Now #BLMers are rioting in Minneapolis after black murderer kills himself

[Swammerdami]

Tamir Rice was not engaged in criminal activity. A well-functioning social compact would nit allow those officers off.

This isn't leftist fantasyland, bad things sometimes happen. We mandate those orange tips specifically to avoid incidents like Tamir Rice. He defeated a safety system and died because of it. Reality is sometimes a very harsh grader.

I will give you some credit, Loren, and assume you never watched the video of Tamir Rice's killing. The police officers did not issue a warning while many meters away, as would be normal behavior to keep the encounter non-lethal. Instead they drove up at speed to Tamir's location, got out of their car and immediately shot to kill.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are likely to happen when a person that is considered too immature to become an officer at a suburb police department, makes the cut in the urban police department.

We mandate those orange tips specifically to avoid incidents like Tamir Rice. He defeated a safety system and died because of it. Reality is sometimes a very harsh grader.

Not really. The officer that shot and killed a kid that didn't have a real gun, at the end of a very very short sequence of events that involved no thinking whatsoever, didn't serve any time.

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die. That's reality no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand.

 

[ZiprHead]

They are likely to happen when a person that is considered too immature to become an officer at a suburb police department, makes the cut in the urban police department.

We mandate those orange tips specifically to avoid incidents like Tamir Rice. He defeated a safety system and died because of it. Reality is sometimes a very harsh grader.

Not really. The officer that shot and killed a kid that didn't have a real gun, at the end of a very very short sequence of events that involved no thinking whatsoever, didn't serve any time.

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die. That's reality no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand.

The person that reported it said it was a kid and was probably a toy. This was a clusterfuck by the entire department from beginning to end.

 

[laughing dog]

They are likely to happen when a person that is considered too immature to become an officer at a suburb police department, makes the cut in the urban police department.

We mandate those orange tips specifically to avoid incidents like Tamir Rice. He defeated a safety system and died because of it. Reality is sometimes a very harsh grader.

Not really. The officer that shot and killed a kid that didn't have a real gun, at the end of a very very short sequence of events that involved no thinking whatsoever, didn't serve any time.

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die. That's reality no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand.

You assume the status quo is the optimal social compact. Clearly, it is not. Otherwise, there would not be so many protests over these easily avoidable police shootings and brutal conduct.

Since an innocent civilian might die whenever they encounter a police over. That's a reality no matter how far your nose is up the ass of the police. Applying your reasoning, it is okay for civilian to open fire on the police in self defense. In other words, your reasoning is truly morally depraved.

 

[Swammerdami]

I will give you some credit, Loren, and assume you never watched the video of Tamir Rice's killing. The police officers did not issue a warning while many meters away, as would be normal behavior to keep the encounter non-lethal. Instead they drove up at speed to Tamir's location, got out of their car and immediately shot to kill.

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die. That's reality no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand.

It appears that you not only didn't watch the video, but are unaware of Tamir's age when he was killed.

I won't post the spoiler: Reply again when you've spent the Google and can tell us Tamir's age.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I will give you some credit, Loren, and assume you never watched the video of Tamir Rice's killing. The police officers did not issue a warning while many meters away, as would be normal behavior to keep the encounter non-lethal. Instead they drove up at speed to Tamir's location, got out of their car and immediately shot to kill.

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die. That's reality no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand.

It appears that you not only didn't watch the video, but are unaware of Tamir's age when he was killed.

I won't post the spoiler: Reply again when you've spent the Google and can tell us Tamir's age.

His age has no bearing on this. The cops are going to evaluate the situation they see, not unknown numbers.

 

[Swammerdami]

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die.

This sounded like victim blaming to me, and is what I responded to. Evidently I was wrong:

His age has no bearing on this. The cops are going to evaluate the situation they see, not unknown numbers.

Had the cops shot and killed a 5-year old, they'd have been just as justified ("age has no bearing"); hence we derive that the earlier post was NOT victim blaming. (Use of the passive voice might have helped — as phrased the statement could easily be mistaken for victim blaming.)

Four years old? Three? Is there some threshold where cops should have shown leniency?

I will admit the cops "saw a hard-to-evaluate situation." Instead of questioning the child from a safe distance, the driver of the police vehicle drove up right next to him, and the cops immediately jumped out of the car, exposing themselves to possible gunfire. Whatever compelled them to do that should share the blame. Now at close proximity to a toy gun — a holstered toy gun! — the cops had no choice but to empty their magazines into the helpless child.

What's wrong with this picture?

