Post-poll Brexit poll

[iolo]

The referendum wasn't about pleasing people, only about leaving the E.U. Theresa May will give them that. Half the population, possibly more, will be unhappy just because of that. And very few will really see any substantial improvement in their lives because of it. Many will suffer as a direct consequence. It's already started. And I doubt very much if the poorest among British people will have more jobs, or better paid jobs, just because Britain will have left the E.U. Some will, certainly, but most won't. And political parties don't seem to have any good answer for those left out. All you can expect is wages going down for the poorest and public services being reduced. The best that can happen is if you have Theresa. At least you'll know where you're going. And Labour won't be an alternative for quite some time now. You may have May for a while. At least it will be interesting to see what she does.
EB

There is nothig to suggest that wages in theselves would go down. Europe has its problems.Spain and Portugal cannot keep their budget deficits down, and are facing a fine (which I understand will be levied later). Italy has financial problems, Greece has still a lot of issues despite the bale outs. Why would the poorest be worse of if the UK restricts the migration of poorer workers. Public services have already been reduced. The UK has extra revenue from no longer paying the EU (net about 21 million per day). Some could also go to paying off the debts.

Because very many firms are in the UK because it allows them to work in the EU, and are now preparing to leave, because the UK will have little access to other markets and because farmers especially will be hugely worse off, particularly in not being able to hire cheap labour when the supermarkets are screwing them into the ground. If we get any money back - which is extremely dubious - it will, of course, go to the very rich. The naivety of the Brexit lot is utterly depressing. You think WE are in power here?

 

[bilby]

There is nothig to suggest that wages in theselves would go down. Europe has its problems.Spain and Portugal cannot keep their budget deficits down, and are facing a fine (which I understand will be levied later). Italy has financial problems, Greece has still a lot of issues despite the bale outs. Why would the poorest be worse of if the UK restricts the migration of poorer workers. Public services have already been reduced. The UK has extra revenue from no longer paying the EU (net about 21 million per day). Some could also go to paying off the debts.

Because very many firms are in the UK because it allows them to work in the EU, and are now preparing to leave, because the UK will have little access to other markets and because farmers especially will be hugely worse off, particularly in not being able to hire cheap labour when the supermarkets are screwing them into the ground. If we get any money back - which is extremely dubious - it will, of course, go to the very rich. The naivety of the Brexit lot is utterly depressing. You think WE are in power here?

If you press the patriotism button often enough, you can persuade people to support almost anything, no matter how vile or even self destructive. Just ask Josef Goebbels.

 

[angelo]

If I recall correctly, the Nazis came to power in a putsch. Rigged elections. It is correct though that if one tells a big enough lie often enough the sheeple will believe it.
Perfect example is the Australian recent election and the Labor party Mediscare campaign.

 

[whichphilosophy]

There is nothig to suggest that wages in theselves would go down. Europe has its problems.Spain and Portugal cannot keep their budget deficits down, and are facing a fine (which I understand will be levied later). Italy has financial problems, Greece has still a lot of issues despite the bale outs. Why would the poorest be worse of if the UK restricts the migration of poorer workers. Public services have already been reduced. The UK has extra revenue from no longer paying the EU (net about 21 million per day). Some could also go to paying off the debts.

Because very many firms are in the UK because it allows them to work in the EU, and are now preparing to leave, because the UK will have little access to other markets and because farmers especially will be hugely worse off, particularly in not being able to hire cheap labour when the supermarkets are screwing them into the ground. If we get any money back - which is extremely dubious - it will, of course, go to the very rich. The naivety of the Brexit lot is utterly depressing. You think WE are in power here?

This is a similar situation in Europe, though the French farmers will mobilize into riots if the are not getting a good deal.. Supermarkets are using milk and other products as a high profit item (over double what is paid in the gross price).

However here is one article almost a year ago in August 2015.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...armers-after-milk-price-protest-10456920.html

Supermarkets surrender to farmers after milk price protest

Morrisons said it would also launch a “milk for farmers” cheese, which would cost 34p more than its standard cheese
The entire supermarket sector caved into mounting pressure from farmers and activists yesterday as three more grocers said they would increase the amount they paid dairy farmers for milk. Lidl, Aldi and Morrisons’ decision follows Asda’s earlier example.

