Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[laughing dog]

If ____ is not responsible then such a tax is simply an unjustified eat-the-rich.

That is your unsupported opinion. From a rationale point of view, it makes sense to tax where there are funds.

 

[laughing dog]

It's not clear from the video, but police claim he went for one of their guns. That presents a lethal thread and would justify lethal force.
The only question is, is what police saying true?

I think it's more likely he panicked and was flailing at them, not specifically going for a gun. They wouldn't have known that, though.

It's their job to know that.

 

[Toni]

OK: That's the problem: Far too many people believe that policing is risky similar to being in the military. Being a police officer is NOT like being in the military. Police are not military.

The only thing I compared was "knowing what you signed up for". Do the police and Military both have that in common or not?

Edit: BTW yes policing is risky. Lots of dead bodies to prove it however I did not compare the risk to the military. The policing is risky comment was it's own statement that ended with a period.

Sorry to have jumped on you.

Too often the mission and duties of police and military are conflated by some people. I don’t think you’re one of those people. I do think I’ve become perhaps overly sensitive to any hint of such conflation, even when it is not there.

 

[ZiprHead]

Disabled woman dies of stroke in cop car after begging for help

Knoxville Police have released their body camera video of the harrowing incident which happened at Fort Sanders Regional Medical Center, on February 6.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Horrific footage released by police shows a wheelchair-bound woman slurring and pleading with police as she is arrested for refusing to leave hospital, just moments before she died from a stroke in the back of a cop car.

Knoxville Police have released their body camera video of the harrowing incident which happened at Fort Sanders Regional Medical Center, in Tennessee, on February 6.

Lisa Edwards, 60, had been refusing to leave the hospital and was arrested on trespassing charges when she died in the back of the police cruiser – minutes after telling cops 'you're going to kill me'.

The footage shows Lisa being taken into custody, gasping and wheezing before she tells officers that she 'can't breathe'. Her skin becomes grayer, and her voice more slurred as the footage continues. The latter is a well-known symptom of a stroke.

Authorities released the hour and 16-minute video with a warning that some of the video may be distressing.

Actually I think this is more the hospital's fault than the cops fault.

 

[Derec]

From a rationale point of view, it makes sense to tax where there are funds.

The Willie Sutton theory of taxation.

 

[Toni]

Disabled woman dies of stroke in cop car after begging for help

Knoxville Police have released their body camera video of the harrowing incident which happened at Fort Sanders Regional Medical Center, on February 6.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Horrific footage released by police shows a wheelchair-bound woman slurring and pleading with police as she is arrested for refusing to leave hospital, just moments before she died from a stroke in the back of a cop car.

Knoxville Police have released their body camera video of the harrowing incident which happened at Fort Sanders Regional Medical Center, in Tennessee, on February 6.

Lisa Edwards, 60, had been refusing to leave the hospital and was arrested on trespassing charges when she died in the back of the police cruiser – minutes after telling cops 'you're going to kill me'.

The footage shows Lisa being taken into custody, gasping and wheezing before she tells officers that she 'can't breathe'. Her skin becomes grayer, and her voice more slurred as the footage continues. The latter is a well-known symptom of a stroke.

Authorities released the hour and 16-minute video with a warning that some of the video may be distressing.

Actually I think this is more the hospital's fault than the cops fault.

I think there’s more than enough blame to go around. The hospital is primarily to blame, of course.

But the police are not obliged to remove a person in obvious need of medical help because a hospital demands it.

 

[laughing dog]

From a rationale point of view, it makes sense to tax where there are funds.

The Willie Sutton theory of taxation.

Only in the eyes of "taxation is theft" crowd.

 

[Derec]

Police should not expect to fire a weapon.

They don't. Most police never fire their weapon in anger.

I think that in most situations, police should not be armed, and certainly not with guns, possibly not with tasers which are lethal far too often.

That is a very extremists take. Police need weapons. In US, they certainly need firearms because so many people they encounter are armed themselves. And you want to even take away their tasers. Basically you want criminals to be far better armed than the police.

For their own safety: then that panicked teenager or homeless drunk couldn't be going for their weapon and need to be shot to death. Lots of lives saved!

