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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
When Dahmer is not blamed for what he does, he will still derive greater satisfaction from murdering people because it doesn't matter whether he is blamed or not, he just really likes killing people and doesn't care what others think. Not even stopping to try to make excuses for it Dahmer doesn't acknowledge that anyone would or should respond to his actions. Dahmer strikes the first blow not on response to someone's posture, but in response to the part of him that says truthfully "it feels good to murder". He gets the greatest satisfaction by murdering them, so clearly he strikes whatever blows he pleases to. When that happens, we should probably do something because we know someone is actively responsible for putting friends and family in the ground, and possibly us in the future.
 
When this is universally understood
lol.
Was there no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding?
FFS, you can’t get universal understanding that water is wet.
 
To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
When Dahmer is not blamed for what he does, he will still derive greater satisfaction from murdering people because it doesn't matter whether he is blamed or not, he just really likes killing people and doesn't care what others think.
It's very true that in our present environment Dahmer probably wouldn't have cared whether he was blamed or not (the cat was already out of the bag, so to speak). But if you would go back to his birth, his choices, in the direction of greater satisfaction, might have been completely different in a different environment. Since we cannot go back in time, we will never know if Dahmer's choices would have been the same. That goes for any serial killer or anyone that moves in this direction for satisfaction. The question is: Were these people simply born that way or was their psyche somehow damaged in their formative years that then gave expression through violence? It will take a new generation to prove that the environment shift from blame to no blame will prevent the type of criminals that are filling our prisons. Until then, we must blame and punish to protect society. Even while we are transitioning from one environment to another, if someone is mentally ill and is a threat, they will need to be confined, but without blame.

Anytime a citizen would hurt somebody physically, or give a command to hurt others, we would know immediately that he is sick and would commit him to a hospital until he is able to resume his normal life. We would do the same if a dog was to bite somebody — take him off the streets. However, even though it is very unlikely that a citizen would become mentally sick under the changed conditions, we would be prepared for any eventuality. Should this be the case his family would have to assume responsibility for him, but no one would blame or punish him in any way even if it was necessary to confine him to an institution for treatment. It is important to remember that when all the sources of hurt in society are permanently removed, mental illness will be virtually wiped from the face of the earth.
Not even stopping to try to make excuses for it Dahmer doesn't acknowledge that anyone would or should respond to his actions. Dahmer strikes the first blow not on response to someone's posture, but in response to the part of him that says truthfully "it feels good to murder". He gets the greatest satisfaction by murdering them, so clearly he strikes whatever blows he pleases to. When that happens, we should probably do something because we know someone is actively responsible for putting friends and family in the ground, and possibly us in the future.
His motive to hurt people has already been established. He strikes the first blow because somewhere along the line he was able to justify what he was doing whether he had misplaced rage, or whether he felt mistreated by the system and took it personally. I did read that his upbringing didn't show that he was abused in any way, which means that the messages he received could have come from society at large. We will never know exactly why he derived satisfaction from killing and cannibalizing his victims. But again this does not mean that under a changed environment he would have acted out in the same way. I hope you refrain from jumping to conclusions that human conduct remains the same when it comes to striking a first blow that cannot be justified under the new conditions. This will only prevent progress toward a much more humane and safer world for all of us.
 
When this is universally understood
lol.
Was there no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding?
FFS, you can’t get universal understanding that water is wet.
There is no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding. Confirmation by science will promote these changes without any force at all.
 
When this is universally understood
lol.
Was there no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding?
FFS, you can’t get universal understanding that water is wet.
There is no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding. Confirmation by science will promote these changes without any force at all.
Except science doesn’t “confirm” things. Nor does it disprove them.
 