Aldi and Lidl said they would pay a minimum of 28p per litre for milk from Monday while Morrisons will pay at least 26p per litre. They all previously paid an average of 23.66p per litre. Late on Thursday evening, Asda said it will start paying 28p a litre after all three supermarkets after activists brought cows into stores and cleared shelves of milk.

However, even though the four supermarkets have increased how much they will pay, it is still below production cost of 30p a litre, according to the National Farmers’ Union, meaning many farmers could still be selling milk at a loss.

Milk prices at Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Waitrose and Marks & Spencer are independently set, based on UK production costs, so they will not pay less.

Also in August 2015
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33953963


When I checked prices on line milk is being sold for over £1.00 per Litre. So the gross profit is high. When I managed supermarkets a number of years ago, diary products were around 40% gross profit and were regarded as essential goods. This is a problem whether we are in the EU or not. That is to say they can afford to pay a farmer around 50p a litre and sell it for around 70 to 90p a litre to make a profit that is still higher than 40%. This is an essential product which is one of the few items the government must regulate

 

[jonatha]

If I recall correctly, the Nazis came to power in a putsch. Rigged elections. It is correct though that if one tells a big enough lie often enough the sheeple will believe it.
Perfect example is the Australian recent election and the Labor party Mediscare campaign.

The putsch failed.

Cite for rigged elections? (There was certainly manipulation of public opinion -e.g., the Reichstag fire - but we see that regularly in elections that we don't say are rigged.)

 

[angelo]

The actual votes counted are rigged in many banana rebublics today. Brainwashing the public with outrages claims like the Jews were to blame for all of the German problems at that time is not elections rigging?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The actual votes counted are rigged in many banana rebublics today. Brainwashing the public with outrages claims like the Jews were to blame for all of the German problems at that time is not elections rigging?

Well.. the amazing thing isn't how many are rigged. The amazing thing is how many aren't. People spend an inordinate amount of time being outraged of everything that is wrong they become blind to how much things are getting better. How many know that over the last 50 years the world has rapidly become richer, safer, less corrupt, more peaceful and more stable. And it's not just a little bit, or a marginal difference. This is a paradigm shift of massive proportions.

So perk up!

 

[jonatha]

The actual votes counted are rigged in many banana rebublics today. Brainwashing the public with outrages claims like the Jews were to blame for all of the German problems at that time is not elections rigging?

No.

It's the German equivalent of Fox News.

 

[whichphilosophy]

It would be good if this person became the leader of the UK but I doubt it will happen. He's extremely entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQjWV9Bhc0g

 

[whichphilosophy]

More bleating from the Europhilia camp who feel they are losing their security blanket of Eu membership.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-vo...e-lawyers-tell-064902054--business.html?nhp=1

The letter is the latest attempt by opponents of Brexit to slow the divorce process. Some "Leave" campaigners say there is a concerted attempt by the British elite to prevent an EU departure by entangling any process in political and legal challenges.

"Our legal opinion is that the referendum is advisory," the lawyers said in a letter dated July 9 that was signed by 1054 lawyers. Reuters has a copy of the letter.

There again the European Communities Act 1972 (c. 68) that took us into the EU was illegal anyway. The conservatives violated the convention of consulting the people by election or referendum on such a change. None of the pro EU group talk about that of course.

 

[DrZoidberg]

More bleating from the Europhilia camp who feel they are losing their security blanket of Eu membership.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-vo...e-lawyers-tell-064902054--business.html?nhp=1

The letter is the latest attempt by opponents of Brexit to slow the divorce process. Some "Leave" campaigners say there is a concerted attempt by the British elite to prevent an EU departure by entangling any process in political and legal challenges.

"Our legal opinion is that the referendum is advisory," the lawyers said in a letter dated July 9 that was signed by 1054 lawyers. Reuters has a copy of the letter.