What "panicked teenager"? The 32 year old "teenager" who went into the wrong Lexus? And what "homeless drunk" are you talking about?

What happens when police are called to respond to an armed robbery? Or another case with an armed perp?
This happened a few dats ago at a MARTA (our local transit system) station.
Man stopped for marijuana, shot and killed after pulling gun on MARTA police, chief says
If police are unarmed, as you want them to be, how do they respond when a perp pulls a gun on them? Why should they risk death from armed perps just so perps who attack them and go for their gun are somewhat safer?

Btw, I have been at that station (North Avenue) many times. Crazy.

The absolute fact is that police are not routinely armed in many other countries.

That does not apply to vast majority of countries. And most of those whose police are not routinely armed are tiny, like Nauru or Tuvalu.

UK being a notable exception of a big western country whose police do not routinely carry firearms. But their gun laws are also crazy strict. And I do think they are routinely armed with tasers.

NO other country has the same problem with police killing suspects or suspect deaths while in custody or with gun violence. NONE. It isn't even close.

Venezuela has a rate of police shootings 64 times bigger than US. Their intentional homicide rate is almost six times higher than ours.
You are categorically wrong.

 

[Derec]

You'd think after around 200 something years of policing, they'd have found a way to catch white people. I guess they aren't trying hard enough? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For the most part, police are not going out of their way to catch drug users, white or black. I think they catch most people on possession charges incidentally. Commission of another crime, like theft or mugging, or if you are stupid enough to light up in public while e.g. walking down the steps in a MARTA station:
Man stopped for marijuana, shot and killed after pulling gun on MARTA police, chief says

One man is dead after being shot by officers at a MARTA station in midtown Atlanta, police confirmed.
Police say two undercover officers watched a man light a marijuana cigarette as he went down to the train platform at the North Avenue MARTA station around 4:30 p.m.
MARTA Police Chief Scott Kreher says that as the officers were attempting to give the 23-year-old man a citation, he began fighting with them. They say he pulled out a gun and pointed it at one of the officers.

Again, I think ACLU is exaggerating the racial discrepancy. Or do they/you have some evidence for the 10x number? And any discrepancy that exists is probably explained due to socioeconomic and behavioral factors, not racial ones.

 

[Toni]

Police should not expect to fire a weapon.

They don't. Most police never fire their weapon in anger.

I think that in most situations, police should not be armed, and certainly not with guns, possibly not with tasers which are lethal far too often.

That is a very extremists take. Police need weapons. In US, they certainly need firearms because so many people they encounter are armed themselves. And you want to even take away their tasers. Basically you want criminals to be far better armed than the police.

For their own safety: then that panicked teenager or homeless drunk couldn't be going for their weapon and need to be shot to death. Lots of lives saved!

What "panicked teenager"? The 32 year old "teenager" who went into the wrong Lexus? And what "homeless drunk" are you talking about?

What happens when police are called to respond to an armed robbery? Or another case with an armed perp?
This happened a few dats ago at a MARTA (our local transit system) station.
Man stopped for marijuana, shot and killed after pulling gun on MARTA police, chief says
If police are unarmed, as you want them to be, how do they respond when a perp pulls a gun on them? Why should they risk death from armed perps just so perps who attack them and go for their gun are somewhat safer?

Btw, I have been at that station (North Avenue) many times. Crazy.

The absolute fact is that police are not routinely armed in many other countries.

That does not apply to vast majority of countries. And most of those whose police are not routinely armed are tiny, like Nauru or Tuvalu.

UK being a notable exception of a big western country whose police do not routinely carry firearms. But their gun laws are also crazy strict. And I do think they are routinely armed with tasers.

NO other country has the same problem with police killing suspects or suspect deaths while in custody or with gun violence. NONE. It isn't even close.

Venezuela has a rate of police shootings 64 times bigger than US. Their intentional homicide rate is almost six times higher than ours.
You are categorically wrong.

Derek, anyone can make a mistake and try to get into the wrong vehicle. I've done it myself. Hell, it used to be that sometimes keys of one car worked in another of the same make and year.

There is zero indication that there was any ill intent on the part of the person who made the error, no matter what their age.

Police obviously over reacted and panicked and killed someone. THAT is why police should be unarmed.

