Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Loren Pechtel]

There is no evidence the passanger was "brutalized" or that the takedown was merely due to him refusing to show id. From your own source:

The video starts in medias res and does not show the start of the confrontation. Also, why is it so hard to simply show id? Maybe the bitey passenger had warrants?

Why is it so hard to understand that cops aren't supposed to beat up anyone for no reason? They don't have that right. Why is is so hard to understand that cops are not everyone's ultimate absolute authority and can't do whatever they want to anyone without limits? Is it rocket science that a passenger not having an ID does not justify police doing any damn thing to that person?

As is usual with such videos we don't see the trigger.

However, I don't see any knees anywhere near a neck, this is simply a normal dogpile as that's the least harmful way to resolve such situations.

And just because the guy says he's driving for Lyft doesn't make it so--the police are going to look into the situation if the guy doesn't have a license.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Always automatically side with power. Never, ever err on the side of the powerless. It's a sickness.

If I'm going to err, I will err on the side of the powerless, never on the side of powerful people with badges, weapons, the support of weak ass authoritarian followers, and of course, prejudice and corruption.

Regardless of how this particular situation plays out, you are on the wrong side of history.

And you're going to err frequently with this approach. In practice in basically free societies power is usually being applied correctly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am not a lawyer, so I do not know the exact law here. Do you?

Passengers are not required to show ID.

Road Rules: Do car passengers have to show police their ID?

But how about other situations? Can an officer ask a passenger for ID when it appears there is no reason for the request? In the U.S. Court of Appeals case Stufflebeam v. Harris, the court concluded that an officer can request ID from a passenger, but if the officer has no reason to contact the passenger regarding any sort of investigation, the passenger is not required to provide identification.

Normally I would agree with you--but in this case the driver didn't have a license. That's a whole different situation. If he can't establish who he is it very well might be a stolen car.

 

[Angry Floof]

Always automatically side with power. Never, ever err on the side of the powerless. It's a sickness.

If I'm going to err, I will err on the side of the powerless, never on the side of powerful people with badges, weapons, the support of weak ass authoritarian followers, and of course, prejudice and corruption.

Regardless of how this particular situation plays out, you are on the wrong side of history.

And you're going to err frequently with this approach. In practice in basically free societies power is usually being applied correctly.

Bullshit. Policing does not make peaceful societies. Cooperation does. Police are supposed to be there for the small fraction of people who can't or won't cooperate with their fellow human beings. It's not because of police that millions upon millions of people drive safely on streets day after day. The tiny fraction of antisocial morons who purposely try to bring harm to others while driving are the only ones who need police interactions. The rest of us cooperate because we're not murderous psychopaths, not because we want to cause harm but stop ourselves because of fear of police.

If you're a regular driver of a vehicle on public roads, you don't get hit by cars every time you pull onto a highway. This is due to the cooperation of 99% of other drivers, not due to policing. There aren't enough police in the world to police millions of drivers into behaving themselves if they otherwise had no inclination to behave.

Interesting side note to this topic, though: one of the personality traits of right wing authoritarian follower mentality is a deep distrust of humans in general outside of the right wing in-group. They think everyone is as scared and reactive as they are but less "moral" and more "savage" or "sinful," and so fear mongering about outgroups is more effective and "law and order" messaging resonates deeply. They literally can't imagine a peaceful world without punitive authority figures, the more the better.

Another related side note: Making right wing authoritarian followers feel safe also makes them more liberal.

Stop being so scared of outgroups, Loren. You're contributing to a society that unjustly harms people because of it. You're a cement block on the feet of humanity in terms of equality and justice.

Also, you have erred and will continue to err on many a police brutality instance, not just in facts but in your inhumane views.

 

[southernhybrid]

Passengers are not required to show ID.

Road Rules: Do car passengers have to show police their ID?

Normally I would agree with you--but in this case the driver didn't have a license. That's a whole different situation. If he can't establish who he is it very well might be a stolen car.

What does that have to do with the passengers?

