Return of Kings: Supporters of website touting 'legalising rape' to meet across Australia

[Juma]

It might be foolish and stupid, but if she is sexually exploitet without consent it is still not her fault.

Ok so it is foolish and stupid, which is what Voosh says too, except he goes a step further and says if a woman doesn't act foolishly in that way she is less likely to be raped.

No. Women are raped however they behave.
So forcing women to change behavior will not help.
If the men didnt rape she is likely to be raped.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I wouldn't applaud you for raping me or anyone else. I'd expect you to go to jail.

That doesn't answer the question, though, does it?

On that one fateful night you are too drunk to drive home by yourself and you ask me to give you a ride; I instead drive you to a secluded place and rape you. That would be an unexpected consequence of YOUR irresponsible behavior, am I right?

Bad decisions have consequences. If you didn't want me to rape you, you shouldn't have gotten into my car.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

In TSwizzles defense he is stating that irresponsibility and bad choices have consequences. This is not controversial. The problem here is it is coupled with another's behavior to take advantage of these bad choices to harm another individual. Let's say a woman is drunk and walking alone late at night. Yes, she should not have been drunk and alone, that is irresponsible. But her being alone and drunk does not give another individual carte blanche to take advantage of the situation.

Why, exactly, should a woman not be drunk and walk alone? Why is that irresponsible? Surely you would not want her to drive home?

Same reasons why men should not wander out drunk and alone either. You are more prone to injury, getting lost, committing property damage, etc. We have numerous examples of alcohol related drownings, frostbite, and head injuries. When you are intoxicated, your mind is not necessarily clear.

What about just alone? Can a woman responsibly walk alone? Is there a particular o'clock which determines whether she is being responsible or irresponsible?

Remember we are talking drunk and alone. Having a sober spotter or a friend to look after you can avoid numerous situations, or can call for help if need arises. Whether you are a man or a woman.

Are drunk women walking home alone prone to committing crimes? Do they harass innocent men standing on the street corner, hoping to score a little somethinsomethin? Do they break windows? Graffiti buildings? Set fires? Slash tires? Make book?

Some do, but you miss my point: that it is everybody that should not be out wandering alone drunk at night. And if they are, there is still no justification for anyone to take advantage of them in any way.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Are drunk women walking home alone prone to committing crimes? Do they harass innocent men standing on the street corner, hoping to score a little somethinsomethin? Do they break windows? Graffiti buildings? Set fires? Slash tires? Make book?

Some do, but you miss my point: that it is everybody that should not be out wandering alone drunk at night. And if they are, there is still no justification for anyone to take advantage of them in any way.

Here's the thing: Most of the things that can happen to someone on their own -- drink or sober, alone or with friends -- do not require the intention of a second person. You can fail to look both ways and get hit by a car. You can step on ice that's too thin and fall through. You can accidentally touch a live wire and electrocute yourself.

Crimes, however, require the deliberate and intentional act of a second person, and rape requires a certain amount of premeditation and the EXTREMELY deliberate efforts to follow through with that plan. Inasmuch as allowing ones self to be vulnerable to a rapist is not a wise thing to do, the ACT of a rape is the sole responsibility of the rapist, and no one else.

The only reason -- I repeat, the ONLY reason -- this is even a question is the pervasive meme in western society that rape is something that happens to pretty girls who intentionally or unintentionally attract a lot of attention to themselves. Nobody wonders whether civilians in gang-infested neighborhoods should be buying bulletproof vests or wearing nametags on their shirts with the words "I am not a gang member" printed in bright green letters. Nobody wonders whether people killed by drunk drivers should have made a better effort to avoid bad drivers. Nobody wonders whether banks should make themselves harder to rob, whether cashiers should be quicker about closing the registers, whether Jews should hide any sign of their Jewishness in case some white supremacist takes notice. Nobody ever asks if male rape victims dressed too provocatively or drew unwanted attention from their attackers.

It's a complete non-issue. Victims do not bear the responsibility for the crimes committed against them, CRIMINALS do. People have a right to feel safe and secure, even when they are vulnerable; people DO NOT have the right to rape women, even when they are vulnerable.

 

[Will Wiley]

Ok so it is foolish and stupid, which is what Voosh says too, except he goes a step further and says if a woman doesn't act foolishly in that way she is less likely to be raped.