 

[Derec]

Derek, anyone can make a mistake and try to get into the wrong vehicle. I've done it myself.

I've done it myself too. The vehicle was same make, model, color as mine, parked two spaces down. Plus, it was dark and raining and the driver left the doors unlocked.

There is zero indication that there was any ill intent on the part of the person who made the error

I never claimed there was. Neither is there any indication of ill intent on the part of police. It was a tragic situation all around.

, no matter what their age.

His age. There is no indication that the decedent used any weird pronouns. He was not Tortugita.
I only brought up his age because you referred to him as a "teenager" and elsewhere in this thread you referred to him as "a kid".

Police obviously over reacted and panicked and killed someone. THAT is why police should be unarmed.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. A very unusual case, even if the police acted unlawfully here, is not a reason to disarm police. Vast majority of police shootings involve armed subjects. Most police shootings involve subjects armed with firearms. Do I have to post that pie chart yet again? Are you finally going to acknowledge the facts if I do?
Note that even in the small minority of the cases where the perp is unarmed, he often attacks police and often tries to take their gun.
Michael Brown being one.
This case, again involving MARTA, being another.
MARTA officer shoots ex-boyfriend after he attacked her on-duty, police say

Obviously, police need to be armed.

P.S.: I noticed you ignored most of the points I was making. Why?

 

[Derec]

The issue is; over a length of time, we've (America) has had judges and state prosecutors not doing their part.

Exactly. You have fauxgressive prosecutors and judges go easy on criminals, including violent criminals, and releasing them way too soon.

Edit: now after seeing a revolving door effect in the courts our police force is demoralized.

Indeed.

( again setting aside my gripes over the disparity between races)

The disparity in police shootings between races is not bigger than the disparity in serious crimes such as homicides between races. In fact, it is smaller.

 

[laughing dog]

[The disparity in police shootings between races is not bigger than the disparity in serious crimes such as homicides between races. In fact, it is smaller.

Totally irrelevant. The police are agents of the state, criminals are not.

 

[Toni]

Derek, anyone can make a mistake and try to get into the wrong vehicle. I've done it myself.

I've done it myself too. The vehicle was same make, model, color as mine, parked two spaces down. Plus, it was dark and raining and the driver left the doors unlocked.

There is zero indication that there was any ill intent on the part of the person who made the error

I never claimed there was. Neither is there any indication of ill intent on the part of police. It was a tragic situation all around.

, no matter what their age.

His age. There is no indication that the decedent used any weird pronouns. He was not Tortugita.
I only brought up his age because you referred to him as a "teenager" and elsewhere in this thread you referred to him as "a kid".

Police obviously over reacted and panicked and killed someone. THAT is why police should be unarmed.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. A very unusual case, even if the police acted unlawfully here, is not a reason to disarm police. Vast majority of police shootings involve armed subjects. Most police shootings involve subjects armed with firearms. Do I have to post that pie chart yet again? Are you finally going to acknowledge the facts if I do?
Note that even in the small minority of the cases where the perp is unarmed, he often attacks police and often tries to take their gun.
Michael Brown being one.
This case, again involving MARTA, being another.
MARTA officer shoots ex-boyfriend after he attacked her on-duty, police say

Obviously, police need to be armed.

P.S.: I noticed you ignored most of the points I was making. Why?

Time

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually I think this is more the hospital's fault than the cops fault.

I think there’s more than enough blame to go around. The hospital is primarily to blame, of course.

But the police are not obliged to remove a person in obvious need of medical help because a hospital demands it.

Why would you get medical help for someone an ER had just said didn't need help? Sure, they don't look good but ERs are for emergencies, not simple ill health. They are not obligated to treat a chronic problem no matter how severe.

May be the hospital threw her out when they shouldn't have, but she was complaining of breathing (yet was smoking!!) and died of a major stroke--those usually aren't related. I wouldn't be surprised if this is simply a coincidence, or that she worked herself into a tizzy provoking a weak spot to rupture. Or maybe she had the yuck but not badly enough to warrant admission--and it threw a clot into her brain. Note that the reporting on this is going to be very one-sided because the hospital is not permitted to rebut the story.