Since Loren doesn't know — or pretends not to know^* — Tamir's age, I will reveal it. Tamir Rice was twelve years old when he was gunned down by Cleveland police. Twelve. Tamir wasn't yet even a teenager. (* - On reread this sounds almost snarky. But why didn't Loren write "Tamir was 12 but it has no bearing" if he knew the age? Either he didn't know the age, or chose deliberately to suppress it.)

I think Tamir was tall for his age and could be mistaken — by someone who made no attempt to engage him in conversation — for a strapping 14 year-old buck. But — and I am curious whether Loren will address this question — if conditions were identical and a 12 year-old white boy with blond hair (who might appear to be 14) were the "suspect", would the homicide have been just as likely?

What should the Rice family have done to save the life of their son? His white-skinned playmates were playing with toy guns; should the family have warned him: "Sorry, black boys can't have toy guns"?

Perhaps when they saw that their son was big for his age, they should have asked the police to take him into custody so he wouldn't be on the streets available to be killed by zealous cops. Commit a crime deliberately, spend some of his childhood locked up, learn to deal respectfully with prison guards and other white-skinned authority figures? Is this what families like the Rices should do to protect sons who are tall for their age?

 

[Derec]

You assume the status quo is the optimal social compact. Clearly, it is not. Otherwise, there would not be so many protests over these easily avoidable police shootings and brutal conduct.

It is naive to think the status quo is optimal. But that does not mean the direction the protesters want to move society would be better. In fact, it would be worse.
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Much, much worse!

Since an innocent civilian might die whenever they encounter a police over.

The chances of that are infinitesimal. Vast majority of police shootings are justified, and even those that are questionable or unjustified rarely involve innocent people. Take the recent case of Dijon Kizzee. While the case is still under investigation, it is clear that he punched a police officer, which is a felony. Attacking police increases your chances of getting shot many orders of magnitude!

 

[Toni]

They are likely to happen when a person that is considered too immature to become an officer at a suburb police department, makes the cut in the urban police department.

We mandate those orange tips specifically to avoid incidents like Tamir Rice. He defeated a safety system and died because of it. Reality is sometimes a very harsh grader.

Not really. The officer that shot and killed a kid that didn't have a real gun, at the end of a very very short sequence of events that involved no thinking whatsoever, didn't serve any time.

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die. That's reality no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand.

Except Tamir Rice didn't point a replica gun at the police. Instead, he dutifully showed it to the officers and was killed.

He was a child. The police were incompetent and racist. Your defense of the police in the murder of Tamir Rice is a really, really bad look, Loren.

 

[Toni]

You go pointing a realistic replica gun at people, you might die.

This sounded like victim blaming to me, and is what I responded to. Evidently I was wrong:

His age has no bearing on this. The cops are going to evaluate the situation they see, not unknown numbers.

Had the cops shot and killed a 5-year old, they'd have been just as justified ("age has no bearing"); hence we derive that the earlier post was NOT victim blaming. (Use of the passive voice might have helped — as phrased the statement could easily be mistaken for victim blaming.)

Four years old? Three? Is there some threshold where cops should have shown leniency?

I will admit the cops "saw a hard-to-evaluate situation." Instead of questioning the child from a safe distance, the driver of the police vehicle drove up right next to him, and the cops immediately jumped out of the car, exposing themselves to possible gunfire. Whatever compelled them to do that should share the blame. Now at close proximity to a toy gun — a holstered toy gun! — the cops had no choice but to empty their magazines into the helpless child.

What's wrong with this picture?

Since Loren doesn't know — or pretends not to know^* — Tamir's age, I will reveal it. Tamir Rice was twelve years old when he was gunned down by Cleveland police. Twelve. Tamir wasn't yet even a teenager. (* - On reread this sounds almost snarky. But why didn't Loren write "Tamir was 12 but it has no bearing" if he knew the age? Either he didn't know the age, or chose deliberately to suppress it.)

I think Tamir was tall for his age and could be mistaken — by someone who made no attempt to engage him in conversation — for a strapping 14 year-old buck. But — and I am curious whether Loren will address this question — if conditions were identical and a 12 year-old white boy with blond hair (who might appear to be 14) were the "suspect", would the homicide have been just as likely?

What should the Rice family have done to save the life of their son? His white-skinned playmates were playing with toy guns; should the family have warned him: "Sorry, black boys can't have toy guns"?

Perhaps when they saw that their son was big for his age, they should have asked the police to take him into custody so he wouldn't be on the streets available to be killed by zealous cops. Commit a crime deliberately, spend some of his childhood locked up, learn to deal respectfully with prison guards and other white-skinned authority figures? Is this what families like the Rices should do to protect sons who are tall for their age?

I watched the video several times. Tamir Rice's body language was that of a child, and in fact, a child deferring to adult authority.
But he was black and tall for his age and HOW DARE HE be black and tall for his age!!!!!!! Obviously was on his way to a lifetime of criminal activity such as selling loose cigarettes or jay walking or bringing home junk food for a younger sibling....

