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Rape culture: British Style

because telling someone with the will and the desire to rape someone "oh hey, don't rape someone" is probably going to accomplish fuck-all.
I agree that anyone who is out with the mindset of "I'm going to rape me a woman" will be unaffected. That is not the intended demographic of the poster. The implicit point of that poster is to make one think that having sex with someone who is drunk might be rape. That just might get some men who otherwise have some scruples to rethink what they might get into.
 
I agree that anyone who is out with the mindset of "I'm going to rape me a woman" will be unaffected. That is not the intended demographic of the poster. The implicit point of that poster is to make one think that having sex with someone who is drunk might be rape. That just might get some men who otherwise have some scruples to rethink what they might get into.
it's an interesting subject regarding effectiveness of messaging - if as some people are claiming many men (especially those that are inebriated) don't think she's saying no or don't understand she's not consenting, and thus don't consider themselves rapists or their act to be rape, what exactly would be the correct strategy to alter their behavior?
 
If only it made women safer. It doesn't, really.

If telling girls all of those things worked, virtually no one would be raped at or after a party.

Telling girls these things does help them be informed about what actions *might* help them be safer. But it also puts them on the hook for their own safety--if they get raped, they must have done something wrong.

No, it does not put them on the hook for it. The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea to try and avoid rape.

And the point you continue to ignore is that NONE of the things women are told to do to avoid being raped actually work to avoid being raped. Staying sober does not ensure I will be safe from rape. Dressing conservatively does not ensure I will not be raped.

As I have pointed out mulitple times now (and been ignored every time because it doesn't fit some people's narrative) is that even the *warning* sign in the OP makes it clear that 2 out of 3 rapes have nothing to do with the sobriety of the victim. So why the fuck are we wasting time *warning* women not to drink?

And IF we are going to warn women not to drink because it *might* increase their chances of being raped, where are the signs warning men not to drink because it *might* increase their chances of being a rapist?
 
Ritual: a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating_ritual

attempting to dodge a point by being a pedantic twat over one of two possible definitions a phrase... slick.

Sorry, but the things you listed do not qualify or compare to animal mating rituals. Courtship, especially in modern times has no ritualistic elements. If it pleases you to believe so, it is no inconvenience to me. You got nothing.
 
And the point you continue to ignore is that NONE of the things women are told to do to avoid being raped actually work to avoid being raped.

This is a patently ludicrous claim. People wearing seatbelts have died in car accidents, so does that mean wearing a seat belt does not mitigate the risk of dying in a car accident? People who have normal blood pressure have died from heart attacks; does that mean there is no association between hypertension and heart attack risk?

Of course not. Of course you can be raped even if you take a number of measures to guard against it. That does not mean there is nothing that can mitigate your risk, or that mitigating your risk wasn't worth it.

Perhaps you're making a different, less ludicrous claim. Perhaps you're saying that the risk mitigating behaviours offer no or only trivial reductions in rape risk. That's an empirical question, of course.

But do you believe, do you actually believe, that women who accept opened/uncovered drinks at parties are no more at risk from rape than women who don't?

Was Toni wasting her time when she told her daughters to avoid accepting opened drinks?

Staying sober does not ensure I will be safe from rape. Dressing conservatively does not ensure I will not be raped.

No, and having an ideal lipid profile does not 'ensure' I will be free from a heart attack, and locking my car does not guarantee it won't be stolen.

Are you looking for a guarantee against crime? What planet do you live on?

As I have pointed out mulitple times now (and been ignored every time because it doesn't fit some people's narrative) is that even the *warning* sign in the OP makes it clear that 2 out of 3 rapes have nothing to do with the sobriety of the victim. So why the fuck are we wasting time *warning* women not to drink?

Your claim has been answered before. Your bewilderment is a result of your statistical ignorance.

Do you believe that women spend a third of their lives drunk? Because then it really would be the case (or at least, it would appear to be the case on correlations with no other variables partialled out) that there was no association between drunkenness and rape risk.

But of course, women don't spend a third of their lives drunk. I would say young women in the prime of their 'partying' years (say, 18-25) spend about 8 hours drunk a week (let's say 4 hours on Friday and Saturday night). That means they're drunk about 5% of the time, yet this is when one third of rape victims are raped.