No. Women are raped however they behave.
.

So women who don't get drunk and enter a strangers house still get raped by that stranger in that house even though they didn't go there. ??

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No. Women are raped however they behave.
.

So women who don't get drunk and enter a strangers house still get raped by that stranger in that house even though they didn't go there. ??

No; women who are not drunk and are entering the house of a man who is not a stranger (and possibly even a friend or family member) will still be raped by that person IF HE IS A RAPIST.

Because he is a criminal. That's what he does. If she does not provide him the opportunity, he will probably create an opportunity on his own. Her behavior does not contribute to the situation; the presence of a rapist does.

 

[Will Wiley]

So women who don't get drunk and enter a strangers house still get raped by that stranger in that house even though they didn't go there. ??

No; women who are not drunk and are entering the house of a man who is not a stranger (and possibly even a friend or family member) will still be raped by that person IF HE IS A RAPIST.

Because there are two kinds of men. Rapists and non rapists. And rapists rape every woman who enters their home?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

no.

http://www.rooshv.com/how-to-stop-rape

I saw women wholly unconcerned with their own safety and the character of men they developed intimate relationships with. I saw women who voluntarily numbed themselves with alcohol and other drugs in social settings before letting the direction of the night’s wind determine who they would follow into a private room. I saw women who, once feeling awkward, sad, or guilty for a sexual encounter they didn’t fully remember, call upon an authority figure to resolve the problem by locking up her previous night’s lover in prison or ejecting him from school.

By attempting to teach men not to rape, what we have actually done is teach women not to care about being raped, not to protect themselves from easily preventable acts, and not to take responsibility for their actions. At the same time, we don’t hesitate to blame men for bad things that happen to them (if right now you walked into a dangerous ghetto and got robbed, you would be called an idiot and no one would say “teach ghetto kids not to steal”). It was obvious to me that the advice of our esteemed establishment writers and critics wasn’t stopping the problem, and since rape was already on the law books with severe penalties, additional laws or flyers posted on dormitory doors won’t stop this rape culture either.

Liking and trusting the wrong the man is not illegal, not even immoral. (And after these many years posting on these boards, I can name several men here who better be glad and appreciate that fact, otherwise they would never be with a woman.)

Getting drunk, provided you are of drinking age, is not illegal.

Forcing sex on someone without that person's consent is illegal, is immoral, and is totally the decision and responsibility of the rapist.

What kind of a man needs a woman to be drunk and or forced to have sex with him? And what kind of a person wants that kind of man to be able to blame his actions on his victim?

Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean it's not irresponsible,

Irresponsible behavior. ALSO not illegal and does not mitigate in the least the actions of the rapist.

Do you want it to?

Why do you think I would want it to?

Because you keep coming back to it like the actions of a victim control the actions of a rapist. If you don't believe that, why bring it up?

I would like to see less rapes.

Talk to the men who do the raping. Work to change a narrative that says women are responsible for behavior of men.

My experience, as a man, is that I have never known men to joke about raping a female or to suggest it or plan it.

How old are you and how many people do you know? Have you met the internet?

And I know a lot of men and I have hung out with a lot of men in a lot of situations, and they aren't all angels. I know people who have killed stolen bashed people and various other crimes, as well as people who have never committed a crime.

So these horrible people you know would beat people to death people but would never tell a joke about rape? Uh huh.

I have on many occasions seen women who put themselves in very dangerous situations often involving alcohol or drugs I know women who have shared with me how usually through alcohol they have put themselves in very risky dangerous situations and how later in the light of day they realised how foolish that was.

Which mitigates the actions of a rapist how?

So i think Voosh has a point when he points to these things

because women don't already know this, are not already teaching classes on this, are not already carrying weapons to protect themselves from this.

uh huh.

Voosh and his cadre of the chivalrous are the first to people to say to women (and men because they get drunk and raped too you know) be aware of your surroundings and don't drink too much because it makes you vulnerable and easier to attack.

But we need not say to men, if she's drunk, let her sleep it off so she can give reasoned consent to sex.

