Questions For Women

[DrZoidberg]

Coming from decades of being in open relationships sluty women being shamed and virginity being upheld as a virtue isn't something that comes from men. Women do that to each other. Women have capacity of much more sex than men do. The moment men stop being selfish and jealous and "share" their women, there's more sex for everybody.

When entering into the open/poly world men and women react along different lines.

The men who are jealous and have problems with it have very serious issues. They have something seriously wrong in the head. It's nearly always something weird and random. Some deep seated insecurity. If it was natural, then we'd expect to see some clear pattern. But it's all nuts. A quite common hang up is feelings of inadequecy. Which is cute. But doesn't explain why they would have a problem with his woman sleeping with another man. He's not going to become more adequate if they're monogamous. It's supremely irrational, ie just nuts. But, like I said, men's problems with open relationships are most often just bizarre.

Women are the ones who call each other sluts and shame other women for sleeping around. If they have a problem with open relationships it's usually because they're genuinely emotionally monogamous. They need to be in love with the men they sleep with and only have capacity to love one man at a time. I say usually. Because a lot of women of course are into open relationships. More women than men. And are cool with it. Men typically struggle more in open relationships than women.

My take away from my experiences with this world is that shaming women for their sexuality is what women do to each other (perhaps something innate) and something men have to be taught to do.

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

Just my two cents.

Always good to get your two cents on what women think and feel and why they do what they do. Not sure how women manage without such valuable male perspectives.

I particularly enjoyed the inherent sense of ownership sprinkled throughout that post.

I hope you mean, lack of it? Otherwise I'm a bit confused. Open relationships are above all else characterized by a lack of ownership. That's the whole point of them. Put in contrast with, the rest of society.

Me and my girlfriend now have no rules at all about who either of us are allowed to sleep with, and that's the way we both like it. Both of us realized this is how we want to live early in life and neither of us have ever had a serious monogamous relationship. Both of us find the sense of ownership of each others sexuality in the monogamous world a total turn off.

 

[Toni]

I particularly enjoyed the inherent sense of ownership sprinkled throughout that post.

I hope you mean, lack of it? Otherwise I'm a bit confused. Open relationships are above all else characterized by a lack of ownership. That's the whole point of them. Put in contrast with, the rest of society.

Me and my girlfriend now have no rules at all about who either of us are allowed to sleep with, and that's the way we both like it. Both of us realized this is how we want to live early in life and neither of us have ever had a serious monogamous relationship. Both of us find the sense of ownership of each others sexuality in the monogamous world a total turn off.

Cool you've found what works for you as a person and as a couple.

Weird that you extrapolate your preferences to the entire species.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I particularly enjoyed the inherent sense of ownership sprinkled throughout that post.

I hope you mean, lack of it? Otherwise I'm a bit confused. Open relationships are above all else characterized by a lack of ownership. That's the whole point of them. Put in contrast with, the rest of society.

Me and my girlfriend now have no rules at all about who either of us are allowed to sleep with, and that's the way we both like it. Both of us realized this is how we want to live early in life and neither of us have ever had a serious monogamous relationship. Both of us find the sense of ownership of each others sexuality in the monogamous world a total turn off.

Cool you've found what works for you as a person and as a couple.

Weird that you extrapolate your preferences to the entire species.

I was not aware of that I did. Perhaps you could explain how you think I did that?

 

[Toni]

Cool you've found what works for you as a person and as a couple.

Weird that you extrapolate your preferences to the entire species.

I was not aware of that I did. Perhaps you could explain how you think I did that?

Your post #131.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Cool you've found what works for you as a person and as a couple.

Weird that you extrapolate your preferences to the entire species.

I was not aware of that I did. Perhaps you could explain how you think I did that?

Your post #131.

You'll need to be more specific than that.

I suggest, if you feel that I've said something you find objectionable, make sure I've said what you think I said, before making a post. Emily Lake even managed to read into that same post that I'm claiming that people who give each other total freedom is somehow claiming ownership of each other. That's an impressive feat of malicious misreading.

It's like you and her have decided in advance what you think I'm likely to write, so you skip reading and jump straight to outrage. It doesn't lead to much of a meaningful conversation.

 

[Toni]

Your post #131.