When this is universally understood
lol.
Was there no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding?
FFS, you can’t get universal understanding that water is wet.
There is no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding. Confirmation by science will promote these changes without any force at all.
Except science doesn’t “confirm” things. Nor does it disprove them.
Who confirmed Mendel's discovery, or Edison's for that matter? Just because this discovery doesn't involve objects does not mean it cannot be confirmed by those in authority (that have influence) who could be instrumental in not only passing this along but figuring out how to get this transition started. The author expressed how this could be done. Maybe there are better ways. This in itself doesn't change the fact that the core of this discovery is undeniable. I should not be snipping parts of the book, but I can see that no one will read anything too lengthy. Too much effort I guess when they don't know if it's a waste of time. If they knew it was an actual discovery, they would jump at the chance.

CHAPTER SIX: THE NEW ECONOMIC WORLD

When any agreement is made in the new world, the people who are a party to it are saying, “I am satisfied with this agreement and will never blame you should you violate it.” If you don’t want to become a citizen of this new world, don’t want to receive this guarantee, don’t want to agree never to blame, then you don’t have to sign this agreement and will continue living in your present environment. But should you sign this agreement, how is it possible for you to desire breaking it by not turning the other cheek when turning the other cheek offers greater satisfaction as this is the kind of punishment those who strike a first blow cannot tolerate. The truck driver wanted to be punished for doing what he knows was his responsibility because this would give him greater satisfaction. As was explained in Chapter Two, “The knowledge that there will be no consequences presents consequences that are still worse, making it impossible to consider this hurt as a preferable alternative.” However, in order for the new citizen not to be blamed by his government, and in order for his government not to be blamed by the governments of other nations, the political and military leaders of the world must become our first citizens. How is it possible for political leaders to stop blaming other political leaders and the people in their country unless the leaders have received the guarantee and signed the agreement? Therefore, the world leaders must take their examination first because it is only by the new citizen knowing he will never be blamed by the government or the laws of his country no matter what he does to hurt others that will prevent him from desiring to do that for which punishment came into existence, taking for granted, of course, that the other source of justification, being made to go below his standard of living, has already been removed. This will prevent the possibility of further wars because the very people who have the power to start one will be stopped by the guarantee which denies them any justification and by their realization that there will be no retaliation by those who must turn the other cheek for their satisfaction. When the time arrives for the leaders of the world to sign this agreement, which will be done simultaneously, they will be extremely happy and anxious for this new world to begin. But remember, ironically enough, under the changed conditions the leaders are prevented from hurting others not because there will be no retaliation, but primarily because they will get greater satisfaction in being a part of this fantastic new world.

Once the transition gets officially launched, that is, as soon as the leaders have become citizens by passing their examination it will be mathematically impossible for war to continue or begin again and the greatest transition in the history of mankind will be well on its way. Assuming that you fully understand what it means that man’s will is not free, the next step in our blueprint (our diagram of how it is now possible to remove all evil from our lives) is to remove from around the entire earth, regardless of who gets displaced, all those people who are in any way associated with blame including the leaders and their subordinates (remember, everything is exactly the same except for the written test and the IBM offices); politicians, governors, senators, all the way up to the President and his Cabinet. Everybody notwithstanding gets displaced if their manner of earning a living is the least bit redolent of blame. Is it humanly possible to believe that the solution to the problem of war and crime involves the end of all government or, to phrase it more appropriately since many aspects of government will continue to function, the end of all authority and control? If this is true (which is not yet proven), could the commander in chief find any satisfaction in being denied the privilege of making speeches as to what he is going to accomplish even though this denial results in the very thing all the speeches in the world could never bring about? Is it not true that if the President truly cares about ending all war, could he possibly desire to tell others what to do when it can be revealed in a mathematical manner that such authority would only result in the very war he is making efforts to prevent? If every member of the government who is engaged in telling others what is right and wrong should learn that the most harmonious relations imaginable will exist on earth the moment all government comes to an end, are these people given a choice if this is really what they want? Because this is a very crucial point it is imperative that you completely understand what is meant by the mathematical corollary, Thou Shall Not Blame, so I suggest that you reread the second chapter to fully understand why any person who judges what is right for another is absolutely wrong (as two plus two equals five is wrong) since it strikes the first blow and demonstrates how any judgment of another, before something is done, is an advance accusation which offers unconscious justification to do what is criticized by the standard imposed in the tacit blame. If you know that you can prevent the very thing you do not want by being a certain way, do you have a choice as to which direction you must go for greater satisfaction? The very first thing this book reveals in a mathematical manner is that no individual or group of individuals can ever again desire to govern another because it will be seen that not governing is truly better for themselves. For this reason, it is impossible for government to discover the solution when this entails the removal of all government. This does not mean that the politicians are responsible for what now exists, but their removal is necessary for the cure which will come about of their own free will. At that moment my friend interrupted...