There again the European Communities Act 1972 (c. 68) that took us into the EU was illegal anyway. The conservatives violated the convention of consulting the people by election or referendum on such a change. None of the pro EU group talk about that of course.

An advisory referendum is just that. When the UK was taken into the EU they did it legally. Just as legally as if the current leadership would keep Britain in.

 

[whichphilosophy]

More bleating from the Europhilia camp who feel they are losing their security blanket of Eu membership.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-vo...e-lawyers-tell-064902054--business.html?nhp=1

The letter is the latest attempt by opponents of Brexit to slow the divorce process. Some "Leave" campaigners say there is a concerted attempt by the British elite to prevent an EU departure by entangling any process in political and legal challenges.

"Our legal opinion is that the referendum is advisory," the lawyers said in a letter dated July 9 that was signed by 1054 lawyers. Reuters has a copy of the letter.

There again the European Communities Act 1972 (c. 68) that took us into the EU was illegal anyway. The conservatives violated the convention of consulting the people by election or referendum on such a change. None of the pro EU group talk about that of course.

An advisory referendum is just that. When the UK was taken into the EU they did it legally. Just as legally as if the current leadership would keep Britain in.

Effectively all law making is now made in the EU or where there is conflict only EU laws apply. Parliamentary acts and common law judgements are to this degree ineffective by way of EU law prevailing. For a major change like this the people were not consulted

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmeuleg/633/63304.htm

European Communities Act 1972 (UK) section 2/2
12. Section 2(1) provides:

All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; and the expression "enforceable EU right" and similar expressions shall be read as referring to one to which this sub-section applies.

The understanding of the people was that we were joining a common market for trade, not for government and there was no consultation or referendum on such a major issue because it is very likely a vote would have been against joining

 

[DrZoidberg]

An advisory referendum is just that. When the UK was taken into the EU they did it legally. Just as legally as if the current leadership would keep Britain in.

Effectively all law making is now made in the EU or where there is conflict only EU laws apply. Parliamentary acts and common law judgements are to this degree ineffective by way of EU law prevailing. For a major change like this the people were not consulted

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmeuleg/633/63304.htm

European Communities Act 1972 (UK) section 2/2
12. Section 2(1) provides:

All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; and the expression "enforceable EU right" and similar expressions shall be read as referring to one to which this sub-section applies.

The understanding of the people was that we were joining a common market for trade, not for government and there was no consultation or referendum on such a major issue because it is very likely a vote would have been against joining

The UK has a representative government. So I can't see how you've got any foot to stand on? The British parliament has ok'd it, therefore it is ok.

 

[angelo]

Is this new British PM more moderate or more extreme than Cameron?

 

[whichphilosophy]

Effectively all law making is now made in the EU or where there is conflict only EU laws apply. Parliamentary acts and common law judgements are to this degree ineffective by way of EU law prevailing. For a major change like this the people were not consulted

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmeuleg/633/63304.htm

European Communities Act 1972 (UK) section 2/2
12. Section 2(1) provides:

All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; and the expression "enforceable EU right" and similar expressions shall be read as referring to one to which this sub-section applies.

The understanding of the people was that we were joining a common market for trade, not for government and there was no consultation or referendum on such a major issue because it is very likely a vote would have been against joining

The UK has a representative government. So I can't see how you've got any foot to stand on? The British parliament has ok'd it, therefore it is ok.

If the UK left the Eu without a referendum there would have been an uproar and rightly so. This is a rarity which the people decide.
However the British people were not consulted regarding the give away of the UK to Europe. This was given away under the cloak and dagger of the previous concept the Common Market.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Is this new British PM more moderate or more extreme than Cameron?

Extreme or moderate, anything is an improvement over the last few limp sausage Tory (and Labour leaders). She was able to get the infamous hook thrown out of Britain and stated below that our Fuhrers in Brussels had a crazy interpretation of our Human rights laws.