You'll need to be more specific than that.

I suggest, if you feel that I've said something you find objectionable, make sure I've said what you think I said, before making a post. Emily Lake even managed to read into that same post that I'm claiming that people who give each other total freedom is somehow claiming ownership of each other. That's an impressive feat of malicious misreading.

It's like you and her have decided in advance what you think I'm likely to write, so you skip reading and jump straight to outrage. It doesn't lead to much of a meaningful conversation.

Where did I write that I found what you wrote to be objectionable? Weird, yes. I wrote that. Objectionable? I didn’t write or imply that!

As for generalizing your personal preferences to the general population, please see the last paragraph of your post #131.

 

[southernhybrid]

This thread is full of so many generalizations and stereotypes about women, that it's hard to know where to begin....

I'll start with this. Women call other women slutty? WTF are you talking about? I've never called another woman a slut. That's what men do. I have never cared what other women do in regards to their sex lives. That's none of my business, unless they ask me for advice.

And, Dr.Z, you have talked about having multiple partners as the norm in previous threads and posts. Maybe it's true in your subculture, but it doesn't work for most of us. I'm monogamous and so is my husband. We've been together for over 40 years and still enjoy getting it on. I hated casual sex when I gave it a very short try when I was in between marriages. It was awful, not satisfying in the least. For me, sex is symbolic of love, caring and affection. If I just want to get off, a sex toy or a hand and a bottle of PJUR works better than a meaningless night of sex.

Women don't need multiple partners. For one thing, women are very creative when it comes to sexual fantasy. We can fantasize when we are having sex or when we are simply pleasuring ourselves. In fact, there were two books written about 20 years ago about women's sexual fantasies. The one thing that men might not understand is that just because a woman fantasizes about having multiple partners, doesn't mean she actually wants to do that in real life. It's much easier and safer to have one faithful partner and a vivid imagination.

WAB asked, although humorously, how do we put up with men? It's not easy.

But we do need men for a few things. My man is my tech support guy, my cook, my yard man, my mechanic, and the person who opens jars when my pitiful little hands can't quite do the job. He also reaches the top shelf of the pantry for me. He's good for a lot of things, in addition to being a great lover. So, I am able to deal with his manliness in return for all the good things that he does for me.

Me? I do his laundry, and put up with his shit, which includes little bursts of anger, messiness, clutter, and procrastination, so it works for us. I"m not saying that women aren't capable of doing the things that my husband does for me, but I'm not good at tech, don't understand mechanical things and Jersey girls don't cut grass. Seriously. I see Southern women mowing their yards quite often, but not once have I ever known a Jersey girl to cut the grass. We're smarter than that. A good man is hard to find. I've found mine or is it a hard man is good to find. Oh never mind. They have drugs for that now. /partly humor

The thing is, it's not really a good idea to generalize about all men or all women, including when it comes to their sex lives. So, the OP never made sense to me. One woman's opinion doesn't equate with the opinions or habits of all women. So some women might enjoy wearing cruel shoes, but most of us probably don't. But, I'm sure that in most cases, women don't wear cruel shoes to please men.

 

[bigfield]

Men love slutty women??

I'd say only slutty men love slutty women.

What men aren't? What men aren't always trying to be a slut?

I tried it for a little while and it didn't really float my boat. I have been much happier in exclusive relationships. Meeting women and maintaining casual connections felt like a lot of work for little payoff, whereas a harmonious, monogamous relationship is very satisfying to me. I'm a shy introvert, and so are a lot of other men, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that they tend to feel the same way I do.

I totally understand that some men - like you - socialise somewhat effortlessly, enjoy the "thrill of the pursuit", and are willing to put a lot of time into maintaining a varied sex life. I'm also aware that some people think primitive man used to plant his seed in as many women as he could, which makes it seem like promiscuous men are living a more authentic form of masculinity.

As for "slutty" women, I really don't give a shit. I'm not evaluating women on their promiscuity, one way or the other.

 

[Emily Lake]

Men love slutty women??

I'd say only slutty men love slutty women.

What men aren't? What men aren't always trying to be a slut? If a man isn't a slut isn't it always only about a lack of ability to sleep around? I have never heard of anybody talking about it being a virtue for a man not sleeping around in any circumstance or context. The only comments are about men sleeping with women that other men are interested in, and that's the problem.

