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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
 
Think about this. A person is very ill and has all kinds of symptoms that appear unrelated. Then they find out that all of the symptoms this person is experiencing is coming from one root cause.
Uh, humanity is not “a person”. I offered an identification of “the” cause of humanity’s possible near term (in geological terms) extinction.
Once this individual takes certain steps to eliminate the cause, his symptoms will miraculously disappear.
Do you propose eliminating intelligence?
Damn … another trumpsucker! 😂
Similarly, it appears that the landscape alternations that have been implemented in our society are not getting to the root cause.
The alterations we have wrought upon the fitness landscape we inhabit, have most certainly NOT been “implemented”, they are mostly unanticipated secondary and tertiary results of our unrelenting quest to grow our warring tribes.
Once we do, all of the ills plaguing mankind will miraculously
Like I previously tried to communicate, societal miracle cures do not exist, never have existed and will never exist for HSS.
 
Think about this. A person is very ill and has all kinds of symptoms that appear unrelated. Then they find out that all of the symptoms this person is experiencing is coming from one root cause.
Uh, humanity is not “a person”. I offered an identification of “the” cause of humanity’s possible near term (in geological terms) extinction.
Humanity is the collective which is comprised of individuals. To use the term "collective" in this context is perfectly fine.
Do you propose eliminating intelligence?
Damn … another trumpsucker! 😂


Similarly, it appears that the landscape alternations that have been implemented in our society are not getting to the root cause.
The alterations we have wrought upon the fitness landscape we inhabit, have most certainly NOT been “implemented”, they are mostly unanticipated secondary and tertiary results of our unrelenting quest to grow our warring tribes.
Warring tribes are just an extension of the dysfunction that exists which creates fear of other groups, religions, and cultures that are not like us. The miracle has not yet happened.
Once we do, all of the ills plaguing mankind will miraculously
Like I previously tried to communicate, societal miracle cures do not exist, never have existed and will never exist for HSS.
You are coming to a premature conclusion with no understanding, which makes your opinion null and void: "By discovering this well- concealed law, and demonstrating its power, a catalyst, so to speak, is introduced into human relations that compels a fantastic change in the direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be called miracles, though they do not transcend the laws of nature.
 
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By discovering this well- concealed law, and demonstrating its power, a catalyst, so to speak, is introduced into human relations that compels a fantastic change in the direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be called miracles, though they do not transcend the laws of nature.
That’s your opinion.
You’re entitled to it, you started this thread.
Sorry for interrupting, please carry on with the miraculous transformation. I am obviously not qualified to comment on it.
 
By discovering this well- concealed law, and demonstrating its power, a catalyst, so to speak, is introduced into human relations that compels a fantastic change in the direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be called miracles, though they do not transcend the laws of nature.
That’s your opinion.
You’re entitled to it, you started this thread.
Sorry for interrupting, please carry on with the miraculous transformation. I am obviously not qualified to comment on it.
That's the first correct thing you've said. lol You are not qualified to comment on it. Thank you for your genuine admission of ignorance. It gives me hope! (y) The problem is that people barge into this thread and tell me that peace is impossible without coming close to understanding the proof. It's a free for all. Any true philosopher is well aware that carefully studying someone's work is first and foremost before commenting on it.
 
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Who… in his right mind or with knowledge of history, would believe it possible that the 20th century will be the time when all war, crime, and every form of evil or hurt in human relations must come to a permanent end? [Note: This is a reminder that the author lived in the 20th century (1918-1991). Though we are well into the 21st century, this discovery has yet to be given a thorough investigation by our world’s leading scientists].
...or, it is an objective and empirical data point that indicates that the author was wrong.

It is NOT possible; The twentieth century had ended, and it didn't happen.

The twenty first century is almost a quarter of the way through, and it doesn't seem like there's any progress whatsoever towards this end; Indeed, in many places we seem further from it than at the close of the twentieth century.

