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Quantum uncertainty, and Schrodinger's cat

That is an argument you would have to take up with Feynman.
Ok, I'll give him a call tonight.

I stand by my statement that producing the cat would collapse the wave function so set the physical state of the cat.
Sure.

I also stand by my view that Unter- shows no sign of having a clue what the Copenhagen interpretation is addressing.
Maybe his point isn't about the Copenhagen interpretation or even about Schrödinger's cat thought experiment or even about QM. I agree with him that one cat cannot be dead and alive at the same time and this has nothing to do with QM. The fault may lie with the way people choose to phrase their understanding of QM.
EB
It has everything to do with QM. QM describes reality as it is rather than as we wish it to be or believe it to be. (see Feynman's earlier statement.)
 
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For example, I don't think that QM explicitly tells you that there is just one cat (in two incompatible states),
Right. QM explicitly tells you jack squat about what there is; it only tells you an algorithm for calculating the probability of an observation. Any further reasoning you try to apply, to infer from consideration of the steps in the QM algorithm to a conclusion about what there is, is not QM. It's interpretation of QM. The notion that if you won't believe in some metaphysical interpretation of what QM really means about what there really is then you have to throw out the single best supported scientific theory in history, is nonsense. All you have to do is admit to yourself you don't understand QM -- that it seems to work but you don't know why it works. And if you can do that then you're already one step ahead of all the people who think they do understand it.

In all the descriptions and explanations I have looked at, not one scientist ever insisted that, actually, there would be one cat in two incompatible states.
^^^ This ^^^. In particular, to whatever extent "Copenhagen Interpretation" is taken to mean Bohr's views, as opposed to Heisenberg's attempts at paraphrase, CI doesn't say Schrodinger's Cat exists in a quantum uncertain state until the box is opened and can thus be both alive and dead. Bohr argued against all that sort of talk. Rather than answering "Is the cat alive or dead before the box is opened?" with "Both" or "Neither" or "Definitely one or the other but we don't know which" or "In a superposition of states" or what have you, he'd have rejected the question itself as unscientific metaphysics. There's by definition no way to ask a question about the unobserved in terms of observations; and questions that can't be put in terms of observations are meaningless. Bohr was kind of into the whole Logical Positivism thing.
 
I must admit to some ignorance about quantum electrodynamics, but if a cat that is neither (a better word than 'both' I think) alive nor dead is a necessary outcome of the theory, then it would be hard to deny it without denying the whole theory.
It's not a necessary outcome of the theory. Feynman wrote an excellent and reasonably layman-accessible account, called "QED". He doesn't say it implies the cat is neither, or both; he says trying to figure out what's really going on "under the hood" of quantum weirdness is a fool's errand.

Also, keep in mind that "denying the whole theory" doesn't mean what it used to mean in the days of Kepler and Ptolemaic epicycles. Nowadays when you replace a well-established theory your new better theory also explains why the old theory you're "denying" is as excellent an approximation as it is.

As I understand, quantum electrodynamics is the most accurate scientific model of reality ever devised, in terms of the predictions it makes about empirically observable phenomena.
Which means if it's wrong then it's an excellent approximation. So was Newtonian mechanics. Also, keep in mind that we have another well-established scientific model of reality that has also been thoroughly tested to extreme levels of accuracy and that also passes every test with flying colors: General Relativity. And this only raises an issue with QM because the two theories contradict each other, so we know in advance that one of the most accurate scientific models of reality ever devised is wrong. So it perfectly well might be QM that's wrong.
 
With the Standard Interpretation, dead or alive doesn't really apply to the "cat" in the box.
Yes.

In the box is an indeterminate field of catness potential (maybe:rolleyes:).
You could say that, yes.

It's you who chooses the contents when you open the box.
Then that would be a whole new meaning of the word "choose" to me. I suddenly feels like I am choosing for grandma to be dead each time I open her box.

This is the sort of loose talk on the part of some scientists that gets people confused.

