Hill of Clayton County, Ga) but that is different than systemic racism.


Swammerdami was trivialzing what happened by claiming that only one store was looted by a few individuals.

Good ole Bernie, doing hard time. But not shot dead for loose cigarettes or anything like that. No one put their knee on his neck while he cried for his mamma.

That's because he didn't resist arrest. Had he fought with officers, put one in headlock, and been armed with a knife, he would probably have gotten shot too.

I am 100% certain that if I were to put you or anyone else in such a choke hold and that person died, I'd be justifiably charged with murder and/or manslaughter. And should be.

If you did that for no reason, that would have been assault, and yes, if the guy you assaulted died you would probably be charged with manslaughter.
But that is different than police attempting to legally arrest a suspect. If you were to handcuff me or somebody else, and transported them elsewhere, you would be charged with kidnapping. By your logic, cops are then guilty of kidnapping every time they arrest a suspect!

I'm pretty sure Garner's kids would rather have their dad back.

Maybe. I wonder why a hearse chasing lawyer who demands millions is the first person these families call then.

Gucci bags? In that neighborhood?

Nicolett Mall has high end stores.

And so what if they did. How many black lives do you think a Gucci bag is worth, anyways?

What kind of statement is that? Because a human life is worth more than an expensive bag, black people should be allowed to steal luxury items with impunity?

Oh, I'm sure that you and some of your ilk would be much happier not to have to hear of violence against blacks, as much as you approve of it.

Talking about "despicable accusations" ...

No one here has applauded violence by or on the behalf of blacks. No one. Despite some pretty despicable accusations, Derec.

Look at what BWE has been writing about the violence.

Yeah, if Obama can be elected president and Harvard and Yale and Princeton can lower their standards to admit a few darkies, then I guess racism is over, huh?

The first part is true. The second is racial discrimination and thus racism in itself.

Pun? Or is the only sole you are familiar with the soles of cops' shoes?

The murderer who killed himself and thereby triggered the latest round of rioting and looting in Minneapolis was named Eddie Sole.

What specifically has BWE been writing about the violence?

 

[Derec]

What specifically has BWE been writing about the violence?

You are in favor of it.

 

[Derec]

What there is is a bias against the poor and since blacks are disproportionately poor it looks like bias against blacks.

That could be the case.

We don't know, but we can look at the countries with a reasonably competent response and compare them.

Every country is different though. Germans for example have a metality of following the rules, while Americans love to be rebellious.
You don't think that the anti-maskers would still be anti-masking if Pres. Hillary told them to put the damn mask on?

Now other things a more competent administration could achieve. Proper national strategy, coordinating with governors over PPE and testing, not touting discredited potential cures. Things like that. But it's difficult to tell what the impact would have been, and you can't exactly compare the US with places like Germany or New Zealand.

But they focus on BLM instead.

But they are the problem! The leader of the BLM Chicago for example explicitly endorsed looting and rioting as a form of "reparations" for black people.
‘Winning Has Come Through Revolts’: A Black Lives Matter Activist On Why She Supports Looting

A lot of people are really attacking our pages. They’re like, ‘Oh, you support the looters.’ And yeah, we do, 100%. That’s reparations.[...]. The way that history has worked, the way that we’ve ever gotten wins, has never been through peaceful protests alone, and I will say with quotes, “peaceful protests.” Winning has come through revolts. Winning has come through riots. Winning has come through constant, constant work. … The only people that can undermine our movement are the police, our oppressors, and then us when we don’t believe in the people that we’re fighting with. [...]The whole idea of criminality is based on racism anyway, because criminality is punishing people for things that they have needed to do to survive or just the way that society has affected them with white supremacist B.S. So it’s like [Mayor Lori Lightfoot] deciding what is criminal and what isn’t.

And she is definitely not a white supremacist trying to make #BLM look bad. Unless she has a makeup department even better than what Eddie Murphy had on SNL.

No, she is not trying to make #BLM look bad. They ARE bad!

 

[Derec]

I'm pretty sure if you were awakened in the middle of the night to the sound of someone breaking into your home, you would be inclined to grab your firearm, assuming you have one, and to use it. The law gives you that right, as a matter of fact. So Brionna Taylor's boyfriend did nothing wrong here.

If the police announced themselves, then yes he did wrong by shooting at them. But what you said is probably why the charges against him were dropped even though he shot and wounded a police officer.

The police did.

If there was malfeasance in obtaining the warrant, then the officer(s) responsible and only those officers did wrong.
The officers returning fire when fired upon did nothing wrong either.

This is hardly the only incident of police killing someone in the dead of night while seeking to conduct a warrantless search.

As far as I know, there was a warrant. It's just that the subject of the warrant, Taylor's ex boyfriend, was no longer living there.

Tamir Rice was a child. He may have been tall for his age, but I looked at that video as many times as I could stand it. It was obvious that he was a child, just by watching his body language. It was obvious that he was responding to the authority of a police car and attempting to comply with whatever it was that they asked of him. They still killed an unarmed child within seconds of roaring onto the scene.

I know he was a child. The whole thing was a fuckup. But a fuckup does not equal murder.

Note: there may possibly have been some justification if there were reports of shots fired or if the caller hadn't specified that they believed it was a child with a toy.

The caller was alarmed enough to call 911. And his thoughts that it might be a minor with a gun that's not real was not relayed to the officers.

Still, Tamir Rice was playing in a park as millions of children do--or did before COVID 19. He was playing with a toy gun, as millions of children, including my own sons have done.

You really can't do that with realistic looking guns. Especially when the gun was further modified by removing the orange tip. Note that guns like the one he was playing with have been used in armed robberies. Including by a kid only a year older than Tamir.

 

[Derec]

None of this justifies looting stores and Vietnamese restaurants though.

I disagree

 

[Derec]

the system is designed to have an underclass. You just want a way to justify what is structurally inherent.

Name me a system that doesn't. The difference is that in Western capitalism the "underclass" is still pretty well off, especially compared to other systems throughout history. Including actually existing socialism.