If smokers make up 5% of the population but one third of the people in an emphysema ward, would you make the clearly mistaken claim that smoking has nothing to do with emphysema?

And IF we are going to warn women not to drink because it *might* increase their chances of being raped, where are the signs warning men not to drink because it *might* increase their chances of being a rapist?

That's an empirical question. Does being drunk increase the probability that a man will rape someone?

But in any case, that's a different kettle of fish. Whether rape can be reduced by signs addressing potential rapists is an interesting proposition. I think the idea might work for petty crimes. There certainly are signs that try to discourage (potential) criminals from engaging in crime. Some of them don't even have to have text. (E.g. a prominent screensaver of a pair of eyes encourages psychology students to not cheat when left alone in a room).

But I don't think we'll ever see signs saying 'Don't kill people, it's murder'. Rape is not as serious a crime as murder, but it's far more serious than shoplifting.
 
Don't shoplift

Isn't it typically a "shoplifters will be prosecuted" sign? Perhaps the same thing in practice...
The original signs giving merchandise advice on how best to avoid being shoplifted we're found to be largely ineffective.

If I were the type to get offended by things said in good faith I would point out that using "no shoplifting" signs as an analogy is hugely offensive to women, comparing them, as it does, to mere merchandise in a shop. But if people stopped being offended by things which were never intended to offend, this thread, and half the other threads here would never have got started.
 
Isn't it typically a "shoplifters will be prosecuted" sign? Perhaps the same thing in practice...
The original signs giving merchandise advice on how best to avoid being shoplifted we're found to be largely ineffective.

If I were the type to get offended by things said in good faith I would point out that using "no shoplifting" signs as an analogy is hugely offensive to women, comparing them, as it does, to mere merchandise in a shop. But if people stopped being offended by things which were never intended to offend, this thread, and half the other threads here would never have got started.

I would say something here, but you would probably be offended, so I won't.
 
I agree that anyone who is out with the mindset of "I'm going to rape me a woman" will be unaffected. That is not the intended demographic of the poster. The implicit point of that poster is to make one think that having sex with someone who is drunk might be rape. That just might get some men who otherwise have some scruples to rethink what they might get into.
it's an interesting subject regarding effectiveness of messaging - if as some people are claiming many men (especially those that are inebriated) don't think she's saying no or don't understand she's not consenting, and thus don't consider themselves rapists or their act to be rape, what exactly would be the correct strategy to alter their behavior?
There are probably multiple strategies, of which, this poster is one.
 
The original signs giving merchandise advice on how best to avoid being shoplifted we're found to be largely ineffective.

If I were the type to get offended by things said in good faith I would point out that using "no shoplifting" signs as an analogy is hugely offensive to women, comparing them, as it does, to mere merchandise in a shop. But if people stopped being offended by things which were never intended to offend, this thread, and half the other threads here would never have got started.

I would say something here, but you would probably be offended, so I won't.

I appreciate your kind-hearted forbearance.
 
I really thought I was going to have to work harder than that.

You should.

Like a personal pride sort of thing? Like even though a task may require a very little effort and a simple or limited attempt will suffice I shouldn't be satisfied with that sort of external feedback, I should still strive for my best even when it's unnecessary? One of those things?
 
You should.

Like a personal pride sort of thing? Like even though a task may require a very little effort and a simple or limited attempt will suffice I shouldn't be satisfied with that sort of external feedback, I should still strive for my best even when it's unnecessary? One of those things?

No. Not even close.

I don't know what it is you think you accomplished, so I can't make a comment on whether you achieved it, or if it was worth achieving in the first place.

But if what you set out to do was give a strawman response and then pretend it was a planned 'gotcha' moment, I can confirm that you did indeed give a strawman response and I am aware of the pretense.
 