 

[Derec]

I think Tamir was tall for his age and could be mistaken — by someone who made no attempt to engage him in conversation — for a strapping 14 year-old buck.

Not only tall but he is also a portly fellow, a bit long in the waistband. He was 5'7" and 195 lbs. That's literally off the charts for a 12 year old boy.

In fact, his height is median for a 15 year old, but his weight is between the 90th and 95th percentile for an 18 year old. If you didn't get a good look at his face he could pass for an adult male - in fact, the 20-something George Zimmerman has a similar height and build. Even the caller who thought he might be a minor probably would have guessed something like 16 and not 12.

But — and I am curious whether Loren will address this question — if conditions were identical and a 12 year-old white boy with blond hair (who might appear to be 14) were the "suspect", would the homicide have been just as likely?

Not 14 but 15-18. And who knows. Counterfactuals are impossible to answer. But white kids have been shot for having a wii controller, so not even a realistic firearm replica, so I think you are making too much of race.

What should the Rice family have done to save the life of their son? His white-skinned playmates were playing with toy guns; should the family have warned him: "Sorry, black boys can't have toy guns"?

I do not think anybody should be playing with realistic looking guns, especially with orange tips removed and when you look significantly older than your age.

Perhaps when they saw that their son was big for his age, they should have asked the police to take him into custody so he wouldn't be on the streets available to be killed by zealous cops.

Or like not play with realistic firearm replicas. And note, kids not much older than Tamir have used such weapons to commit armed robbery. Have you heard of Tyre King?

 

[Derec]

He was a child.

Technically, so is Kyle Rittenhouse.

The police were incompetent and racist.

I think they are incompetent or at least had a momentary lapse of judgment because they made a tactical fuckup. However, there is zero evidence that they were "racist".
Shooting somebody who happens to be black is not automatically "racist".

Your defense of the police in the murder of Tamir Rice is a really, really bad look, Loren.

Not murder. A terrible fuckup from all sides, but not a murder.

 

[Derec]

And why do you suppose that is? What would cause children of certain races to not perform as well on tests?

I don't know. Probably a combination of several factors. I think culture plays a big role. To say that the only possible reason is some bias in the test and therefore demanding that no tests be used and that some sort of overt or covert racial quota be used instead is very dangerous.

Why do certain races not have the same educational resources as children of other races? Why do you think schools in poor neighborhoods suffer from so many infrastructure problems when schools in rich neighborhoods don't?

Infrastructure problems like what for example? These schools usually do not lack funding in terms of dollars per student. I think the biggest difference is the kids themselves and the attitude toward education they have learned from their families of origin.
I do not think cheapening the special high schools by scrapping admission standards is the way to go. Better would be to mandate that all schools must offer honors/advanced and later in high school AP classes that challenge the smart kids. Most important is to start this early, at elementary school level.

I don't want to presume I know what you think about these issues, but I personally don't believe that rich people *deserve* better schools than poor people.

So ban private schools? In any case, what I was writing about were special public high schools like Stuyvesant. Money will not get you in. Test scores will. At least it has been that way.

And if we claim that the way out of poverty is through education, we should be making sure that the poorer neighborhoods get the resources they need and make sure that they don't have environmental problems that interfere with the childrens' ability to learn.

As I said, offer more challenging classes in those schools. Because if most or even many students are at remedial level they will drag the smart students with them if they are in the same classes. But that is more expensive (thus eating into bloated administrative parts of the school budget) and difficult to do, so fauxgressives like BdB prefer to tear down special public high schools by demanding they institute a de facto racial quota.

Ultimately, if we equalize these opportunities I believe that we will actually have less socioeconomic inequities and ultimately less crime, less violence, less social unrest.

But you don't equalize opportunities by admitting less qualified kids just because they have the right skin color and/or because their parents or grandparents come from a Spanish-speaking country.

 

[Derec]

There would still be some but having the Orange Turd encouraging the rebels makes the problem a lot worse.

I am not sure he would not have encouraged the mask refuseniks just as effectively from Trump Tower had he lost. In fact, losing would probably have made them more motivated to rebel.
Where Trump did most damage is in the official federal response to the pandemic.

Not to mention favoring the herd immunity strategy, actively seeking to increase infections with the crazy idea the high risk people can be shielded.

Especially since risk is relative. A low risk person can still die or get really ill.

BLM has some real kooks. That doesn't mean it's BLM doing the looting. Look at the faces of the looters--even with a mask you can tell what color their skin is.