 

[Toni]

You have no idea what it felt like to have to tell my daughter all the things she shouldn't do---not because they were wrong but because if she did them, she would be entirely too vulnerable to having crimes committed against her. And to have to try to defend my words when she pointed out that her brother received no such cautions. No one told him to make sure his shirt or jeans weren't too tight or to make sure not to leave too many buttons undone. No one told him he shouldn't walk 3 blocks home from his friend's house after dark. Mind you: we live in a small town where most people know each other and many are related to each other. It's safe enough my neighbor only locks her house if she goes out of town. But I still had to worry about my daughter doing something so outrageous as walking home from her friend's house after dark. Do you know how hard it was to look her in the eyes and explain that she couldn't do something that is perfectly ordinary, healthy, even, if you are male, legal, moral, safe if you have a penis and testicles but not if you have breasts?

Dude, stop slut-shaming your daughter.

To quote my daughter: fuck that shit.

 

[bigfield]

Dude, stop slut-shaming your daughter.

To quote my daughter: fuck that shit.

Well, you still did it. If it wasn't for people like you, there wouldn't need to be slutwalks. Instead of telling your daughter how not to get raped, you should have told men not to rape her.

 

[TSwizzle]

I wouldn't applaud you for raping me or anyone else. I'd expect you to go to jail.

That doesn't answer the question, though, does it?

On that one fateful night you are too drunk to drive home by yourself and you ask me to give you a ride; I instead drive you to a secluded place and rape you. That would be an unexpected consequence of YOUR irresponsible behavior, am I right?

Bad decisions have consequences. If you didn't want me to rape you, you shouldn't have gotten into my car.

Look, you can come up with all sorts of scenarios and analyze it to death, just use some common sense.
If it were a drunk woman on her own, my advice would be don't accept a ride from a complete stranger, get a cab.

 

[Anne Fidel]

That doesn't answer the question, though, does it?

On that one fateful night you are too drunk to drive home by yourself and you ask me to give you a ride; I instead drive you to a secluded place and rape you. That would be an unexpected consequence of YOUR irresponsible behavior, am I right?

Bad decisions have consequences. If you didn't want me to rape you, you shouldn't have gotten into my car.

Look, you can come up with all sorts of scenarios and analyze it to death, just use some common sense.
If it were a drunk woman on her own, my advice would be don't accept a ride from a complete stranger, get a cab.

But it isn't a complete stranger that you have to worry about. It's your brother-in-law, your uncle, your neighbor, your co-worker, your best friend's brother, your cousin, maybe someone you think is just a really good friend whom you've known for years. It doesn't require taking a drink or going to his home either. "Risky behavior" for women and girls just involves having men in your life whom you trust. All this victim-blaming and teaching girls how to protect themselves is useless when most rapes are committed by men that we know and trust. If we thought a man was going to rape us, we're not going to be alone in a car with him drunk or sober.

Is it risky for a woman at home alone to meet with a loan officer, a pest control technician, sign a UPS delivery slip at the front door? Or is that risk taking too, since you're putting yourself in a position to be in your home alone with a man whom you don't know? Why should we have different rules if we generally aren't the ones committing the crime?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Approximately 4/5 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
82% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
25% are an intimate.
5% are a relative.

Approximately 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.

7% take place in a school.
13% take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
18% take place in a public area, such as a commercial venue, parking lot, or park

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

 

[TSwizzle]

Look, you can come up with all sorts of scenarios and analyze it to death, just use some common sense.
If it were a drunk woman on her own, my advice would be don't accept a ride from a complete stranger, get a cab.

But it isn't a complete stranger that you have to worry about. It's your brother-in-law, your uncle, your neighbor, your co-worker, your best friend's brother, your cousin, maybe someone you think is just a really good friend whom you've known for years. It doesn't require taking a drink or going to his home either. "Risky behavior" for women and girls just involves having men in your life whom you trust. All this victim-blaming and teaching girls how to protect themselves is useless when most rapes are committed by men that we know and trust. If we thought a man was going to rape us, we're not going to be alone in a car with him drunk or sober.

Is it risky for a woman at home alone to meet with a loan officer, a pest control technician, sign a UPS delivery slip at the front door? Or is that risk taking too, since you're putting yourself in a position to be in your home alone with a man whom you don't know? Why should we have different rules if we generally aren't the ones committing the crime?

