Portland police halt minor traffic stops, citing disparity

[Patooka]

Who do you think is leaving the Portland Police Department, in general. The best cops or the worst cops?
Tom

If this question is directed at me, I have no idea, though this announcement suggests that at least some of those remaining have some respect for the rights of Portland's citizens, which speaks well to their character.

It was a general question.
But your response seems remarkably obtuse concerning human nature.

The best cops are also the cops who can most easily replace their jobs. Whether it's remaining in public service, but somewhere else, or going into private security, or just something else altogether. This isn't that hard to understand if you take off your blinders.
Tom

Making allowances so "the good ones" stay on the payroll creates more problems than it fixes.

A lot more.

 

[Metaphor]

No, blacks are more likely to be arrested for committing legal offenses. We don't know the actual rates of offense.

Okay then. Arrest data for non-traffic legal violations is also higher for blacks than for whites.

Do you have data to support your claim about the age profile by race?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/

The age disparity is even higher than I remembered. The median age for white people in the US is 44 and for black people it is 34. Astonishingly, the modal age for white people is 58 and for black people is 27!

Did you pull these reasons out of your ass or do have you surveyed the officers who have left?

I got them at the false dichotomy carnival in town.

I find your accusation extremely ironic. It is certainly possible I don't see my own prejudice. Please enlighten me about what you are talking about, so that I can see it.

The exact same data that you were willing to say was evidence for cop bias you refused to concede would be evidence for blacks violating traffic laws more often.

Of course I connected the dots. And, of course you cannot figure it out.

Trausti posted a link to a data source that showed the share by race of fatalities from traffic crashes. He used the fact that the share of black fatalities rose by 23% as an argument that maybe blacks were worse drivers. I pointed out that the share of black fatalities was much lower than the share of white people. And then I wrote If this data shows anything (emphasis new) it shows whites are worse drivers. Note the conditional.

In first response to your obtuseness, I added that I don't think that data shows anything. If anything, that data by itself, shows whites are worse driver.

Using additional data to make an argument does not rebut anything I observed about Traust's argument, because Trausti did not include any other data.

By "using additional data", do you mean "not ignoring that blacks are over-represented in fatalities compared to their background population"?

 

[laughing dog]

I got them at the false dichotomy carnival in town.

So, pulled right out of your ass.

The exact same data that you were willing to say was evidence for cop bias you refused to concede would be evidence for blacks violating traffic laws more often.

Your position conflates arrests with violations. That is false. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with US police - they do not stop every traffic violation they witness.
Your evidence is arrests/traffic stops which are not all of the violations.

By "using additional data", do you mean "not ignoring that blacks are over-represented in fatalities compared to their background population"?

Trausti did not make such an argument. I was showing Trausti's argument did not show what he claimed.

 

[TomC]

It was a general question.
But your response seems remarkably obtuse concerning human nature.

The best cops are also the cops who can most easily replace their jobs. Whether it's remaining in public service, but somewhere else, or going into private security, or just something else altogether. This isn't that hard to understand if you take off your blinders.
Tom

Making allowances so "the good ones" stay on the payroll creates more problems than it fixes.

A lot more.

Does it?

Portland is going to find out what happens when the police, over all, are disrespected and defunded.

Maybe Portland will become a better place to live. Maybe not. Time will tell. It has to improve a good deal from the current circumstances to be better than it was 2 years ago.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

So, pulled right out of your ass.

No.

Your position conflates arrests with violations. That is false. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with US police - they do not stop every traffic violation they witness.
Your evidence is arrests/traffic stops which are not all of the violations.

I do not conflate them. I am saying it is evidence of higher rate of violation.

Trausti did not make such an argument. I was showing Trausti's argument did not show what he claimed.

The assumption was implied--just as Portland relied on the contrast between the background population and the traffic violation population to make its case.

 

[Toni]

Unless you have evidence that blacks are more likely to engage in behavior that generates a traffic stop than people of other races, one would think "6% of Portlanders are Black, he said they account for 18% of traffic stops in the city. " would count as evidence.
LOL - just like that "stop discriminating" and the discrimination stops. Did it even cross your mind that the police officers may not be aware of their bias?

Did it even cross your mind that this might not be discrimination?

Expired plates and broken lights are things which will show a strong economic pattern. As almost always happens supposed "racism" is really socioeconomic.

