Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Elixir]

most people in a bad way got themselves in the situation.

I am not “in a bad way” but take no credit/blame for that. Conversely, when I have been in a bad way, I took no credit/blame for that either. Regardless of our situations, they will change, and the illusion of responsibility for the changes is just that. Even if we are critical actors in the change, we are not in control. We can make choices in the hope that they will get us closer to something we want, but we are still slaves to that we want.

 

[Derec]

 List of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers
The champion in killing rate is Venezuela, and I've yet to see any right-winger hold that nation's police killings against it.

Damn! Venezuela's rate is 64x higher than US. Puts things in perspective.
But yes, we know that US has a much higher rate than say European countries. Btw., the two top countries in Europe are Luxembourg and Malta. Because of their small population size, even one killing gives a high per capita rate. Another year, they might have 0 and drop to the bottom of the list. Moral: beware of small sample/success sizes.

Not just “a few bad apples”: U.S. police kill civilians at much higher rates than other countries | Prison Policy Initiative

The first problem with this article is the headline. It implies that every police shooting is bad. In reality almost all police shootings are justified, vast majority involve armed perps and most are armed with firearms.

There is no question that the number of police killings of civilians in the U.S. – who are disproportionately Black and other people of color –

Another problem. "Disproportionate" does not mean there is anything untoward, even if the article very strongly implies that.
Blacks also have a ~5x higher homicide rate than whites, and crime rates for most other crimes are higher among blacks as well.
Therefore, it is to be expected that the rate of police shootings will be higher as well, without any bias on part of the police.

are the result of policies and practices that enable and even encourage police violence.

It is the job of police to enforce the law, which often entails the use of physical force aka violence. Again, that is not indication of police doing anything wrong.

Compared to police in other wealthy democracies, American police kill civilians at incredibly high rates:

A lot of that has to do with high prevalence of firearms. Another reason is homicide rates, which are unevenly distributed in the population.

White homicide rate is still higher than most of Europe, but much less so than US homicide rate overall.
To ignore that demographic fact and pretend police shoot more blacks per capita for shits and giggles is highly irresponsible.

Blacks are incarcerated for drug offenses at a rate 10 times greater than that of whites, despite the fact that blacks and whites use drugs at roughly the same rates.

How do they know that?
And even if true (or even if the difference is <10x) did they account for confounding variables, such as which drugs, where the drugs are purchased/consumed etc. that can account for differences in chances of arrest other than racial bias.

 

[Toni]

We cannot allow police officers to be armed. This is horrific.

So only criminals should be armed then? And what should police do when they encounter armed perps?
Vast majority of police shootings involve armed perps, and most police shootings (at least 57% in 2022) involve perps armed with firearms.
View attachment 42377

It is getting harder and harder to distinguish between the police and the criminals.

We need to get rid of guns. Full stop.

 

[Derec]

The FBI has launched a federal civil rights investigation into the alleged beating and waterboarding torture of two Black men, one of whom miraculously survived a bullet to the face, by sheriff deputies in a drug raid in Mississippi.

"Miraculously" is an overstatement here. Many people survive gunshots to the head, and some even survive gunshots that pierce brain tissue (like Gabby Giffords). I do not think the trajectory here involved the brain.

“The FBI will conduct the investigation in a fair, thorough, and impartial manner,” said the statement on Wednesday. “As this is an ongoing investigation, we are not able to comment further at this time.”

Hopefully. Last thing we need is feds railroading the cops if they did nothing wrong.

At a news conference on Wednesday, civil rights attorney Malik Shabazz said six white deputies raided the home without warning or warrants. They forced their way in and immediately subdued and handcuffed the men, he said.

The article identifies Shabazz as a "civil rights attorney". In reality, Paris Lewis (that's his real name) is a notorious black nationalist, racist and antisemite. He also is former head of the New Black Panther Party.
Not exactly a reliable source, and it raises the question of why Jenkins chose him as his lawyer. After all, ambulance chasing lawyers area dime a dozen.

It is also concerning that this article only gives Jenkins' side of the story before derailing into talking about Kamala Harris and Tyre Nichols.

 

[Derec]

It is getting harder and harder to distinguish between the police and the criminals.

That's BS. Unjustified police shootings are a very small percentage of all police shootings. And police shootings are a very small fraction (<10^-4) of all police-civilian interactions.
You have been victim of anti-police propaganda.

We need to get rid of guns. Full stop.

That's as unrealistic as it is absolutist.

 

[laughing dog]

It is getting harder and harder to distinguish between the police and the criminals.

That's BS. Unjustified police shootings are a very small percentage of all police shootings.

And police shootings are a very small fraction (<10^-4) of all police-civilian interactions.
You have been victim of anti-police propaganda.

Handwaved apologia which ignores the basic fact there should be no unjustified police shootings. You are the victim of pro-police propaganda.