And the point you continue to ignore is that NONE of the things women are told to do to avoid being raped actually work to avoid being raped. Staying sober does not ensure I will be safe from rape. Dressing conservatively does not ensure I will not be raped.
can we all agree that by and large there are 3 primary scenarios in which *most* rapes take place?
1. rape by someone you know who uses their existing physical proximity and your trust to put themselves in a position to take advantage of you.
2. rape by an unknown person who is a serial and/or victimology-based rapist who has hunted you down specifically.
3. rape of opportunity, wherein a male and a female are in physical proximity to each other and some kind of circumstances presents itself which allows the man to rape the woman with minimal or zero impediment.

am i missing any primary scenarios? that's all i can think of, at least in terms of being the most common situations in which a sexual assault or rape occur.

so, let's extrapolate:
http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/Statistics2.php
Approximately 85,000 women are raped on average in England and Wales every year

assuming the statistic is true from the OP that means 28,333 rapes per year happen to drunk women.
let's say, just for the sake of conversation, that 85% of those are rapes of opportunity.
that's 24,083 rapes per year that, in theory and if you don't grievously disagree with any of the preceding statements, could be 100% avoided by those women simply not being so drunk that they couldn't stop or deter an unwanted sexual advance.

is rape the fault of the rapist? absolutely, every time.
is even a hint of blaming the victim generally bad? without question.
is addressing and trying to stop 24,000 rapes per year a bad thing? well, i leave that up to you.

As I have pointed out mulitple times now (and been ignored every time because it doesn't fit some people's narrative) is that even the *warning* sign in the OP makes it clear that 2 out of 3 rapes have nothing to do with the sobriety of the victim. So why the fuck are we wasting time *warning* women not to drink?
because unless you have any objections to my math above that's 24,000 less rapes per year.

And IF we are going to warn women not to drink because it *might* increase their chances of being raped, where are the signs warning men not to drink because it *might* increase their chances of being a rapist?
quite simply, this very forum has answered that question - because according to the overwhelming majority of people that post in these threads on this topic, stone-sober or black-out drunks makes absolutely no difference in the culpability or criminal intent of a male who has sex with a female who reports that sex as a rape.
now perhaps if you people allowed for the possibility that a level of inebriation can be a factor in such things, it would make sense - but since you don't, i don't see how it does.
 
Like a personal pride sort of thing? Like even though a task may require a very little effort and a simple or limited attempt will suffice I shouldn't be satisfied with that sort of external feedback, I should still strive for my best even when it's unnecessary? One of those things?

No. Not even close.

I don't know what it is you think you accomplished, so I can't make a comment on whether you achieved it, or if it was worth achieving in the first place.

But if what you set out to do was give a strawman response and then pretend it was a planned 'gotcha' moment, I can confirm that you did indeed give a strawman response and I am aware of the pretense.

Well, I want to win an argument, obviously.

And since this is the internet, the conventional method of admitting defeat is to spout tangental nonsense one doesn't believe.

I thought it would be harder. I thought it would take you far longer to give up.

I didn't think you would at all, to be honest.
 
Well, I want to win an argument, obviously.

And since this is the internet, the conventional method of admitting defeat is to spout tangental nonsense one doesn't believe.

Is that why you did it?

I thought it would be harder. I thought it would take you far longer to give up.

Oh dear. You've misperceived the situation so dramatically, I feel slightly embarrased for you.

But I'm glad to hear you've given up.
 
Some of the fuzzy *math* answers on this thread remind me of arguments and statistics used to justify racism. :rolleyes:

I suggest targeting men with the "don't get drunk" message and I get several pseudo-logical howls of protest despite factual evidence that the "don't be that guy" posters are genuinely effective in reducing rapes - unlike the type of poster in the OP.

I also find it interesting that every time we have any thread trying to discuss rape prevention, we have certain men that always try to derail with some version of "some women get drunk to lose their inhibitions about sex" (as if this is a good excuse to rape that woman, or slut-shame her after she's been raped). I wonder if these same men willing to entertain the possibility that "some men get drunk to lose their inhibitions about raping a woman". I doubt it.

Yet the facts remain that the rapists alcohol/drug consumption is a factor at least as often as the voluntary alcohol/drug consumption of the victim. Athena and I have repeatedly suggested side-by-side posters addressing the influence alcohol plays on both sides of the rapist-victim divide. I find it extremely interesting that the very same people defending the OP poster also object to the "don't be that guy" posters.