Thank heavens we all know that being in a lower socioeconomic level has absolutely nothing to do with racism, systemic, historical or otherwise.

Given that police can and do pull up vehicle registration prior to pulling over a vehicle, why, exactly, do police pull over vehicles for expired tags or broken tail lights when they could much more safely send a ticket or warning or summons to the address associated with the vehicle registration? I'm serious. Depending on where they pull over a vehicle, it can create a much more dangerous situation than an expired tag, for instance. It's often police officers who are killed by another vehicle failing to change lanes.

It honestly does not make sense to me to pull over a vehicle for an expired tag, given the danger to the police officer.

 

[laughing dog]

No.

Whatever you need to save face.

I do not conflate them. I am saying it is evidence of higher rate of violation.

And you are wrong.

The assumption was implied--just as Portland relied on the contrast between the background population and the traffic violation population to make its case.

Nope. Portland made an explicit tie in- Trausti did not. You have no basis other than your ass for your assertion.

 

[Metaphor]

Whatever you need to save face.

No, laughing dog.

And you are wrong.

I am not wrong.

Nope. Portland made an explicit tie in- Trausti did not. You have no basis other than your ass for your assertion.

Yes, laughing dog. Almost all arguments have implicit premises. I'm sure you'll keep up your deliberate obtuseness though--when it suits you.

 

[laughing dog]

No, laughing dog.



I am not wrong.

Nope. Portland made an explicit tie in- Trausti did not. You have no basis other than your ass for your assertion.

Yes, laughing dog. Almost all arguments have implicit premises. I'm sure you'll keep up your deliberate obtuseness though--when it suits you.

Ah, so you give yourself permission to oull anything out if your ass via “implicit assumptions” in order to save face.

 

[Metaphor]

Ah, so you give yourself permission to oull anything out if your ass via “implicit assumptions” in order to save face.

No, laughing dog. I do not need to save face from your false dichotomies nor from you bad faith deliberate obtuseness.

Also, do you mind keeping your mind out of my ass? You're obsessed.

 

[laughing dog]

No, laughing dog.



I am not wrong.

Nope. Portland made an explicit tie in- Trausti did not. You have no basis other than your ass for your assertion.

Yes, laughing dog. Almost all arguments have implicit premises. I'm sure you'll keep up your deliberate obtuseness though--when it suits you.

Ah, so you give yourself permission to oull anything out if your ass via “implicit assumptions” in order to save face.

No, laughing dog. I do not need to save face from your false dichotomies nor from you bad faith deliberate obtuseness.

Right on schedule with the nasty accusations to deflect from the emptiness of your arguments.

 

[Metaphor]

Ah, so you give yourself permission to oull anything out if your ass via “implicit assumptions” in order to save face.

No, laughing dog. I do not need to save face from your false dichotomies nor from you bad faith deliberate obtuseness.

Right on schedule with the nasty accusations to deflect from the emptiness of your arguments.

It is an accusation, certainly. It is also true. You made a false dichotomy here when you suggested I either "pull these reasons out of your ass or do have you surveyed the officers who have left?" I reject your false dichotomy.

 

[bilby]

Unless you have evidence that blacks are more likely to engage in behavior that generates a traffic stop than people of other races, one would think "6% of Portlanders are Black, he said they account for 18% of traffic stops in the city. " would count as evidence.
LOL - just like that "stop discriminating" and the discrimination stops. Did it even cross your mind that the police officers may not be aware of their bias?

Did it even cross your mind that this might not be discrimination?

Expired plates and broken lights are things which will show a strong economic pattern. As almost always happens supposed "racism" is really socioeconomic.

OK.

If you say so.

Is it reasonable or equitable to discriminate against poor people?

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread." - Anatole France

 

[Gospel]

Unless you have evidence that blacks are more likely to engage in behavior that generates a traffic stop than people of other races, one would think "6% of Portlanders are Black, he said they account for 18% of traffic stops in the city. " would count as evidence.
LOL - just like that "stop discriminating" and the discrimination stops. Did it even cross your mind that the police officers may not be aware of their bias?

Did it even cross your mind that this might not be discrimination?

Expired plates and broken lights are things which will show a strong economic pattern. As almost always happens supposed "racism" is really socioeconomic.

OK.

If you say so.