We need to get rid of guns. Full stop.

That's as unrealistic as it is absolutist.

It is unrealistic. But it is indicative of the gun problem in the USA.

 

[Oleg]

Handwaved apologia which ignores the basic fact there should be no unjustified police shootings.

No one disagrees that there should be no unjustified police killings. Like no one disagrees that no teacher should sexually abuse children at school. But it still happens. The answer isn't to abolish police or public schools.

 

[laughing dog]

Handwaved apologia which ignores the basic fact there should be no unjustified police shootings.

No one disagrees that there should be no unjustified police killings. Like no one disagrees that no teacher should sexually abuse children at school. But it still happens. The answer isn't to abolish police or public schools.

Why are you babbling about abolishing the police? No one here was discussing that at all.

 

[Oleg]

Handwaved apologia which ignores the basic fact there should be no unjustified police shootings.

No one disagrees that there should be no unjustified police killings. Like no one disagrees that no teacher should sexually abuse children at school. But it still happens. The answer isn't to abolish police or public schools.

Why are you babbling about abolishing the police? No one here was discussing that at all.

Who here is okay with “unjustified” police killing?

 

[Elixir]

Handwaved apologia which ignores the basic fact there should be no unjustified police shootings.

No one disagrees that there should be no unjustified police killings. Like no one disagrees that no teacher should sexually abuse children at school. But it still happens. The answer isn't to abolish police or public schools.

Why are you babbling about abolishing the police? No one here was discussing that at all.

Why not? We got enough guns laying around to handle any trouble those badguys might try to start. Police are just in the way. If it wasn't for them, nobody would fucking DARE be a criminal!
And we got rid of schools already during the pandemic (thanks Donald!). No more indoctrination on the War of Northern Aggression or shit like that. And our kids don't need to get near no lib'rul brats and get funny ideas that they're one of them hermeteorites or something.

 

[Toni]

It is getting harder and harder to distinguish between the police and the criminals.

That's BS. Unjustified police shootings are a very small percentage of all police shootings. And police shootings are a very small fraction (<10^-4) of all police-civilian interactions.
You have been victim of anti-police propaganda.

We need to get rid of guns. Full stop.

That's as unrealistic as it is absolutist.

The fact is that after the fact, we seek to justify police shootings that seem to be quite avoidable in other countries.

While we claim to declare most police homicides justified, we claim we are using the meaning: shown to be right or reasonable. In fact we tend to declare or make righteous most police shootings as though they are righteous in the sight of God.

We think of reasons to declare police violence as justified because it is too horrifying, and too terrifying to consider that we are paying people to serve and protect but actually give them full license to kill so long as it isn't someone who looks too much like us.

We have to stop. Other nations do not have this problem. If people want to make the argument that the US deserves this level of violence as a direct consequence of the Iran Contra debacle and the 'war on drugs' then it is hard to disagree on a certain level.

But this HAS to stop. We are paying far too high a price in deaths and lives destroyed by violence. Police participation in that violence does not lessen the violence. Particularly when so many people are willing to turn themselves into pretzels to justify whatever horrific behavior is done, so long as the perps are wearing the right uniform and a badge.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I responded earlier but perhaps a better response would be: Maybe it's time to take the funds used by police departments for paramilitary training and start using them for mental health care. It will take a lot more than just that but how about we start there?

That ain't gonna happen. If we acknowledge that mental illness plays a role in crime and poverty, we can't blame capitalism.

That makes no sense.

The narrative in the PNW is that people are “unhoused” because rent is too high. It’s bullshit but noticing that people may be the cause of their own troubles is verboten.

That's like saying that it is verboten to recognize that crime victims may have enabled the crimes that they suffer by bad decisions that they had made.

Oh, my mistake. Yes, it's Amazon. Amazon is the reason for the "unhoused" crisis.

Kshama Sawant wants to tax Amazon so people can afford to live in Seattle. Can she pull it off?

New tax proposal by Seattle city council member would affect about 825 companies and is expected to raise $300m each year

www.theguardian.com

Another post that makes no sense.

Your failure to see sense doesn't mean there is none.

How about you share some of your wisdom. Exactly how is a mentally I’ll man dead in a walk in freezer in a jail a better outcome than… anything other than the man dead?

And how does Amazon cause homelessness?? This is simply another proposal to eat the rich.

 

[Gospel]

"Bigger gun wins" naivete. It's more like "whoever shoots first wins".

And yet some on here want a rule where police are not allowed to shoot unless the perp fires first.

Policing is risky. Similar to our military; you ought know what you signed up for. Prosecutors and judges is where most of our issues rest regarding keeping violent pieces of shit off our streets. Our officers should be doing their best to bring suspects in alive. For the most part (ignoring the disparity between races over centuries) they have been doing just that. The issue is; over a length of time, we've (America) has had judges and state prosecutors not doing their part.