I can tell you a real life story about something that happened in my county, which nearly borders on Clayton County, Ga. A couple of years ago, as we were on our way to a local eatery, we watched the police try to pull a car over, but the car didn't stop until it was right in front of the restaurant. There were four young, nice looking black men inside the car. The excuse for the pullover was a busted tail light. Hmmmm, how many times have we heard that one. The police insisted that each passenger show them ID.

Meanwhile, our favorite worker ran out to the car. She was the mother of the driver and she also has a degree in law enforcement. She asked what was going on and told the police that under the 4th amendment they had no right to demand ID from an innocent passenger in a car that was pulled for a tail light problem. The police officer told her that they had been told by their chief to ask for ID whenever they pull a car that has several young black men in it. Seriously. They actually told the woman that! And yet, some of the posters on this board continue to reject the fact that there is wide spread systemic racism in many American police departments. Luckily, there were no arrests in that case, and the young men were allowed to continue. The reason the driver didn't stop until he was in front of the restaurant is because he knew his mom would defend him. He was only 18 and I can imagine how fearful he was based on all the reports of how many police treat our black citizens unfairly.

The discrimination is so blatant that the police who I mentioned had the gall to tell the mom of the driver that they were taught to be suspicious of young black men. And, this happened in a city that is about 55% black. At least to my knowledge none of our local police have ever killed an innocent black man. I don't think that our local police are that bad, but I was very disappointed when I learned that they were purposely treating young black males so suspiciously. These young men were all innocent, came from good families and had no criminal backgrounds, yet they were treated with suspicion based on the color of their skin.

I know this happens frequently throughout the nation. It's wrong.

I want to add that I think when someone calls 911 about a person having a mental breakdown of some kind, that an ambulance should be called along with the police. EMTs are trained much better than cops when it comes to dealing with mental breakdowns. Perhaps if this was the case, we wouldn't see so many people who are suffering from an array of mental illnesses or drug addiction, which is an illness in itself, treated like criminals. It sickens me when I think of how we have failed our mentally ill folks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Always automatically side with power. Never, ever err on the side of the powerless. It's a sickness.

If I'm going to err, I will err on the side of the powerless, never on the side of powerful people with badges, weapons, the support of weak ass authoritarian followers, and of course, prejudice and corruption.

Regardless of how this particular situation plays out, you are on the wrong side of history.

And you're going to err frequently with this approach. In practice in basically free societies power is usually being applied correctly.

Bullshit. Policing does not make peaceful societies. Cooperation does. Police are supposed to be there for the small fraction of people who can't or won't cooperate with their fellow human beings. It's not because of police that millions upon millions of people drive safely on streets day after day. The tiny fraction of antisocial morons who purposely try to bring harm to others while driving are the only ones who need police interactions. The rest of us cooperate because we're not murderous psychopaths, not because we want to cause harm but stop ourselves because of fear of police.

But you need the police because of the antisocial types.

Stop being so scared of outgroups, Loren. You're contributing to a society that unjustly harms people because of it. You're a cement block on the feet of humanity in terms of equality and justice.

Also, you have erred and will continue to err on many a police brutality instance, not just in facts but in your inhumane views.

Quit thinking I'm scared of outgroups. You've already admitted that you're not evaluating the situations honestly.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Passengers are not required to show ID.

Road Rules: Do car passengers have to show police their ID?

Normally I would agree with you--but in this case the driver didn't have a license. That's a whole different situation. If he can't establish who he is it very well might be a stolen car.

What does that have to do with the passengers?

I can tell you a real life story about something that happened in my county, which nearly borders on Clayton County, Ga. A couple of years ago, as we were on our way to a local eatery, we watched the police try to pull a car over, but the car didn't stop until it was right in front of the restaurant. There were four young, nice looking black men inside the car. The excuse for the pullover was a busted tail light. Hmmmm, how many times have we heard that one. The police insisted that each passenger show them ID.