Abu Qatada boards a plane for deportation to Jordan
On 7 July 2013, Abu Qatada, a radical cleric arrested in 2002, was deported to Jordan after a decade-long battle that had cost the nation £1.7 million in legal fees,[88] and numerous prior Home Secretaries had been unable to resolve.[89] The deportation was the result of a treaty negotiated by May in April 2013, under which Jordan agreed to give Qatada a fair trial, and to refrain from torturing him.[90]

May has frequently pointed to Qatada's deportation as a triumph, guaranteeing in September 2013 that "he will not be returning to the UK", and declaring in her 2016 leadership campaign announcement that she was told that she "couldn't deport Abu Qatada" but that she "flew to Jordan and negotiated the treaty that got him out of Britain for good".[91][92] The Qatada deportation also shaped May's views on the European Convention on Human Rights and European Court of Human Rights, saying that they had "moved the goalposts" and had a "crazy interpretation of our human rights laws", as a result, May has since campaigned against the institutions, saying that British withdrawal from them should be considered.[88]

I am sure she shall be decisive and similar to Maggie Thatcher she is very difficult to deal with. Hopefully she can lead the BREXIT without flip flopping on the way. Britain should still be pro Europe but not Pro EU.

In fairness to the labour leader he did a better job for getting Labour supporter to vote to stay than Cameron did, but I believe his job is not for re election.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this new British PM more moderate or more extreme than Cameron?

Extreme or moderate, anything is an improvement over the last few limp sausage Tory (and Labour leaders). She was able to get the infamous hook thrown out of Britain and stated below that our Fuhrers in Brussels had a crazy interpretation of our Human rights laws.

Abu Qatada boards a plane for deportation to Jordan
On 7 July 2013, Abu Qatada, a radical cleric arrested in 2002, was deported to Jordan after a decade-long battle that had cost the nation £1.7 million in legal fees,[88] and numerous prior Home Secretaries had been unable to resolve.[89] The deportation was the result of a treaty negotiated by May in April 2013, under which Jordan agreed to give Qatada a fair trial, and to refrain from torturing him.[90]

May has frequently pointed to Qatada's deportation as a triumph, guaranteeing in September 2013 that "he will not be returning to the UK", and declaring in her 2016 leadership campaign announcement that she was told that she "couldn't deport Abu Qatada" but that she "flew to Jordan and negotiated the treaty that got him out of Britain for good".[91][92] The Qatada deportation also shaped May's views on the European Convention on Human Rights and European Court of Human Rights, saying that they had "moved the goalposts" and had a "crazy interpretation of our human rights laws", as a result, May has since campaigned against the institutions, saying that British withdrawal from them should be considered.[88]

I am sure she shall be decisive and similar to Maggie Thatcher she is very difficult to deal with. Hopefully she can lead the BREXIT without flip flopping on the way. Britain should still be pro Europe but not Pro EU.

In fairness to the labour leader he did a better job for getting Labour supporter to vote to stay than Cameron did, but I believe his job is not for re election.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The UK has a representative government. So I can't see how you've got any foot to stand on? The British parliament has ok'd it, therefore it is ok.

If the UK left the Eu without a referendum there would have been an uproar and rightly so. This is a rarity which the people decide.
However the British people were not consulted regarding the give away of the UK to Europe. This was given away under the cloak and dagger of the previous concept the Common Market.

WTF are you on about? Cloak and Dagger implies this wasn't public knowledge. I'm sorry, but it was. If people gave a shit there would rightly have been an uproar. But their wasn't. Because people were, generally, fine with it. Are you aware of the concept "fourth estate"?

Also, most Brits who voted leave, did so on false premises. Most Brits thought the Brexit referendum was about immigration, and especially about not receiving more refugees. Johnson and Farage lied to them on what leaving the EU would entail. Now when that lie has been revealed, I'm not so sure most Brits still want to leave the EU.

I'm personally a big fan of representative democracy. I don't have any problems at all being represented by a well educated elite. I sure think it beats being represented by the, largely uneducated, hoi polloi. This referendum demonstrated why referendums, in general, are a bad idea.

