Religion is still the biggest obstacle to progress in the U.S.

[Tigers!]

On the surface I see generational change in those numbers, not intensity change.

When Christianity collapsed in the UK in the 1950s-1979s,

Has the UK improved since the collapse of Christianity? I am thinking Brexit etc.
Reading the news I do not think that the UK is 'better' now that in the 1960s for example.

the amount of pushback from the church in its desparate struggle to hold on to power was huge. Their focus was on holding the levers of power, even after their grassroots support had gone, and on claiming popular support that didn't exist, thereby hiding their decline, particularly from their remaining adherents. And the decline wasn't uniform; Some regions held out a lot longer than others, with population density as the most obvious driver - the densest populations went secular first and fastest. Many rural Englanders still go to church on Sunday. Only nonogenarians go to church weekly in the cities; The rest go for funerals and weddings, so as not to upset grandma.

I see something similar happening in the US.

Probably correct. Happened in Oz too.

 

[bilby]

On the surface I see generational change in those numbers, not intensity change.

When Christianity collapsed in the UK in the 1950s-1979s,

Has the UK improved since the collapse of Christianity?

Depends what you mean by "improved". Do you have a particular measure in mind?

I am thinking Brexit etc.

Brexit doesn't seem to have much to do with Christianity; The distribution of votes overlap, (educated people in England tend to be less religious and less supportive of Brexit) so likely a slightly greater proportion of Christians were in the Brexit camp than out of it, but the two things don't correlate well.

Brexit was a national disaster brought on by nostalgia and nationalism, and so is the establishment of the CofE, so they share that in common, I guess.

Reading the news I do not think that the UK is 'better' now that in the 1960s for example.

Again, that depends on your measure. GDP per calita is far higher now; UK residents have more and better TVs and cars than they did then; The weather has warmed slightly...

the amount of pushback from the church in its desparate struggle to hold on to power was huge. Their focus was on holding the levers of power, even after their grassroots support had gone, and on claiming popular support that didn't exist, thereby hiding their decline, particularly from their remaining adherents. And the decline wasn't uniform; Some regions held out a lot longer than others, with population density as the most obvious driver - the densest populations went secular first and fastest. Many rural Englanders still go to church on Sunday. Only nonogenarians go to church weekly in the cities; The rest go for funerals and weddings, so as not to upset grandma.

I see something similar happening in the US.

Probably correct. Happened in Oz too.

Happens everywhere. Cities are less hidebound than rural communities.

 

[Tigers!]

On the surface I see generational change in those numbers, not intensity change.

When Christianity collapsed in the UK in the 1950s-1979s,

Has the UK improved since the collapse of Christianity?

Depends what you mean by "improved". Do you have a particular measure in mind?

I am thinking Brexit etc.

Brexit doesn't seem to have much to do with Christianity; The distribution of votes overlap, (educated people in England tend to be less religious and less supportive of Brexit) so likely slightly more Christians were in the Brexit camp than out of it, but the two things don't correlate well.

I used Brexit as an example of a (very) large change in circumstances that has not gone well for many reasons. Disconent in many forms was a precursor/cause of Brexit. Would the non-collapse of Christinaity had lead to Brexit? We will never know. But Christianity was a form of 'glue'. It has dissolved and nothing viable/useful has replaced it.

Reading the news I do not think that the UK is 'better' now that in the 1960s for example.

Again, that depends on your measure. GDP per calita is far higher now; UK residents have more and better TVs and cars than they did then; The weather has warmed slightly...

Are the inhabitants more content, happier (subjective I know)? Do they have hope for the future and for their children? Is their still strong trust in public and large institutions i.e. govt (of any sort), commerce, legal etc.?
Seeing the telly, reading the news I am not convinced that the locals are happy, have faith in the future, trust their govts etc.

the amount of pushback from the church in its desparate struggle to hold on to power was huge. Their focus was on holding the levers of power, even after their grassroots support had gone, and on claiming popular support that didn't exist, thereby hiding their decline, particularly from their remaining adherents. And the decline wasn't uniform; Some regions held out a lot longer than others, with population density as the most obvious driver - the densest populations went secular first and fastest. Many rural Englanders still go to church on Sunday. Only nonogenarians go to church weekly in the cities; The rest go for funerals and weddings, so as not to upset grandma.

I see something similar happening in the US.

Probably correct. Happened in Oz too.

Happens everywhere. Cities are less hidebound than rural communities.

Again is the change for the better?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For those who aren't as marginalized now, yeah, most likely, quite a bit.

 

[ZiprHead]

They're going down. Can't expect them to go down without a fight.

Yes, they are fighting back.

But things like abortion bans and birth control bans and just being social busy bodies will most certainly turn more people against them.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Bummer, man. Private forum owners can do as they please. Run by a Christian?

Okay fine, it wasn't as innocuous as that...

Heh.

To paraphrase myself, "I don't care if the guy is blasting Slayer in the background while worshipping Cthulu during a blood orgy. Just win games."