There is no "discovery"; Just an idea that demonstrably cannot work, because humans are not as we might wish them to be.

The utopian future being described here is fundamentally unstable; A rogue individual in such a society could gain massive personal advantage by violently misbehaving, and would anticipate no significant consequences for so doing. So such rogues would inevitably proliferate, until the use of violence became commonplace in opposing them. At which point, you're back where we started.

Enlightened self-interest only goes as far as enlightenment. How, exactly, do you propose to have the entire population hear, agree to, understand, and internalise, your ideals - when we can't even get six people to agree on which pizzas to order? Or from which pizza place? Or whether to have pizza at all, rather than burgers, or tacos, or noodles, or...
 
It is the purpose of this book to reveal this finding — a scientific discovery about the nature of man whose life, as a direct consequence of this mathematical revelation, will be completely revolutionized in every way for his benefit bringing about a transition so utterly amazing that if I were to tell you of all the changes soon to unfold, without demonstrating the cause as to why these must come about, your skepticism would be aroused sufficiently to consider this a work of science fiction for who would believe it possible that all evil (every bit of hurt that exists in human relation) must decline and fall the very moment this discovery is thoroughly understood. This natural law, which reveals a fantastic mankind system, was hidden so successfully behind a camouflage of ostensible truths that it is no wonder the development of our present age was required to find it. By discovering this well- concealed law, and demonstrating its power, a catalyst, so to speak, is introduced into human relations that compels a fantastic change in the direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be called miracles, though they do not transcend the laws of nature. The same nature that permits the most heinous crimes, and all the other evils of human relation, is going to veer so sharply in a different direction that all nations on this planet, once the leaders and their subordinates understand the principles involved, will unite in such a way that no more wars will ever again be possible. If this is difficult to conceive, does it mean you have a desire to dismiss what I have to say as nonsense? If it does, then you have done what I tried to prevent, that is, jumped to a premature conclusion. And the reason must be that you judged such a permanent solution as impossible and therefore not deserving of further consideration, which is a normal reaction, if anything, when my claims are analyzed and compared to our present understanding of human nature.
No, mate. The reason is that you just spent several hundred words trying to persuade me how fucking excellent your idea is, without actually telling me your idea. And then you poisoned the well, by implying that I would only reject this idea because I was being unreasonable and unfair.

Which is the hallmark of the snake-oil salesman.

If you had something to say, you would have said it by now. And if it were as amazing as you claim, it would have convinced me without the sales pitch.

It is quite astonishing, and counter intuitive, to understand that mass and energy are equivalent, and that the totality of these is always constant.

But guess what; Einstein didn't spend hundreds of words of introduction to tell people how mind-blowing and amazing and terrific and world-changing and revolutionary and fantastic and brilliant and insightful his finding was. He didn't try to sell his idea to the world. He just put it out there, and let other people find out for themselves all of the incredible implications and consequences.

Because that's all you need to do, when an idea is not only revolutionary and fantastic, but also true.

It doesn't matter that few people were prepared to believe. It only matters that those who are prepared to try it out, find out for themselves that it works.

Genuinely good ideas don't need evangelists. And the existence of evangelists - people who bang on about the merit of an idea, rather than pushing the idea itself - is a very strong indicator of a bad idea.
 
There are environmental forces that have been shown to create monsters or Mother Teresa's
Point of information:

Mother Teresa was a horrible, horrible monster, who believed that suffering was noble and good, and who applied that belief to the detriment of those she was ostensibly helping.

But she was great at selling herself as having unalloyed virtue, and had the vast power of the Roman Catholic Church to help her in that end.
 
To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
It's much better than the last summary. Overall, you are beginning to get it, which gives me hope, but most people would laugh at this since there's so much more to it. As I said earlier, the economic system has to be revamped because people have been hurt, therefore in order for this principle to work, all hurt in the economic system (and all other areas of human relations) must be removed in order to remove the justification to strike back.