Or as Richard Dawkins so eloquently expressed it:

How should I know [if we should leave the EU]? I don’t have a degree in economics. Or history. How dare you entrust such an important decision to ignoramuses like me?

https://richarddawkins.net/2016/06/...ay-on-our-eu-membership-and-that-includes-me/

 

[whichphilosophy]

If the UK left the Eu without a referendum there would have been an uproar and rightly so. This is a rarity which the people decide.
However the British people were not consulted regarding the give away of the UK to Europe. This was given away under the cloak and dagger of the previous concept the Common Market.

WTF are you on about? Cloak and Dagger implies this wasn't public knowledge. I'm sorry, but it was. If people gave a shit there would rightly have been an uproar. But their wasn't. Because people were, generally, fine with it. Are you aware of the concept "fourth estate"?

Also, most Brits who voted leave, did so on false premises. Most Brits thought the Brexit referendum was about immigration, and especially about not receiving more refugees. Johnson and Farage lied to them on what leaving the EU would entail. Now when that lie has been revealed, I'm not so sure most Brits still want to leave the EU.

I'm personally a big fan of representative democracy. I don't have any problems at all being represented by a well educated elite. I sure think it beats being represented by the, largely uneducated, hoi polloi. This referendum demonstrated why referendums, in general, are a bad idea.

Or as Richard Dawkins so eloquently expressed it:

How should I know [if we should leave the EU]? I don’t have a degree in economics. Or history. How dare you entrust such an important decision to ignoramuses like me?

https://richarddawkins.net/2016/06/...ay-on-our-eu-membership-and-that-includes-me/

It was about sovereignty and also about immigration (with no dramatic change on asylum policies) and our economy. Nothing has changed.

Are you suggesting voters have a degree in economics before they vote? Then there would still be those in favour and against. As the saying for every three economists there are 5 schools of thought. (I just made that phrase up but it's pretty true).

I believe a poll in the UK to ask who is pro Europe would probably show a range in the 90 per cent range but less are pro EU.

 

[DrZoidberg]

WTF are you on about? Cloak and Dagger implies this wasn't public knowledge. I'm sorry, but it was. If people gave a shit there would rightly have been an uproar. But their wasn't. Because people were, generally, fine with it. Are you aware of the concept "fourth estate"?

Also, most Brits who voted leave, did so on false premises. Most Brits thought the Brexit referendum was about immigration, and especially about not receiving more refugees. Johnson and Farage lied to them on what leaving the EU would entail. Now when that lie has been revealed, I'm not so sure most Brits still want to leave the EU.

I'm personally a big fan of representative democracy. I don't have any problems at all being represented by a well educated elite. I sure think it beats being represented by the, largely uneducated, hoi polloi. This referendum demonstrated why referendums, in general, are a bad idea.

Or as Richard Dawkins so eloquently expressed it:

How should I know [if we should leave the EU]? I don’t have a degree in economics. Or history. How dare you entrust such an important decision to ignoramuses like me?

https://richarddawkins.net/2016/06/...ay-on-our-eu-membership-and-that-includes-me/

It was about sovereignty and also about immigration (with no dramatic change on asylum policies) and our economy. Nothing has changed.

Are you suggesting voters have a degree in economics before they vote? Then there would still be those in favour and against. As the saying for every three economists there are 5 schools of thought. (I just made that phrase up but it's pretty true).

I believe a poll in the UK to ask who is pro Europe would probably show a range in the 90 per cent range but less are pro EU.

Gah... the British citizens are still subject to rule, regardless if they are under the rule of Brussels or London. They are no more free now. In what way is the average Brit any more sovereign outside, than inside the EU?

No, I think we should have party politics. I want for us to have elections every four or so years where we vote for a political party to represent all our interest in parliament. That's what want. To me calling a referendum is just politicians shirking their responsibilities. Which was Dawkins point.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

The sovereignty thing is a red herring. All Brexit does is take some pooled sovereignty away from the EU and puts it in the hands of Britain's wealthy, public-school-educated political elite in the Commons, and the unelected, out-of-touch House of Lords. The ordinary man on the street will see no difference at all. And anyway, from what I've seen and read of those who voted Leave, sovereignty had nothing much to do with any of their votes. By far the most important factor, as far as I have seen, was immigration, and the spike in racist incidents reported to police since the vote bears this out..