 

[unapologetic]

I'd say this is kind of just throwing everything out with the water, including the tub. "Evangelical Christianity" has proven to be nothing more than the uglier sides of organized religion. But all of Christianity? Come on, that is an absurd broad brush.

You think only a few evangelicals want to dominate society/politics, fine. But the vast majority will just sit back and let them do it. So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

We might be at an inflection point, but it isn't Christianity that is the issue, it is the evangelical Christians that helped raise Trump to power

Case in point. The 'moderate' christians didn't object.

We will need a bizarro-world Alt-Trump to genocide them, if we want to free ourselves from JDS (Jesus Derangement Syndrome) before the next world war.

What, before next month? When Rump invades Greenland?

 

[TSwizzle]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

 

[Elixir]

What, before next month? When Rump invades Greenland?

If he does that next week, I can’t wait to see what he has in mind for November.

 

[WAB]

I'd say this is kind of just throwing everything out with the water, including the tub. "Evangelical Christianity" has proven to be nothing more than the uglier sides of organized religion. But all of Christianity? Come on, that is an absurd broad brush.

You think only a few evangelicals want to dominate society/politics, fine. But the vast majority will just sit back and let them do it. So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

We might be at an inflection point, but it isn't Christianity that is the issue, it is the evangelical Christians that helped raise Trump to power

Case in point. The 'moderate' christians didn't object.

We will need a bizarro-world Alt-Trump to genocide them, if we want to free ourselves from JDS (Jesus Derangement Syndrome) before the next world war.

What, before next month? When Rump invades Greenland?

Over all there is way too much generalization coming from an awful lot of people, and from all kinds of people.

First, not all evangelical Christians are right wing or conservative; and not all conservatives voted for Trump. Plenty of conservatives were and are critical of Trump. And plenty of evangelical Christians are liberals, or left wing. And there are plenty of non-evangelical Christians who are conservative or right wing. Plenty of Catholics are very conservative, and radicalized. You've heard of Mel Gibson? And there are plenty of atheists who are right wing and/or conservative. My father is a diehard atheist, and a Trumper. As is his friend and neighbor.

There are lots of Black conservatives, lots of Hispanic conservatives, etc. And many of them voted for Trump, many of them didn't.

There are rich people who voted for Trump; there are poor people who voted for Trump.

And not all Trumpers are stupid, or low-information voters. A disturbing number of them are quite clever, and quite educated and informed, and they happen to like the way things are going. They like the military in the streets. They like that the US has its long nose in the affairs of several other countries, as well as its soldiers, guns, bombs and planes. If we think everyone who voted for Trump are just stupid or uninformed, if we think of them as weak minded puppets who know nothing but rank cowardice and obedience, we are quite literally cutting a very large number of people some slack, and making excuses for them.

 

[Bomb#20]

Okay fine, it wasn't as innocuous as that...

Heh.

To paraphrase myself, "I don't care if the guy is blasting Slayer in the background while worshipping Cthulu during a blood orgy. Just win games."

I'd have banned you too -- misspelling a Great Old One! Be grateful he didn't eat your face off!

 

[Bomb#20]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

Whichever alternative you have in mind, you're taking for granted it isn't a religion too.

 

[Toni]

On the surface I see generational change in those numbers, not intensity change.

When Christianity collapsed in the UK in the 1950s-1979s,

Has the UK improved since the collapse of Christianity?

Depends what you mean by "improved". Do you have a particular measure in mind?

I am thinking Brexit etc.

Brexit doesn't seem to have much to do with Christianity; The distribution of votes overlap, (educated people in England tend to be less religious and less supportive of Brexit) so likely a slightly greater proportion of Christians were in the Brexit camp than out of it, but the two things don't correlate well.

Brexit was a national disaster brought on by nostalgia and nationalism, and so is the establishment of the CofE, so they share that in common, I guess.

Reading the news I do not think that the UK is 'better' now that in the 1960s for example.

Again, that depends on your measure. GDP per calita is far higher now; UK residents have more and better TVs and cars than they did then; The weather has warmed slightly...

the amount of pushback from the church in its desparate struggle to hold on to power was huge. Their focus was on holding the levers of power, even after their grassroots support had gone, and on claiming popular support that didn't exist, thereby hiding their decline, particularly from their remaining adherents. And the decline wasn't uniform; Some regions held out a lot longer than others, with population density as the most obvious driver - the densest populations went secular first and fastest. Many rural Englanders still go to church on Sunday. Only nonogenarians go to church weekly in the cities; The rest go for funerals and weddings, so as not to upset grandma.

I see something similar happening in the US.

Probably correct. Happened in Oz too.

Happens everywhere. Cities are less hidebound than rural communities.

I don’t think that is true. I think it’s a stereotype.

What is true is that churches/houses of worship do a great deal to support people in smaller town and rural communities.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd say this is kind of just throwing everything out with the water, including the tub. "Evangelical Christianity" has proven to be nothing more than the uglier sides of organized religion. But all of Christianity? Come on, that is an absurd broad brush.