Most seem to be black. Very unlikely to be some sort of Uncle Ruckus. And those that are white can be #BLM supporters, as there are many white #BLMers.
In cities with low black population like Portland and to lesser extent even Minneapolis, most #BLMers out protesting, looting and arsoning will be white.

 

[Derec]

Where did I say that? Because I am generally not in favor of violence, I wonder if I was subtling where I should have been obviousing.

Here.

None of this justifies looting stores and Vietnamese restaurants though.

I disagree

 

[Derec]

Name me a system that doesn't. The difference is that in Western capitalism the "underclass" is still pretty well off, especially compared to other systems throughout history. Including actually existing socialism.

the underclass in Nordic countries is worse off than in America?

Nordic countries are not socialist. They are part of Western capitalism, albeit with somewhat stricter regulations and more generous social programs than US. Their economies are based on the market and on private ownership of means of production.

Anyway, you entirely missed my point.

There was a point?

 

[Derec]

@ Derec - My dialog was an obvious caricature, hoping that simplicity would focus your thoughts.

It did - right on the flaws of your arguments.

Three looters, or even 100, shouldn't make us forget that Millions suffer under a racist system.

I reject the assertion that ours is a "racist" system under which "millions" suffer. There are flaws and there are certainly racists (on both sides!) but that does not mean the system itself is racist against blacks.

We have a hateful President who has literally denied Covid-19 aid to D-voting states for political gain. But you want to focus on 100 looters who may or may not have stolen a Gucci bag.

The "presidential politics" subforum is over there. And we have several COVID threads in the main PD. Adults can discuss several disparate issues.

Oh my. I and others have linked to supporting news items and opinion. At this point the onus is on you. YOU Google up the relevant on-line essays and explain why you think they'e wrong. Take up the challenge! Show us that yours is the voice of wisdom, not just Trumpist babble.

I have seen those supposed studies. They all make the mistake of equating disparate outcomes with evidence for disparate treatment by race. In other words they are garbage. Just because the Trump is bad, does not mean you identitarians on the Left are any better.

 

[Derec]

There is something wrong with the social compact when officers of the state are absolved of shooting unarmed civilians because of fear/cowardice.

Being armed with a realistic replica counts as armed. Being armed with a knife (Jacob Blake) counts as being armed. And being armed with a gun and shooting oneself does not count as a police shooting anyway (Eddie Sole, the cause of the recent Minneapolis riots from OP).

It is obvious that there us a problem with the social compact when a significant portion of the population think civilians with criminal records merit being shot. It is obvious that the reaction to the brutal treatment of George Floyd shows that the is a problem with our social compact.

Nobody thinks that people with criminal records merit being shot just for having criminal records. But those criminal records may explain why they attacked police or resisted arrest with violence.
And as far as George Floyd goes, he had a lethal amount of fentanyl in his system.


Floyd's lungs were filled with liquid because of his fentanyl overdose. Chauvin's actions turn out to be a red herring. Murder charges should be dismissed, and would have been already if it wasn't politically expedient to railroad him.

 

[ZiprHead]

It appears that you not only didn't watch the video, but are unaware of Tamir's age when he was killed.

I won't post the spoiler: Reply again when you've spent the Google and can tell us Tamir's age.

His age has no bearing on this. The cops are going to evaluate the situation they see, not unknown numbers.

The problem was the cops didn't take any time to actually evaluate the situation.

 

[Toni]

Not only tall but he is also a portly fellow, a bit long in the waistband. He was 5'7" and 195 lbs. That's literally off the charts for a 12 year old boy.
View attachment 29196
In fact, his height is median for a 15 year old, but his weight is between the 90th and 95th percentile for an 18 year old. If you didn't get a good look at his face he could pass for an adult male - in fact, the 20-something George Zimmerman has a similar height and build. Even the caller who thought he might be a minor probably would have guessed something like 16 and not 12.


Not 14 but 15-18. And who knows. Counterfactuals are impossible to answer. But white kids have been shot for having a wii controller, so not even a realistic firearm replica, so I think you are making too much of race.

What should the Rice family have done to save the life of their son? His white-skinned playmates were playing with toy guns; should the family have warned him: "Sorry, black boys can't have toy guns"?

I do not think anybody should be playing with realistic looking guns, especially with orange tips removed and when you look significantly older than your age.

Perhaps when they saw that their son was big for his age, they should have asked the police to take him into custody so he wouldn't be on the streets available to be killed by zealous cops.

Or like not play with realistic firearm replicas. And note, kids not much older than Tamir have used such weapons to commit armed robbery. Have you heard of Tyre King?

WTF does it matter that Tamir Rice was tall for his age???????????????????????????


Exactly what is so broken in you that you must go to such enormous lengths to justify the murder of a child by police?