(Which is something I would like to see changed--I believe privacy laws should be automatically waived to the minimum extent needed to rebut false claims about the protected information. By making the false claim you chose to make it not private.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That does not apply to vast majority of countries. And most of those whose police are not routinely armed are tiny, like Nauru or Tuvalu.

More notable to me is that all but two of these countries are islands.

I am quite surprised at Botswana--there are a lot of pretty messed up places nearby, I'm surprised they don't have more trouble with crime coming in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For the most part, police are not going out of their way to catch drug users, white or black. I think they catch most people on possession charges incidentally. Commission of another crime, like theft or mugging, or if you are stupid enough to light up in public while e.g. walking down the steps in a MARTA station:
Man stopped for marijuana, shot and killed after pulling gun on MARTA police, chief says

That's my impression, also--you'll only get busted for using if you wander into their sights.

Again, I think ACLU is exaggerating the racial discrepancy. Or do they/you have some evidence for the 10x number? And any discrepancy that exists is probably explained due to socioeconomic and behavioral factors, not racial ones.

I can easily believe the 10x number--but it's socioeconomic.

The reality is that drugs themselves generally aren't the issue, but rather the crime associated with their acquisition (both the trade itself and affording it.) This will greatly amplify the socioeconomic difference--if you're middle class or above and thus can afford your drugs your chance of getting caught is tiny unless you do something stupid like impaired driving. However, if you have to turn to crime to afford your drugs the police will be after you for the other crime and will bust you for possession if you have drugs on you when they catch you. The police normally charge everything they can--gives the prosecutor more room to negotiate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Derek, anyone can make a mistake and try to get into the wrong vehicle. I've done it myself. Hell, it used to be that sometimes keys of one car worked in another of the same make and year.

There is zero indication that there was any ill intent on the part of the person who made the error, no matter what their age.

Police obviously over reacted and panicked and killed someone. THAT is why police should be unarmed.

Yup. I've never actually tried to get into the wrong car but I have gotten rather annoyed at my car for chirping but not unlocking. It was dark enough I didn't see the interior was wrong and my car was indeed chirping and unlocking--behind me. It wasn't even exactly the same car, but aerodynamics have driven cars to be remarkably similar. I wouldn't have made that particular mistake in daylight, but many, many a time I've been parked near other white (living in the desert there are a lot of white cars) Corollas and had to look for more details to see which one was mine.

 

[Toni]

Actually I think this is more the hospital's fault than the cops fault.

I think there’s more than enough blame to go around. The hospital is primarily to blame, of course.

But the police are not obliged to remove a person in obvious need of medical help because a hospital demands it.

Why would you get medical help for someone an ER had just said didn't need help? Sure, they don't look good but ERs are for emergencies, not simple ill health. They are not obligated to treat a chronic problem no matter how severe.

May be the hospital threw her out when they shouldn't have, but she was complaining of breathing (yet was smoking!!) and died of a major stroke--those usually aren't related. I wouldn't be surprised if this is simply a coincidence, or that she worked herself into a tizzy provoking a weak spot to rupture. Or maybe she had the yuck but not badly enough to warrant admission--and it threw a clot into her brain. Note that the reporting on this is going to be very one-sided because the hospital is not permitted to rebut the story.

(Which is something I would like to see changed--I believe privacy laws should be automatically waived to the minimum extent needed to rebut false claims about the protected information. By making the false claim you chose to make it not private.)

It is unusual for a stroke to happen with no forewarning,

The ER might not have thought they were the right place to provide the care she needed but obviously she was in imminent need of medical help. At the very least, they could have sent her to internal medicine. The ER made an error and it cost someone her life. This does happen but in this case, the error is getting a lot of attention.

People do not have strokes because they are emotionally distressed. Or extremely emotionally stressed.

Wait: was she black? Must have been excited delirium. Isn’t that what you like to say?

 

[Gospel]

Again, I think ACLU is exaggerating the racial discrepancy. Or do they/you have some evidence for the 10x number? And any discrepancy that exists is probably explained due to socioeconomic and behavioral factors, not racial ones.

Considering that the White and Black population equally uses and distributes illegal drugs; it's clear that socioeconomic and behavioral factors just happens to work disproportionately against black people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