No. Opening the box is an interaction and somehow it allows you to discover the result of it. You don't even know how this interaction could somehow select the state, dead or alive, of the cat. You don't even know that it does at all. So you can say you choose to have the interaction (opening the box), but you don't choose the result of it.
EB
 
Feynman's remark doesn't apply here since we don't know what is the reality of the cat before opening the box. The contradiction in some descriptions of this situation is that of the description. It's not that of the reality of the situation.
EB

You seem to indicate that the multistate is just a matter of uncertainty. That is wrong. The quantum multistate is really all states at the same time.
I seem to indicate precisely the reverse. :D

Further, the multistate is all at the same time yes but the multistate is not a cat (even less "the cat"), which is the point. It's a multistate of probabilities (or indeed several states of probabilities superposed) as to what will be the state of the cat when the observer opens the box, i.e. it's not about the state of the cat before the box is opened.

Also, we don't even know if there's a cat at all before the box is opened.

Also, this is from the ventage point of the observer outside the box. So there is uncertainty about what the reality is inside the box, and it is reflected in the many conflicting interpretations of QM. The Standard Interpretation is just the one that says precisely don't try to guess what is inside the box because we just don't know before it's open.

It would also nonsensical to say that the multistate is now somehow inside the box (before the box is opened) since the multistate is really the probability, yes now, but of what will be found when the box is opened.
EB
 
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I also stand by my view that Unter- shows no sign of having a clue what the Copenhagen interpretation is addressing.
Maybe his point isn't about the Copenhagen interpretation or even about Schrödinger's cat thought experiment or even about QM. I agree with him that one cat cannot be dead and alive at the same time and this has nothing to do with QM. The fault may lie with the way people choose to phrase their understanding of QM.
EB
It has everything to do with QM. QM describes reality as it is rather than as we wish it to be or believe it to be. (see Feynman's earlier statement.)
QM describes the probability of various future states of the system. In the case of Schrödinger's cat before the box is opened, QM doesn't describe the current (or actual) state of any cat but the probabilities of the various states of the cat once the box is opened. So, yes, QM describes reality, but it doesn't describe it as a dead and alive cat. It doesn't even specify that the cat will be dead or will be alive. So I don't see any logical contradiction in QM there while I see the logical contradiction of saying that the cat is both dead and alive as some people do. And I don't see that the Feynman observation could refer to any logical contradiction. Rather, I think it referred to the paradox that QM contradicts our intuition that the cat is either dead or alive even before the box is opened. As Feynman couldn't have referred to the idea that QM implies that the cat is both dead and alive without being wrong himself so the reality described by QM and referred to by Feynman can only be that our intuition that the cat is either dead or alive even before the box is opened is wrong.

So it has nothing to do with QM but with the way some people express what they understand of it.
EB
 
There is a theory that it is gravity that collapses probabilistic waves, and the 'mechanism' of transition from quantum probability wave state to particle position and classical physics, relativity, etc.
 
I'm saying the specific claim that a cat can be both alive and dead is an empty claim.

Yes, that's what tipped me off.

Then you don't know what an empty claim is.

All you have to do is provide evidence of a cat that is both alive and dead and then it is no longer an empty claim.
 
A cat can either be alive or dead.

It cannot be both.

If anybody thinks differently provide the evidence of a cat that is both dead and alive.

You forgot another option... The cat is NEITHER dead nor alive.

1 year prior to your birth, were you dead or alive? 'Not defined' must be a possible answer.
 
A cat can either be alive or dead.

It cannot be both.

If anybody thinks differently provide the evidence of a cat that is both dead and alive.

You forgot another option... The cat is NEITHER dead nor alive.

1 year prior to your birth, were you dead or alive? 'Not defined' must be a possible answer.

That is the same thing as death.

When I die and my ashes are scattered to the wind I am the same thing I was before I was born.
 
skepticalbip said:
That is an argument you would have to take up with Feynman. I stand by my statement that producing the cat would collapse the wave function so set the physical state of the cat.
I have a few questions.