CHAPTER SIX: THE NEW ECONOMIC WORLD

“Something puzzles me very much because it seems under certain conditions this principle can have no effect. If man is compelled to move in the direction of greater satisfaction, and the conditions of the environment cause him as a solution to his particular problem to prefer the lesser of two evils, how is it possible to remove the evil when his choice, no matter what he selects is still evil? Self-preservation is the first law of nature and if he can’t satisfy his needs without hurting others, the knowledge that they will never blame him for this hurt to them can never prevent him from moving in this direction because he has no choice.”

“You are 100% correct because he is already being hurt by the environment and under such conditions he is justified to retaliate.”

“This is the only thing that had me puzzled; otherwise, your reasoning is flawless.”

It is important to understand that in order to solve a problem, even with our basic principle, we must know what we are faced with and in the economic world there are three aspects of hurt. The first is not being able to fulfill our basic needs. The second is the inability to maintain the standard of living that was developed. And the last is to be denied an opportunity, if desired, to improve one’s standard of living.

Before I demonstrate how this hurt in the economic world is removed, it is necessary to remind you of this key fact: Man’s will is not free because he never has a choice, as with aging, and then it is obvious that he is under the normal compulsion of living regardless of what his particular motion at any moment might be, or he has a choice and then is given two or more alternatives of which he is compelled, by his very nature, to prefer the one that gives him greater satisfaction whether it is the lesser of two evils, the greater of two goods, or a good over an evil. The natural law implicit in the two-sided equation cannot prevent man from finding greater satisfaction in hurting others when not to do this makes matters worse for himself as would be the case if he were forced, beyond his control, to lose his source of income and be placed in a position where he could not meet his living expenses or acquire the necessaries of life. Just the possibility that this could happen (this pervasive insecurity) activates and justifies the law of self-preservation to lie, cheat, steal, and even kill if there is no other way to get the money he needs or might need for survival. It is also important to realize that when man is compelled to give up his desire to hurt others because he knows there will be no blame he is not choosing the greater of two goods or the lesser of two evils, but a good over an evil. But if by not hurting others he makes matters worse for himself, then he is compelled to prefer the lesser of two evils and this is what happens where the first two aspects of hurt are concerned. Consequently, if we find ourselves unable to get what we need then we are compelled to blame and even hurt those who have it. An example of this occurs when employees who find their income falling short of the mark because of rising prices, blame their employer for having too much money and strike to take some of it away. The employer, in turn, who has discovered that the strike has lowered his income; and the government, finding itself unable to meet its needs under the present tax structure, blame the people for having too much money and decide to take some of it away by increasing prices and taxes. The people, falling below their needs because of this increase, blame the government and anybody else they can cheat to get back what they lost. The manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers are compelled to lay off their surplus employees when consumption slows down and to prevent this, since there is no way the United States can consume all it produces (I am using the United States as an example since I live here, but this applies to any country that produces more than it consumes), the government is forced to do everything humanly possible to keep its foreign markets open and reduce unnecessary competition; otherwise, a recession and perhaps depression could result. It is true that war keeps millions of people employed, reduces the already overcrowded earth and the chances of a depression, so what is the better choice? Everywhere we look, man is compelled to prefer the lesser of two evils, and under these conditions our basic principle can have no effect. Therefore, to solve our problem since this is the kind of situation that exists in the economic world, it is necessary to remove the first blow. To clarify this, if A is compelled to hurt B because the alternative of not doing this is still worse, then A has no choice but to hurt B, as when the unions strike, when prices and taxes are increased, when lay-offs occur, when government prefers war, etc. But if there is no possibility for A to make matters worse for himself by not hurting B, then this aspect of justification has been removed and it then becomes possible to prevent man from desiring to hurt others when he knows there will be no blame which compels him, beyond his control, to choose a good (not to hurt anybody) over an evil (to do so). Now the question arises at this point: “How can we create an environment that would remove the conditions which make it necessary to select the lesser of two evils as a solution to our problems?”