Meanwhile, our favorite worker ran out to the car. She was the mother of the driver and she also has a degree in law enforcement. She asked what was going on and told the police that under the 4th amendment they had no right to demand ID from an innocent passenger in a car that was pulled for a tail light problem. The police officer told her that they had been told by their chief to ask for ID whenever they pull a car that has several young black men in it. Seriously. They actually told the woman that! And yet, some of the posters on this board continue to reject the fact that there is wide spread systemic racism in many American police departments. Luckily, there were no arrests in that case, and the young men were allowed to continue. The reason the driver didn't stop until he was in front of the restaurant is because he knew his mom would defend him. He was only 18 and I can imagine how fearful he was based on all the reports of how many police treat our black citizens unfairly.

The discrimination is so blatant that the police who I mentioned had the gall to tell the mom of the driver that they were taught to be suspicious of young black men. And, this happened in a city that is about 55% black. At least to my knowledge none of our local police have ever killed an innocent black man. I don't think that our local police are that bad, but I was very disappointed when I learned that they were purposely treating young black males so suspiciously. These young men were all innocent, came from good families and had no criminal backgrounds, yet they were treated with suspicion based on the color of their skin.

I know this happens frequently throughout the nation. It's wrong.

I want to add that I think when someone calls 911 about a person having a mental breakdown of some kind, that an ambulance should be called along with the police. EMTs are trained much better than cops when it comes to dealing with mental breakdowns. Perhaps if this was the case, we wouldn't see so many people who are suffering from an array of mental illnesses or drug addiction, which is an illness in itself, treated like criminals. It sickens me when I think of how we have failed our mentally ill folks.

Totally agree with your post. Unfortunately, even EMTs aren't trained well in dealing with mentally ill. The Mental Health folks sometimes aren't trained well enough and there aren't nearly enough of them.

 

[southernhybrid]

I found a link from the AJC about the man who was severely beaten by the cops in Clayton County, Ga.

https://www.ajc.com/news/clayton-deputy-placed-on-leave-following-viral-video-of-arrest/EUZJKBRMPRBGFBNFJ24CJRUOSY/

A Clayton County deputy was placed on administrative leave after a viral video surfaced that appears to show him repeatedly punching a man during an arrest.

Clayton County Sheriff Victor Hill said he was made aware of the video Friday evening, and immediately launched an internal i

One of the deputies is seen repeatedly striking Walker on the ground while the other attempts to place him in handcuffs. It appears the two deputies are white and Walker is Black. The incident comes after months of protests across the nation calling for an end to police violence and racial injustice.

Attorney Shean Williams said Walker and his girlfriend were passengers in a ride-share that was stopped for not having a taillight. During the stop, deputies asked to see Walker’s driver’s license even though he was not the one behind the wheel, Williams said.

Both Uber and Lyft have denied that the traffic stop involved one of their drivers.

One of the cops claims that the arrested man bit him. I have no idea if that is true, but to me, after watching the very violent video, it looks like another case where the police were unable to control their anger. That's a big problem. We need police who are in better control of their emotions, imo. Even if the victim of the assault was suspected of a crime, the police shouldn't have beaten him so relentlessly. At least the police are on unpaid leave while the investigation is going on.

 

[Derec]

Always automatically side with power.

I do not think anybody does that. But you automatically assume police are in the wrong, even though the video does not show how the conflict started.

Never, ever err on the side of the powerless. It's a sickness.

I am on the side of what's right. If the deputies did wrong, they should be punished. If they didn't, they should not be. They should not be punished simply because they attempted to arrest somebody whom you consider "powerless".

If I'm going to err, I will err on the side of the powerless,

Usually those whom you call "powerless" are in the wrong. Police doesn't usually try to arrest people for no reason.

Regardless of how this particular situation plays out, you are on the wrong side of history.

I really hope not, or this country is in deep trouble!

 

[Derec]

I am not a lawyer, so I do not know the exact law here. Do you?

Passengers are not required to show ID.

Road Rules: Do car passengers have to show police their ID?

But how about other situations? Can an officer ask a passenger for ID when it appears there is no reason for the request? In the U.S. Court of Appeals case Stufflebeam v. Harris, the court concluded that an officer can request ID from a passenger, but if the officer has no reason to contact the passenger regarding any sort of investigation, the passenger is not required to provide identification.

So it depends, it is not a clear cut "Passengers are not required to show ID."