Living life has lots of risks attached, not just rape, adjust accordingly.

 

[Toni]

To quote my daughter: fuck that shit.

Well, you still did it. If it wasn't for people like you, there wouldn't need to be slutwalks. Instead of telling your daughter how not to get raped, you should have told men not to rape her.

If men acted like real men and served as decent role models for young men coming up, mothers wouldn't have to worry so much about their daughters' safety.

Also, I realize that you are from Australia and don't speak proper English but you don't seem to understand what the term slut shaming is.

 

[Anne Fidel]

But it isn't a complete stranger that you have to worry about. It's your brother-in-law, your uncle, your neighbor, your co-worker, your best friend's brother, your cousin, maybe someone you think is just a really good friend whom you've known for years. It doesn't require taking a drink or going to his home either. "Risky behavior" for women and girls just involves having men in your life whom you trust. All this victim-blaming and teaching girls how to protect themselves is useless when most rapes are committed by men that we know and trust. If we thought a man was going to rape us, we're not going to be alone in a car with him drunk or sober.

Is it risky for a woman at home alone to meet with a loan officer, a pest control technician, sign a UPS delivery slip at the front door? Or is that risk taking too, since you're putting yourself in a position to be in your home alone with a man whom you don't know? Why should we have different rules if we generally aren't the ones committing the crime?

Living life has lots of risks attached, not just rape, adjust accordingly.

If we're discussing rape, it seems to me that the biggest risk that women take is having any interactions with men. Perhaps men would be the better targets of education regarding rape prevention, as just being born into a family with male members constitutes a risk for women and girls. That's not so much something that one can protect oneself against.

 

[laughing dog]

Many more resources and much more effort has been put forth to educate potential rape victims on how to reduce their chances of being raped. There is no doubt that is valuable. However, those resources and that effort is not focused on the actual problem: people who rape. Compared to the resources and the effort on educating potential rape victims, the resources and efforts to educate potential rapists pales in comparison. Arguing that educating ______ does not eliminate the problem of rape confuses the goal of eliminating rape with the result. If no one felt the need to rape, the behavior of potential rape victims would be moot. The reverse is not true. Asking or demanding that society focus more on the dealing with the attitudes and psychology of potential rapists is a rational response.

 

[bigfield]

Well, you still did it. If it wasn't for people like you, there wouldn't need to be slutwalks. Instead of telling your daughter how not to get raped, you should have told men not to rape her.

If men acted like real men and served as decent role models for young men coming up, mothers wouldn't have to worry so much about their daughters' safety.

It doesn't matter what your intentions were; you did what you tell others not to do: you told your daughter to protect herself when instead you should have told men not to rape. You put the responsibility on her shoulders instead of theirs.

I laugh at the notion of 'real men'. What a ridiculous and transparent attempt at manipulation. Every man is as 'real' as the next, whether he is a horrible shit or the embodiment of kindness.

 

[Achwienichtig]

Many more resources and much more effort has been put forth to educate potential rape victims on how to reduce their chances of being raped. There is no doubt that is valuable. However, those resources and that effort is not focused on the actual problem: people who rape. Compared to the resources and the effort on educating potential rape victims, the resources and efforts to educate potential rapists pales in comparison. Arguing that educating ______ does not eliminate the problem of rape confuses the goal of eliminating rape with the result. If no one felt the need to rape, the behavior of potential rape victims would be moot. The reverse is not true. Asking or demanding that society focus more on the dealing with the attitudes and psychology of potential rapists is a rational response.

I absolutely agree. I think there's a general sense out there that "rapists will be rapists." I am very wary of this attitude. I am generally a believer that people can reform their behavior, even unacceptable sexual behavior (within limits). Educating potential rapists seems like a no-brainer to me.

Besides, isn't the whole attitude that women are responsible for preventing rape just a continuation of misogynistic victim blaming?

 

[TSwizzle]

Living life has lots of risks attached, not just rape, adjust accordingly.

If we're discussing rape, it seems to me that the biggest risk that women take is having any interactions with men.

Most of the time there is no risk.

Perhaps men would be the better targets of education regarding rape prevention,

Perhaps.

as just being born into a family with male members constitutes a risk for women and girls. That's not so much something that one can protect oneself against.

I don't think there is much can be done in these situations.