I'm curious, what did everyone think of the UCLA poster shown towards the end of the video I posted?
 
Some of the fuzzy *math* answers on this thread remind me of arguments and statistics used to justify racism. :rolleyes:

Would you care to point to specific examples? You're accusing me of being innumerate and or dishonest, and so I'd like to know how you've come to that conclusion.
I suggest targeting men with the "don't get drunk" message and I get several pseudo-logical howls of protest despite factual evidence that the "don't be that guy" posters are genuinely effective in reducing rapes - unlike the type of poster in the OP.

Where have you presented the evidence that 'don't be that guy' posters are effective, and that 'don't get drunk' posters are ineffective? Both of those are empirical claims.


Yet the facts remain that the rapists alcohol/drug consumption is a factor at least as often as the voluntary alcohol/drug consumption of the victim.

What facts? I've never seen any statistics on the sobriety of convicted rapists at the time they raped; I'd be glad to see them.

Athena and I have repeatedly suggested side-by-side posters addressing the influence alcohol plays on both sides of the rapist-victim divide. I find it extremely interesting that the very same people defending the OP poster also object to the "don't be that guy" posters.

Who's objecting? Skepticism that criminals will change their behaviour because they see a poster asking them to not be criminals isn't an objection. Put up all the posters you like. In fact, I've already stated that such posters definitely have an effect on minor acts (stealing, cheating) but I'm profoundly skeptical they'll stop major ones (murder, rape).

All I've ever wanted to do is point out that informing potential victims about ways they might mitigate their risk is not blaming the victim, any more than travel warnings put out by national governments are blaming the victim.
 
Having read this thread from stem to stern I am with you Metaphor.
I do not understand how any poster that gives advice to women about how to reduce the possibility of rape could be blaming the victim.
In Australia when I was a child there was a series of ads with a creature called a Hector giving children advice on crossing the road by saying 'look left, look right, look left again''. I never knew that all those ads were blaming the victim i.e. those run over by a car.
 
Would you care to point to specific examples? You're accusing me of being innumerate and or dishonest, and so I'd like to know how you've come to that conclusion.
I suggest targeting men with the "don't get drunk" message and I get several pseudo-logical howls of protest despite factual evidence that the "don't be that guy" posters are genuinely effective in reducing rapes - unlike the type of poster in the OP.

Where have you presented the evidence that 'don't be that guy' posters are effective, and that 'don't get drunk' posters are ineffective? Both of those are empirical claims.


Yet the facts remain that the rapists alcohol/drug consumption is a factor at least as often as the voluntary alcohol/drug consumption of the victim.

What facts? I've never seen any statistics on the sobriety of convicted rapists at the time they raped; I'd be glad to see them.

Athena and I have repeatedly suggested side-by-side posters addressing the influence alcohol plays on both sides of the rapist-victim divide. I find it extremely interesting that the very same people defending the OP poster also object to the "don't be that guy" posters.

Who's objecting? Skepticism that criminals will change their behaviour because they see a poster asking them to not be criminals isn't an objection. Put up all the posters you like. In fact, I've already stated that such posters definitely have an effect on minor acts (stealing, cheating) but I'm profoundly skeptical they'll stop major ones (murder, rape).

All I've ever wanted to do is point out that informing potential victims about ways they might mitigate their risk is not blaming the victim, any more than travel warnings put out by national governments are blaming the victim.

except that the don't be that guy posters have worked to lower sexual assault cases. So what are you skeptical of?
And if hard core rapists are as determined as you say, I could argue that sobriety will not save anyone. But I don't believe that because this is how I think this goes down. A bad guy has decided he isn't taking no for an answer. I am sober, but the woman down the bar from me is not. The rapist chooses her not me. I don't get raped but a rape still occurs. In order to get the rape stats to go down, we have to concentrate more, not all, but more on the actions of potential rapists. Should men and women behave responsibly? Yes. They, both genders, should.

Both posters go up, one side gets to offer their heartfelt advice to women and the other gets to remind good guys to be good.
It's a solution where everybody gets what they want, all of what they want.

And yet the argument continues, past a solution that will work and both sides get what they want.

This makes no sense to me.
 
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