 

[southernhybrid]

There's an update on the Clayton County Georgia case. The officer who was put on leave, has been fired and there will be a criminal investigation into the matter. Perhaps justice will be served.

I will add that we need to require more education, and better pay to our police officers. They need to receive a lot more training about how to deal with people, including anger management. I'm not anti police. I want police to do their job, to protect and serve the people, not to over react when a suspect doesn't treat them respectfully or when a suspect resists arrest without any evidence of the suspect being armed. And, we don't need armed police to report minor, non violent crimes. Why not just ticket the individual and give them a court date. Selling cigarettes illegally so you can put on the table should not end in a death. *sigh*


But, I digress. I'll give you the AJC link if anyone is interested in reading the entire article.

https://www.ajc.com/news/clayton-deputy-placed-on-leave-following-viral-video-of-arrest/EUZJKBRMPRBGFBNFJ24CJRUOSY/

 

[Derec]

There's an update on the Clayton County Georgia case. The officer who was put on leave, has been fired and there will be a criminal investigation into the matter. Perhaps justice will be served.

Given that Victor Hill is a racist who is openly hostile to white deputies (he fired white deputies in 2005 for example), I suspect a railroading, not justice.

Meanwhile, Clayton County still hasn't found and arrested the men who did this.
Uber driver remains on ventilator 3 weeks after being shot in Clayton County

But Victor Hill can't blame whitey there, so it's low priority.

I want police to do their job, to protect and serve the people, not to over react when a suspect doesn't treat them respectfully or when a suspect resists arrest without any evidence of the suspect being armed.

Not being armed does not mean not dangerous. This guy bit the deputy. That's a serious escalation and physical force is certainly warranted to subdue the suspect.

And, we don't need armed police to report minor, non violent crimes. Why not just ticked the individual and give them a court date.

How do you give a ticket and a court date to somebody who refuses to identify themselves?

 

[ZiprHead]

From SoHy's link:

“Our client was asked for his ID and he responded that he did not have it and didn’t need it since he was not driving,” Williams told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “He inquired why he was being asked for his ID. That response obviously did not sit well with the officer.”

Williams said the deputy demanded that his client get out of the vehicle and attempted to arrest him. That’s when bystanders began recording the encounter.

 

[atrib]

Also, why is it so hard to simply show id? Maybe the bitey passenger had warrants?

Maybe some people don't want their names appearing on a police encounter report? The police have no legal right to force a passenger in a car to produce ID or verbally identify himself unless they have a reasonable suspicion that the passenger was engaged in an illegal act. This is true even in the so-called Stop-and-ID states.

 

[Angry Floof]

But you need the police because of the antisocial types.

We do NOT need police who brutalize citizens.

Quit thinking I'm scared of outgroups. You've already admitted that you're not evaluating the situations honestly.

I've admitted no such thing outside of your fantasy world. As far as fear of outgroups, self reflection is not a strong trait of right wing authoritarian followers.

 

[Angry Floof]

The Blue Lives Matter cult. Corrupt law enforcement and their zealot enablers believe the cops are imbued with God's authority to murder whoever they want.

The theology of police authority: the impact of Romans 13

A deep dive into the inner workings of a church in Kenosha, WI that espouses the scripture of Romans 13 to imbue police authority with the power of the word of God. The department's theology and misconduct is exposed by a former Kenosha police detective.

 

[Angry Floof]

I do not think anybody does that.

You do, and so do your ideological brethren here.

But you automatically assume police are in the wrong, even though the video does not show how the conflict started.

It's not an assumption of guilt. It's an assumption of accountability and harsh punishment for abuse of power, and also an opposition to vilifying victims of police corruption.

Learn to hold power accountable, Derec.

I am on the side of what's right.

How do you know? Every human is susceptible to all manner of cognitive and perceptive pitfalls. How do you mitigate those? What's your method? All I've seen from you is jumping to fellate the powerful regardless.

If the deputies did wrong, they should be punished. If they didn't, they should not be. They should not be punished simply because they attempted to arrest somebody whom you consider "powerless".