“I really don’t know, especially since you already said that the basic principle cannot be used here.”

“It can’t be used in a positive, but it can in a negative sense. Obviously, before the removal of all blame can prevent man from desiring to strike a first blow which is to gain (to improve his standard of living) at the expense of others, it is absolutely necessary to remove the possibility that an individual is necessarily hurting others in order to prevent himself from becoming a loser (from going below his standard of living), and there is only one way this can be accomplished. Let me explain what I mean.
 
Who… in his right mind or with knowledge of history, would believe it possible that the 20th century will be the time when all war, crime, and every form of evil or hurt in human relations must come to a permanent end? [Note: This is a reminder that the author lived in the 20th century (1918-1991). Though we are well into the 21st century, this discovery has yet to be given a thorough investigation by our world’s leading scientists].
...or, it is an objective and empirical data point that indicates that the author was wrong.

It is NOT possible; The twentieth century had ended, and it didn't happen.

The twenty first century is almost a quarter of the way through, and it doesn't seem like there's any progress whatsoever towards this end; Indeed, in many places we seem further from it than at the close of the twentieth century.

There is no "discovery"; Just an idea that demonstrably cannot work, because humans are not as we might wish them to be.

The utopian future being described here is fundamentally unstable; A rogue individual in such a society could gain massive personal advantage by violently misbehaving, and would anticipate no significant consequences for so doing. So such rogues would inevitably proliferate, until the use of violence became commonplace in opposing them. At which point, you're back where we started.

Enlightened self-interest only goes as far as enlightenment. How, exactly, do you propose to have the entire population hear, agree to, understand, and internalise, your ideals - when we can't even get six people to agree on which pizzas to order? Or from which pizza place? Or whether to have pizza at all, rather than burgers, or tacos, or noodles, or...
You are completely wrong. Under certain conditions (which I am demonstrating) conscience will not allow anyone to take advantage in this way when all the hurt to them is being removed. Justification is necessary whenever we do anything that could hurt another.
 

Yet as determinism is defined, there are no alternate actions in any given instance that an option is realized, where the option that is taken is necessarily taken.

And, one again, you just commit the modal fallacy. Every single time you do this. As I’ve noted, necessarily true propositions are those that are true at all possible words (possible-worlds heuristic of modal logic). Contingently true propositions are those that are true at some possible worlds, false at others. “Astronaut moving through space” is of the latter type, contingently true, hence it is, was, and always will be the case (principle of the fixity of modal status) that the astronaut could have chosen not to travel through space (possible non-actual world).

There is no modal fallacy. A definition of determinism is given.

The terms and conditions of the given definition of determinism does not permit alternate actions.

If you claim that alternate actions are possible, that you can do this, that or something else in any given instance, this calim contradicts the terms and conditions of determinism.

In which case we don't have determinism, you have Libertarian free will.

You can't have it both ways, you can't have both the inevitability of determinism (necessity) and being able choose any one of a number of options at any point in time.

If that's what you are trying to argue, the modal fallacy is yours.
 
If your thesis is right, eventually someone will be able to offer a concise summation
QFT. Stop banging on about how great the idea is, or how mean we are if we don't accept it as the TruthTM, and tell us the idea.
When did I ever say how mean people are if they don't accept the truth? I'm trying very hard to explain this work in a way that won't create more confusion and disbelief. Give me a break, will you?
 