Edit: now after seeing a revolving door effect in the courts our police force is demoralized. ( again setting aside my gripes over the disparity between races)

 

[Toni]

I responded earlier but perhaps a better response would be: Maybe it's time to take the funds used by police departments for paramilitary training and start using them for mental health care. It will take a lot more than just that but how about we start there?

That ain't gonna happen. If we acknowledge that mental illness plays a role in crime and poverty, we can't blame capitalism.

That makes no sense.

The narrative in the PNW is that people are “unhoused” because rent is too high. It’s bullshit but noticing that people may be the cause of their own troubles is verboten.

That's like saying that it is verboten to recognize that crime victims may have enabled the crimes that they suffer by bad decisions that they had made.

Oh, my mistake. Yes, it's Amazon. Amazon is the reason for the "unhoused" crisis.

Kshama Sawant wants to tax Amazon so people can afford to live in Seattle. Can she pull it off?

New tax proposal by Seattle city council member would affect about 825 companies and is expected to raise $300m each year

www.theguardian.com

Another post that makes no sense.

Your failure to see sense doesn't mean there is none.

How about you share some of your wisdom. Exactly how is a mentally I’ll man dead in a walk in freezer in a jail a better outcome than… anything other than the man dead?

And how does Amazon cause homelessness?? This is simply another proposal to eat the rich.

?

I have no idea who you are responding to but it was not to anything I wrote.

I am not in favor of cannibalism. It's really bad for your health. Besides, it isn't the rich who have any thing to worry about from the poor. Except where maybe lurks some tiny bit of conscience buried deep inside them.

And that's actually hypocritical of me to even write. By most of the world's standards, I am rich.

 

[Gospel]

And even if true (or even if the difference is <10x) did they account for confounding variables, such as which drugs, where the drugs are purchased/consumed etc. that can account for differences in chances of arrest other than racial bias.

You'd think after around 200 something years of policing, they'd have found a way to catch white people. I guess they aren't trying hard enough? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Shadowy Man]

Handwaved apologia which ignores the basic fact there should be no unjustified police shootings.

No one disagrees that there should be no unjustified police killings. Like no one disagrees that no teacher should sexually abuse children at school. But it still happens. The answer isn't to abolish police or public schools.

So, what policy changes would you recommend to reduce or eliminate unjustified police shootings? You claim to be not ok with them so how would you mitigate them?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your failure to see sense doesn't mean there is none.

The irony of your handwaved claim is overwhelming. The fact you may find sense in something does not mean there is some.

I realize that this is difficult concept for the reasoning-impaired, but financing a policy via a specific tax on _____ does not necessarily mean that _____ is being held to blame for anything.

If ____ is not responsible then such a tax is simply an unjustified eat-the-rich.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not clear from the video, but police claim he went for one of their guns. That presents a lethal thread and would justify lethal force.
The only question is, is what police saying true?

I think it's more likely he panicked and was flailing at them, not specifically going for a gun. They wouldn't have known that, though.

 

[Toni]

"Bigger gun wins" naivete. It's more like "whoever shoots first wins".

And yet some on here want a rule where police are not allowed to shoot unless the perp fires first.

Policing is risky. Similar to our military; you ought know what you signed up for. Prosecutors and judges is where most of our issues rest regarding keeping violent pieces of shit off our streets. Our officers should be doing their best to bring suspects in alive. For the most part (ignoring the disparity between races over centuries) they have been doing just that. The issue is; over a length of time, we've (America) has had judges and state prosecutors not doing their part.

Edit: now after seeing a revolving door effect in the courts our police force is demoralized. ( again setting aside my gripes over the disparity between races)

OK: That's the problem: Far too many people believe that policing is risky similar to being in the military. Being a police officer is NOT like being in the military. Police are not military.

Police exist to protect and serve the population.

Military exist to serve and defend, sometimes by being on the offense.

In the military, one would expect that one could be called to a war zone where there is active threat from another military force from a different country. You should fully expect to have to fire your weapon and be fired upon.

Police should not expect to fire a weapon. I think that in most situations, police should not be armed, and certainly not with guns, possibly not with tasers which are lethal far too often. For their own safety: then that panicked teenager or homeless drunk couldn't be going for their weapon and need to be shot to death. Lots of lives saved!

The absolute fact is that police are not routinely armed in many other countries. NO other country has the same problem with police killing suspects or suspect deaths while in custody or with gun violence. NONE. It isn't even close.

 

[Gospel]

OK: That's the problem: Far too many people believe that policing is risky similar to being in the military. Being a police officer is NOT like being in the military. Police are not military.

The only thing I compared was "knowing what you signed up for". Do the police and Military both have that in common or not?

Edit: BTW yes policing is risky. Lots of dead bodies to prove it however I did not compare the risk to the military. The policing is risky comment was it's own statement that ended with a period.