Just like ordinary unarmed, unbadged citizens should not be expected to comply with out of bounds cops. Anyway, you don't ever change your tune when cops are shown clearly to be in the wrong. There is no evidence against corrupt, murderous cops that could make you admit wrong and demand justice. At least I've never seen that happen. No matter how clear the case of abuse, no matter what the evidence, you never seem to mind at all, much less get angry at abuse of power against citizens by authority figures. I mean, you're free to show an example of you expressing justified outrage at abuse of power if you can. But meanwhile, I'll go with the preponderance of evidence that you have spent years here and thousands of posts raging in defense of murderer cops and vilifying their victims.

If I'm going to err, I will err on the side of the powerless,

Usually those whom you call "powerless" are in the wrong. Police doesn't usually try to arrest people for no reason.

What's "usually"? What's the limit in your mind for how many people police can try to arrest for no reason? Do you have a line that can be crossed in that regard? I know you've gone silent on your fandom of Trump himself, but you're still well entrenched in the ideology, and well, we've seen clearly that there is no limit for right wing authoritarians for what they will support their authority figures doing to people they demonize.

Regardless of how this particular situation plays out, you are on the wrong side of history.

I really hope not, or this country is in deep trouble!

It sure as fuck is in trouble, but no right wing authoritarian would be able to understand why. Any right winger a speck of conscience left in them have left the party and are all against your authority that is now in power.

 

[atrib]

Passengers are not required to show ID.

Road Rules: Do car passengers have to show police their ID?

So it depends, it is not a clear cut "Passengers are not required to show ID."

The law does not require anybody to carry ID on them in most public places, unless they are doing certain things like driving a car, which requires the person to carry appropriate ID while they are doing such things. Since the passengers in a car are not driving the car, they don't need to carry any form of ID. Since there is no legal requirement for a passenger to carry ID, there is no legal requirement for said passenger to produce ID when asked by the police, even if the officer's request is lawful.

In certain states, the law states that people must identify themselves to the police during a police encounter (not produce a physical ID), if the encounter is based on a reasonable, articulate suspicion that the person is or was engaged in some form of criminal activity. This obviously does not apply to situations where people are required to carry a valid ID in order to perform certain tasks like driving a car. While the police do not have to immediately notify the suspect of their valid, legal reason for detaining them and asking for ID, a valid, legal reason must exist for the officer's demand to be lawful. So far we have no evidence that for the case under discussion, such a lawful basis existed for the passenger(s) to self-identify. Moreover, there are innumerable videos on YouTube where police illegally detain and harass people who refuse to identify themselves, even when such encounters are not based on grounds that might be construed as reasonable suspicion. Some police are ignorant of the law, while some are just assholes who think they can get away with it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you need the police because of the antisocial types.

We do NOT need police who brutalize citizens.

Quit thinking I'm scared of outgroups. You've already admitted that you're not evaluating the situations honestly.

I've admitted no such thing outside of your fantasy world. As far as fear of outgroups, self reflection is not a strong trait of right wing authoritarian followers.

You have admitted to always going with the side without power if the situation isn't certain. You are taking it on faith that they are right.

 

[Angry Floof]

We do NOT need police who brutalize citizens.



I've admitted no such thing outside of your fantasy world. As far as fear of outgroups, self reflection is not a strong trait of right wing authoritarian followers.

You have admitted to always going with the side without power if the situation isn't certain. You are taking it on faith that they are right.

NO. It's about NOT taking a side conclusively and it IS about making sure that the person without power is protected from abuse of power! Why is this fucking rocket science? Looking immediately to vilify the victim and excuse the police is exactly the mentality that erodes protection from abuse for all of us.

NO society ever suffered from protecting the least among them, but many a society has fucking crumbled to dust by protecting its most powerful, with sometimes centuries of suffering on its way out.

Some people have to end up on the wrong side of their own hate cult before they can muster up a glimmer of understanding of this.

Fuck authority worshipers. Fucking mindless obedience machines handing their conscience over to abusive daddy figures and scared of getting beaten if they think for themselves. Fuck every god damn one of them.