I feel like you've got a pretty narrow and confining view of both men and women. I find it pretty offensive, and I'm also offended on behalf of my spouse, my married friends, my parents, and the majority of people in loving long-term monogamous relationships.

I get that the open relationship thing works for you, but I think you err in trying to frame that as normal and desirable for everyone.

 

[Emily Lake]

I was not aware of that I did. Perhaps you could explain how you think I did that?

Coming from decades of being in open relationships sluty women being shamed and virginity being upheld as a virtue isn't something that comes from men. Women do that to each other. Women have capacity of much more sex than men do. The moment men stop being selfish and jealous and "share" their women, there's more sex for everybody.

When entering into the open/poly world men and women react along different lines.

The men who are jealous and have problems with it have very serious issues. They have something seriously wrong in the head. It's nearly always something weird and random. Some deep seated insecurity. If it was natural, then we'd expect to see some clear pattern. But it's all nuts. A quite common hang up is feelings of inadequecy. Which is cute. But doesn't explain why they would have a problem with his woman sleeping with another man. He's not going to become more adequate if they're monogamous. It's supremely irrational, ie just nuts. But, like I said, men's problems with open relationships are most often just bizarre.

Women are the ones who call each other sluts and shame other women for sleeping around. If they have a problem with open relationships it's usually because they're genuinely emotionally monogamous. They need to be in love with the men they sleep with and only have capacity to love one man at a time. I say usually. Because a lot of women of course are into open relationships. More women than men. And are cool with it. Men typically struggle more in open relationships than women.

My take away from my experiences with this world is that shaming women for their sexuality is what women do to each other (perhaps something innate) and something men have to be taught to do.

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

Just my two cents.

the red sections are the ones that strike me as ascribing "ownership". The blue ones are the ones where you're extending the thing that works for you personally to pretty much the whole species.

Additionally, I think your experience, wherein it is women who call other women slutty and shame them... is not representative of the standard experience.

 

[Emily Lake]

I have a question for women.

How do you tolerate men at all? I'm a man and I can barely tolerate men.

I love my spouse, and the male friends and family in my life. Most individual men are just fine. It's really only as an aggregate that "men" can become tedious.

 

[James Brown]

"Although we adore them indi-vid-ual-ly,
On the whole we think they're ra-ther stu-pid."

From 'Mary Poppins'

 

[Rhea]

@Rhea? Um... Did you happen to notice that another rascally turkey found its way into another post? I think something's going on...

LOL, I was assuming that was an autocorrect on “entirely”

Toni's post, right up there...


ETA: How do you do the @ mention thing?!

You type
@
And then their user name
WAB
And then a semicolon
;
So it looks like this
[MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION];
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

 

[WAB]

@Rhea? Um... Did you happen to notice that another rascally turkey found its way into another post? I think something's going on...

LOL, I was assuming that was an autocorrect on “entirely”

Toni's post, right up there...


ETA: How do you do the @ mention thing?!

You type
@
And then their user name
WAB
And then a semicolon
;
So it looks like this
[MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION];
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

Okay, thanks!

 

[Emily Lake]

@Rhea? Um... Did you happen to notice that another rascally turkey found its way into another post? I think something's going on...

LOL, I was assuming that was an autocorrect on “entirely”

Toni's post, right up there...


ETA: How do you do the @ mention thing?!

You type
@
And then their user name
WAB
And then a semicolon
;
So it looks like this
[MENTION=556]WAB[/MENTION];
And the software recognizes from the leading @ and the trailing ; that a user’s name is inbetween. We made that the code so it could handle spaces and not be confused by pasted tweets.

Please continue to educate. What does that accomplish? What's the purpose of that mention?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I was not aware of that I did. Perhaps you could explain how you think I did that?

Coming from decades of being in open relationships sluty women being shamed and virginity being upheld as a virtue isn't something that comes from men. Women do that to each other. Women have capacity of much more sex than men do. The moment men stop being selfish and jealous and "share" their women, there's more sex for everybody.

When entering into the open/poly world men and women react along different lines.