You think only a few evangelicals want to dominate society/politics, fine. But the vast majority will just sit back and let them do it. So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

We might be at an inflection point, but it isn't Christianity that is the issue, it is the evangelical Christians that helped raise Trump to power

Case in point. The 'moderate' christians didn't object.

We will need a bizarro-world Alt-Trump to genocide them, if we want to free ourselves from JDS (Jesus Derangement Syndrome) before the next world war.

What, before next month? When Rump invades Greenland?

Over all there is way too much generalization coming from an awful lot of people, and from all kinds of people.

First, not all evangelical Christians are right wing or conservative; and not all conservatives voted for Trump.

No, not all. No one said all. In 2016, Evangelicals voted 81 to 16 for Trump. So that is vast majority territory. So I don't want to hear a BS drawl about how not all evanglelicals voted for Trump when 5 in 6 did.

Plenty of conservatives were and are critical of Trump.

No, if that were so, Harris would have won.

 

[unapologetic]

And not all Trumpers are stupid

Not all gullible people are stupid.
But all Rump voters were gullible.

 

[TSwizzle]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

Whichever alternative you have in mind, you're taking for granted it isn't a religion too.

Well it depends what you mean by religion. In my opinion, the word religion can be applied to almost any structure of thought/ideology. If you say religion only applies to deist type set ups I’m fine with that. What are your thoughts on what the replacement could be. Another deist religion of sorts? I was thinking more along the lines of some form of secular horror like communism but what ever it is, I don’t think it will be pleasant.

 

[robnisch]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

Whichever alternative you have in mind, you're taking for granted it isn't a religion too.

Well it depends what you mean by religion. In my opinion, the word religion can be applied to almost any structure of thought/ideology. If you say religion only applies to deist type set ups I’m fine with that. What are your thoughts on what the replacement could be. Another deist religion of sorts? I was thinking more along the lines of some form of secular horror like communism but what ever it is, I don’t think it will be pleasant.

Humanism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or maybe this.

 

[TSwizzle]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

Whichever alternative you have in mind, you're taking for granted it isn't a religion too.

Well it depends what you mean by religion. In my opinion, the word religion can be applied to almost any structure of thought/ideology. If you say religion only applies to deist type set ups I’m fine with that. What are your thoughts on what the replacement could be. Another deist religion of sorts? I was thinking more along the lines of some form of secular horror like communism but what ever it is, I don’t think it will be pleasant.

Humanism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or maybe this.

It’s a nice thought but I think it highly unlikely. I think some harsh authoritarian type regime will be more like it. That is certainly the way things are headed now.

 

[WAB]

I'd say this is kind of just throwing everything out with the water, including the tub. "Evangelical Christianity" has proven to be nothing more than the uglier sides of organized religion. But all of Christianity? Come on, that is an absurd broad brush.

You think only a few evangelicals want to dominate society/politics, fine. But the vast majority will just sit back and let them do it. So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

We might be at an inflection point, but it isn't Christianity that is the issue, it is the evangelical Christians that helped raise Trump to power

Case in point. The 'moderate' christians didn't object.

We will need a bizarro-world Alt-Trump to genocide them, if we want to free ourselves from JDS (Jesus Derangement Syndrome) before the next world war.

What, before next month? When Rump invades Greenland?

Over all there is way too much generalization coming from an awful lot of people, and from all kinds of people.

First, not all evangelical Christians are right wing or conservative; and not all conservatives voted for Trump.

No, not all. No one said all. In 2016, Evangelicals voted 81 to 16 for Trump. So that is vast majority territory. So I don't want to hear a BS drawl about how not all evanglelicals voted for Trump when 5 in 6 did.

Plenty of conservatives were and are critical of Trump.

No, if that were so, Harris would have won.

List of Republicans who opposed the Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's just prominent people. There were obviously plenty of regular republican voters who opposed Trump and/or voted for Harris.

Notice I wrote 'plenty', not an earth-shattering number, not even a 'significant' number.

 

[Bomb#20]

So if you value liberty, yes, ALL religion must die out.

Be careful what you wish for. The alternative will be much, much worse.

Whichever alternative you have in mind, you're taking for granted it isn't a religion too.

Well it depends what you mean by religion. In my opinion, the word religion can be applied to almost any structure of thought/ideology. If you say religion only applies to deist type set ups I’m fine with that. What are your thoughts on what the replacement could be. Another deist religion of sorts? I was thinking more along the lines of some form of secular horror like communism but what ever it is, I don’t think it will be pleasant.

Yeah, that's what I figured you had in mind. My point was that communism is a religion too -- if unapologetic gets his wish and all religion dies out, that includes communism dying out. So if all religions are off the table, it all depends on what sort of alternative remains. I'd like to think the replacement would be people all becoming rational and no longer believing without evidence -- that sounds pretty pleasant to me. But you're right that it might be a secular horror instead, just not one of the religious ones like communism. For instance, it might be the Idiocracy scenario, or it might be everybody en masse no longer giving a damn about what happens to strangers and to future generations.