It is the purpose of this book to reveal this finding — a scientific discovery about the nature of man whose life, as a direct consequence of this mathematical revelation, will be completely revolutionized in every way for his benefit bringing about a transition so utterly amazing that if I were to tell you of all the changes soon to unfold, without demonstrating the cause as to why these must come about, your skepticism would be aroused sufficiently to consider this a work of science fiction for who would believe it possible that all evil (every bit of hurt that exists in human relation) must decline and fall the very moment this discovery is thoroughly understood. This natural law, which reveals a fantastic mankind system, was hidden so successfully behind a camouflage of ostensible truths that it is no wonder the development of our present age was required to find it. By discovering this well- concealed law, and demonstrating its power, a catalyst, so to speak, is introduced into human relations that compels a fantastic change in the direction our nature has been traveling, performing what will be called miracles, though they do not transcend the laws of nature. The same nature that permits the most heinous crimes, and all the other evils of human relation, is going to veer so sharply in a different direction that all nations on this planet, once the leaders and their subordinates understand the principles involved, will unite in such a way that no more wars will ever again be possible. If this is difficult to conceive, does it mean you have a desire to dismiss what I have to say as nonsense? If it does, then you have done what I tried to prevent, that is, jumped to a premature conclusion. And the reason must be that you judged such a permanent solution as impossible and therefore not deserving of further consideration, which is a normal reaction, if anything, when my claims are analyzed and compared to our present understanding of human nature.
No, mate. The reason is that you just spent several hundred words trying to persuade me how fucking excellent your idea is, without actually telling me your idea. And then you poisoned the well, by implying that I would only reject this idea because I was being unreasonable and unfair.
People are only unfair when they haven't really dived into the work to see how the extension creates the blueprint. Without it, it is half-baked. Get it?
Which is the hallmark of the snake-oil salesman.

If you had something to say, you would have said it by now. And if it were as amazing as you claim, it would have convinced me without the sales pitch.

It is quite astonishing, and counter intuitive, to understand that mass and energy are equivalent, and that the totality of these is always constant.

But guess what; Einstein didn't spend hundreds of words of introduction to tell people how mind-blowing and amazing and terrific and world-changing and revolutionary and fantastic and brilliant and insightful his finding was. He didn't try to sell his idea to the world. He just put it out there, and let other people find out for themselves all of the incredible implications and consequences.
You gotta be kidding. This author tried during his lifetime to put it out there, but no one would listen because they didn't believe his claims were possible. After 60 years, the same thing is happening in these type forums. You aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt by listening to the entire demonstration. You cut me off denouncing that this is snake oil because I'm not explaining it quick enough for your satisfaction. If you look back, many true discoverers had a difficult time getting people to listen.

Even when it comes to Edison's early demonstration of the incandescent lightbulb, there was lots of skepticism. It’s fascinating how innovation often involves overcoming initial doubts and setbacks, don’t you think?


It doesn't matter that few people were prepared to believe. It only matters that those who are prepared to try it out, find out for themselves that it works.

Genuinely good ideas don't need evangelists. And the existence of evangelists - people who bang on about the merit of an idea, rather than pushing the idea itself - is a very strong indicator of a bad idea.
Just because I am committed to trying, in whatever way possible, to bring this knowledge to light knowing that it can help our world immensely doesn't mean I'm an evangelist that is trying to get people to believe something that has no real basis in truth.
 
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Yet as determinism is defined, there are no alternate actions in any given instance that an option is realized, where the option that is taken is necessarily taken.

And, one again, you just commit the modal fallacy. Every single time you do this. As I’ve noted, necessarily true propositions are those that are true at all possible words (possible-worlds heuristic of modal logic). Contingently true propositions are those that are true at some possible worlds, false at others. “Astronaut moving through space” is of the latter type, contingently true, hence it is, was, and always will be the case (principle of the fixity of modal status) that the astronaut could have chosen not to travel through space (possible non-actual world).

There is no modal fallacy. A definition of determinism is given.

A definition of HARD determinism is given, by you. As noted upthread, your whole argument is question-begging. My argument is also deterministic — soft determinism. The whole point in dispute is whether HARD determinism or SOFT determinism more accurately captures reality. You cannot legitimately incorporate your conclusion into your premise and claim victory.
If that's what you are trying to argue, the modal fallacy is yours.
It is you who have confused necessarily true propositions with contingently true propositions, hence the modal fallacy is yours, not mine. What you are arguing for is called modal collapse.

So, two fallacies: circular reasoning and modal fallacy.
 
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