The men who are jealous and have problems with it have very serious issues. They have something seriously wrong in the head. It's nearly always something weird and random. Some deep seated insecurity. If it was natural, then we'd expect to see some clear pattern. But it's all nuts. A quite common hang up is feelings of inadequecy. Which is cute. But doesn't explain why they would have a problem with his woman sleeping with another man. He's not going to become more adequate if they're monogamous. It's supremely irrational, ie just nuts. But, like I said, men's problems with open relationships are most often just bizarre.

Women are the ones who call each other sluts and shame other women for sleeping around. If they have a problem with open relationships it's usually because they're genuinely emotionally monogamous. They need to be in love with the men they sleep with and only have capacity to love one man at a time. I say usually. Because a lot of women of course are into open relationships. More women than men. And are cool with it. Men typically struggle more in open relationships than women.

My take away from my experiences with this world is that shaming women for their sexuality is what women do to each other (perhaps something innate) and something men have to be taught to do.

Men love slutty women. It makes no sense that a confident man in touch with his sexuality (and who isn't crazy) would have any problem with women sleeping around with whoever. A lot of men think they will. But once in the open relationship world and get over the initial shock, they're like fish in water.

Just my two cents.

the red sections are the ones that strike me as ascribing "ownership". The blue ones are the ones where you're extending the thing that works for you personally to pretty much the whole species.

You have referred to your spouse as "my" spouse repeatedly. I guess it's fine when women do it? Post 151 for example.

It is also rediculous. In context it's not hard to work out that what is meant is partnerships. In that sentence I need to show that the woman is having sex with somebody else than their partner somehow. Without adding words that needlessly confuse. It looks to me like you are reading the text maliciously, having decided in advance that you are going to be offended and grasping at any straws to be able to do so. Not caring about the context or keeping a discussion going. It's just a power tactic, to derail a conversion you are worried won't go in the direction you want it to go.

Additionally, I think your experience, wherein it is women who call other women slutty and shame them... is not representative of the standard experience.

It's not just my experience. There's a whole universe of literature on this topic. Most American. So I'm pretty sure it's the same over there. In addition, we talk to each other. I'm in a men's group where we're all in open relationships and we discuss problems. It's the same problems that surface again and again. Our partners are in women's groups. They also talk to each other. We talk to our partners. There's a lot of talking going on.

I see what you are doing. You are trying to reduce what I'm saying to only be about my experiences, so that you can try to palm this off as me being unique and special. But it is interesting sociologically. Because this kind of relationships barely existed before the 1960'ies. Now it's spread all over the western world, and keeps growing. It's a new thing. And I think we have a lot to learn from this world because it's a new thing.

It is a large natural experiment. What happens when adults get to have sex with anybody they want to, and they don't need to take any consideration of any social constraints other than asking for consent. I suspect that everybody thinks that is interesting.

And even if it is a marginal activity. We can learn things from the people in the lifestyle. While these women aren't representative for women in general (since most women aren't in open relationships). They are representative of who are in open relationships. There's things we can learn from male/female dynamics in open relationships regardless of their number.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Men love slutty women??

I'd say only slutty men love slutty women.

What men aren't? What men aren't always trying to be a slut? If a man isn't a slut isn't it always only about a lack of ability to sleep around? I have never heard of anybody talking about it being a virtue for a man not sleeping around in any circumstance or context. The only comments are about men sleeping with women that other men are interested in, and that's the problem.

I feel like you've got a pretty narrow and confining view of both men and women. I find it pretty offensive, and I'm also offended on behalf of my spouse, my married friends, my parents, and the majority of people in loving long-term monogamous relationships.

I get that the open relationship thing works for you, but I think you err in trying to frame that as normal and desirable for everyone.

Men in monogamous relationships also watch porn. If they didn't want to have sex with other women, they wouldn't. Human beings are capable of parallel thoughts. We can want to have sex with others while also want other things and therefore refrain from doing so. We have the capacity to weigh wants against each other and select what we prioritize.

What exactly is offensive about acknowledging that? I'd say nothing is gained from trying to cling to a fairy tale fantasy image of relationships that is supported by zero data. Pornhub is doing extremely well. It's not just used by singles and people in open relationships.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Your post #131.

You'll need to be more specific than that.