Is it reasonable or equitable to discriminate against poor people?

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread." - Anatole France

Anatole France sounds like an idiot. It's more like

"The law will imprison the poor for stealing a penny, & takes a penny from the rich for stealing millions from the poor". - Gospel

 

[laughing dog]

Right on schedule with the nasty accusations to deflect from the emptiness of your arguments.

It is an accusation, certainly. It is also true. You made a false dichotomy here when you suggested I either "pull these reasons out of your ass or do have you surveyed the officers who have left?" I reject your false dichotomy.

I will go through this slowly in the hopes of minimizing your usual mistakes.

In post #11 you wrote

[
Yes - police officers are quitting because Portland has let the lunatics run the asylum. Police officers are quitting because the city of Portland treats them like shit. Police officers are quitting because of the relentless assaults on their character--like the assumption that they are biased against black people when handing out traffic violations.

As written, those are all claims of fact. There are no modifiers such as “I infer” or “It is possible” to indicate these are conjectures or deductions. There is no link to any other independent source (still no link to such). So, the only way to come up with those claims of fact would be to have spoken to the separating officers or to have access to a survey. Your response indicates you have neither. As claims of fact, you literally made them up (i.e. pulled them out of your ass).
But even if you claim those are reasonable “implications” from “low morale” and/or “burnout”, then you are guilty of extremely sloppy rhetoric (something for which you routinely castigate others) and overblown claims. “Low morale” is a wide ranging description as is “burnout”. You choose that rhetoric because it fits your ideological narrative without any regard for the facts or truth.

So, as usual, your nasty accusation had no basis in fact nor logic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unless you have evidence that blacks are more likely to engage in behavior that generates a traffic stop than people of other races, one would think "6% of Portlanders are Black, he said they account for 18% of traffic stops in the city. " would count as evidence.
LOL - just like that "stop discriminating" and the discrimination stops. Did it even cross your mind that the police officers may not be aware of their bias?

Did it even cross your mind that this might not be discrimination?

Expired plates and broken lights are things which will show a strong economic pattern. As almost always happens supposed "racism" is really socioeconomic.

And you aren't seeing the systemic part there?

 

[Gospel]

Black people have a "history" of suspecting racism in police actions because the police have a very long history of enforcing racism. This should be a no-shit moment for this country but it's not. It's reverse racism to some Americans and to others; socioeconomic. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Metaphor]

So, the only way to come up with those claims of fact would be to have spoken to the separating officers or to have access to a survey.

Incorrect. You are now already admitting your dichotomy was false by adding another 'option' - that of speaking to the officers who have left. I do not need to have spoken to any of them to have access to comments they have made in media or message boards, nor do I need to have surveyed them to make inferences.

I wonder, do you make inferences about why slaves ran away? Did you survey them?

Your response indicates you have neither. As claims of fact, you literally made them up (i.e. pulled them out of your ass).
But even if you claim those are reasonable “implications” from “low morale” and/or “burnout”, then you are guilty of extremely sloppy rhetoric (something for which you routinely castigate others) and overblown claims. “Low morale” is a wide ranging description as is “burnout”. You choose that rhetoric because it fits your ideological narrative without any regard for the facts or truth.

The fact that you are articulating yet another option that destroys your false dichotomy should embarrass you. I bet it doesn't though.

So, as usual, your nasty accusation had no basis in fact nor logic.

I can think of half a dozen alternative options in your false dichotomy, and you yourself have come up with two more in trying to 'rebut' me. It staggers me that you are teaching young minds and getting away with it.

 

[Metaphor]

Is it reasonable or equitable to discriminate against poor people?

In what sense would it be "discrimination"? It is a matter of fact that poor people will find it harder to comply with some traffic laws, but that doesn't make enforcing the law against those who don't comply "discrimination". Poor people who do comply will not be punished.

 

[Elixir]

Is it reasonable or equitable to discriminate against poor people?

In what sense would it be "discrimination"? It is a matter of fact that poor people will find it harder to comply with some traffic laws, but that doesn't make enforcing the law against those who don't comply "discrimination". Poor people who do comply will not be punished.

MWAHAHA!
If the goddam poor people can't afford to travel to work in legal fashion, they need to stay home and get a job online.
Get the fuck off our streets, and get to fucking work! It's not discrimination, it's economic physics.