1. Are you saying that before opening the box, the cat's physical state was not determined? If not, what happens after the box is opened?
2. Would the experiment work in the same way if, instead of a cat, we put a chimp in the box?
3. What if it's an adult human being in the box? And a human newborn?
4. Would it work in the same way if it's a big box, with 100 adult humans in it?
 
skepticalbip said:
That is an argument you would have to take up with Feynman. I stand by my statement that producing the cat would collapse the wave function so set the physical state of the cat.
I have a few questions.

1. Are you saying that before opening the box, the cat's physical state was not determined? If not, what happens after the box is opened?
2. Would the experiment work in the same way if, instead of a cat, we put a chimp in the box?
3. What if it's an adult human being in the box? And a human newborn?
4. Would it work in the same way if it's a big box, with 100 adult humans in it?

How about we put an infrared camera in the box and the recording can't be viewed until after the box is open.

Will we see a dead and an alive cat randomly as we watch the recording? Will there be multiple recordings?
 
But we know from experiment,
If someone gives me a TV, computer, or something interesting and tells me that it uses non-classical mechanics to achieve its ends, I should just take their word for it, correct?
It seems unreasonable to throw out the single best supported scientific theory in history, simply because we don't like the un-testable and unobservable consequences that this theory has for reality.
Spacetime would react to the cat differently if it was moving around, or if it was completely still in the box. There is always an observer, except when a single particle is not yet coupled to a classical system (freely moving electron or photon prior to interaction with a larger system).

Then again, if spacetime is the ultimate arbiter, it could preserve both possible evolutions until the box is opened... just to fuck with you.
 
If the ''many worlds'' interpretation is correct, the cat is definitely alive in one universe and definitely dead in another universe, and the cat is inevery possible condition in a myriad of offshoot universes. Therefore the cat is literally in every possible state and condition simultaneously.
 
QM describes the probability of various future states of the system. In the case of Schrödinger's cat before the box is opened, QM doesn't describe the current (or actual) state of any cat but the probabilities of the various states of the cat once the box is opened. So, yes, QM describes reality, but it doesn't describe it as a dead and alive cat. It doesn't even specify that the cat will be dead or will be alive. So I don't see any logical contradiction in QM there while I see the logical contradiction of saying that the cat is both dead and alive as some people do. And I don't see that the Feynman observation could refer to any logical contradiction. Rather, I think it referred to the paradox that QM contradicts our intuition that the cat is either dead or alive even before the box is opened. As Feynman couldn't have referred to the idea that QM implies that the cat is both dead and alive without being wrong himself so the reality described by QM and referred to by Feynman can only be that our intuition that the cat is either dead or alive even before the box is opened is wrong.

So it has nothing to do with QM but with the way some people express what they understand of it.
EB


You wrote, "so the reality described by QM and referred to by Feynman can only be that our intuition that the cat is either dead or alive even before the box is opened is wrong."

Are you saying that quantum reality is like that or are you saying that all reality is like that?

If you are saying that this is how all reality is then that would mean that if you knew some body five years ago then that person today is neither dead nor alive unless you see him.

.
 
skepticalbip said:
That is an argument you would have to take up with Feynman. I stand by my statement that producing the cat would collapse the wave function so set the physical state of the cat.
I have a few questions.

1. Are you saying that before opening the box, the cat's physical state was not determined? If not, what happens after the box is opened?
2. Would the experiment work in the same way if, instead of a cat, we put a chimp in the box?
3. What if it's an adult human being in the box? And a human newborn?
4. Would it work in the same way if it's a big box, with 100 adult humans in it?

I do not think that just the act of opening the box can change the cat's physical state.

If you ever get straight answers to your these four questions and subsequent questions which you probably will ask, this matter should be clarified.

But of course getting straight answers on internet boards is not an easy matter.
 
If the ''many worlds'' interpretation is correct, the cat is definitely alive in one universe and definitely dead in another universe, and the cat is inevery possible condition in a myriad of offshoot universes. Therefore the cat is literally in every possible state and condition simultaneously.

Branches grow until trimmed.
 
I do not think that just the act of opening the box can change the cat's physical state.
You are right. Opening the box does not change the cat's physical state. Opening the box collapses the wave function so establishes the cat's physical state which was undefined before that.
 
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