I suggest, if you feel that I've said something you find objectionable, make sure I've said what you think I said, before making a post. Emily Lake even managed to read into that same post that I'm claiming that people who give each other total freedom is somehow claiming ownership of each other. That's an impressive feat of malicious misreading.

It's like you and her have decided in advance what you think I'm likely to write, so you skip reading and jump straight to outrage. It doesn't lead to much of a meaningful conversation.

Where did I write that I found what you wrote to be objectionable? Weird, yes. I wrote that. Objectionable? I didn’t write or imply that!

As for generalizing your personal preferences to the general population, please see the last paragraph of your post #131.

So you just made it up. To what end? What are you hoping to achieve with dishonest discussion of this kind? Do you think I wouldn't remember what I wrote. I'm capable of going back to read my own posts. They're in writing.

 

[Toni]

Where did I write that I found what you wrote to be objectionable? Weird, yes. I wrote that. Objectionable? I didn’t write or imply that!

As for generalizing your personal preferences to the general population, please see the last paragraph of your post #131.

So you just made it up. To what end? What are you hoping to achieve with dishonest discussion of this kind? Do you think I wouldn't remember what I wrote. I'm capable of going back to read my own posts. They're in writing.

???????????

I pointed you to your specific post. When that was insufficient, I pointed you to a specific paragraph.

 

[southernhybrid]

I feel like you've got a pretty narrow and confining view of both men and women. I find it pretty offensive, and I'm also offended on behalf of my spouse, my married friends, my parents, and the majority of people in loving long-term monogamous relationships.

I get that the open relationship thing works for you, but I think you err in trying to frame that as normal and desirable for everyone.

Men in monogamous relationships also watch porn. If they didn't want to have sex with other women, they wouldn't. Human beings are capable of parallel thoughts. We can want to have sex with others while also want other things and therefore refrain from doing so. We have the capacity to weigh wants against each other and select what we prioritize.

What exactly is offensive about acknowledging that? I'd say nothing is gained from trying to cling to a fairy tale fantasy image of relationships that is supported by zero data. Pornhub is doing extremely well. It's not just used by singles and people in open relationships.

Wow! You really don't get it. People often watch porn for fantasy, not necessarily because they want to have sex with lots of people. My husband and I used to watch porn together when we were young. It was just an extra bit of foreplay. Sometimes it was a turn off, so we'd stop the video and get real.

I had a supervisor who loved to watch porn with her husband, and that was back in the 80s. In fact, she and I would go to lunch together Fridays, and then rent some porn VHS videos. Then on Saturday, we'd meet and exchange each other's videos to watch that night with our husbands. My supervisor was a rather plain looking woman in her late 40s, but she had a very exciting sex life with her husband. Yes. Women do talk about such things.

For us, porn became boring after several years of watching it, but I still have a few old VHS porn movies on the shelf collecting dust. Maybe I should see if they are worth some money. I recently read that old VHS tapes are now valuable. I probably shouldn't be revealing so much personal information, but I've never felt shy about discussing sex with other people. I even discussed it with my former patients when they brought the topic up. There were sometimes affairs among the octogenarians going on in the facility where I worked, but I digress.

Nancy Friday wrote two books about female sexual fantasies. ( "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers" ) She interviewed numerous women who were willing to openly discuss their sexual fantasies. None of them wanted to carry out these fantasies in real life. Some enjoyed masturbating to their fantasies. For women, that can be very satisfying sex. Pleasuring oneself is the safest, most care free type of sex available. It's certainly safer and less complicated than having casual sex, or sex with a group of people, even if that's your thing. Life is full of fantasy and myths, and most of them aren't sexual.

Have you never had a fantasy that you never really would want to do in real life, regardless if it involved sex or something else? If not, you must not have a very vivid imagination, or maybe you're simply wired differently from the majority.

Just because you like having an open relationship that permits you to fuck around freely, doesn't mean that the rest of us find that desirable. We don't care that you like having multiple sex partners, but when you project your life style on the rest of us it comes across as arrogant. When you claim that we are living a fairy tale, that comes across as obnoxious. You don't know what's in our minds. You have no idea what we desire or what makes us happy. You are simply projecting your own feelings on the rest of us. We, on the other hand, are not doing that to you.