“You can’t be serious. You don’t expect the government of the United States to discharge all her troops and leave the field to communism.”

“The sole purpose of disarming our defenses, as other countries can disarm theirs, is simply because, under the conditions just described, no country can find satisfaction in physically hurting those who refuse to hurt them in return for doing what must be considered a compulsion beyond control. But the people who are on the offensive know that this desire to hurt those who refuse to fight back is not beyond their control, and when they fully realize that their desire to strike a blow must be excused without the possibility of any justification, they are given no choice but to relinquish this desire to hurt others with the use of weapons.”

“Do you honestly believe that crime will cease when the police are removed? I think the crooks would have a ball.”

“You must bear in mind that you also thought removing blame and punishment would allow people to take advantage, but this is not true, so you must not jump to conclusions. We are working the problem backwards, and until other facts are revealed, certain things might appear ridiculous.

To render these evils impossibilities, it is first necessary (this is only the beginning of the solution) to remove the forces that try to prevent war and crime through threats of retaliation, because this kind of effort unconsciously motivates and justifies the very things these forces are trying to prevent. Now how was it possible for government to ever find the solution when the very first step required the dismissal of all forms of government?”

“Say, is this supposed to satisfy our politicians? Do you expect them to calmly sit back while you take away their jobs?”

“Well let me show you that every person who gets displaced, regardless of who he is or what is his income, will be completely satisfied. I shall ask all our politicians a very serious question. ‘Gentlemen, would you have any objection to my removing every possibility of war and crime, which would render your services absolutely useless, provided the income you are now receiving would never decrease or stop as long as you live, although it could be increased?’ Well, I kind of surprised you with that question, didn’t I?”

“You sure did. You mean that every person who gets displaced will never have his income stopped or decreased no matter how much he is earning?”

“That isn’t all. I mean that every person who is employed at the time the transition gets under way, this includes all those who will be displaced, will be guaranteed their accustomed income for the rest of their lives, less taxes, of course. This not only includes the largest, but also the smallest incomes, such as those from unemployment compensation, welfare, and relief.”

“Be honest with me? Does this scheme have anything to do with socialism or communism?”

“Of course not, first because competition will still exist, and second because it is impossible to dictate to another what to do without blaming him for not doing it, which would be required under communism or socialism.”

“But how is it possible to guarantee a businessman that his income will never decrease when competition can very easily do the job?”

“At the moment let’s not be concerned with how I’m going to accomplish this, but with everyone’s reaction to my doing it. Wouldn’t it be a wonderful feeling to know that your income is secure, that it will never be stopped or decreased, only increased?”

“I’m satisfied, but I can think of plenty of people who would not be, like the insurance companies who make their living on the insecurity that exists, and the taxpayers whose jobs are secure without this security, but who might feel they will be overburdened with increased taxation.”

“But supposing the insurance companies, instead of making less money, make more than they ever dreamed possible; and supposing the taxpayers, instead of paying more, end up paying less, what would you say then, my fine feathered friend?”

“By the way, does this hold true for all other countries? Will they also be guaranteed their income never to stop or decrease just as long as each individual shall live?”

“Naturally. Aren’t we all God’s children?”

In spite of the fact that many people will not be happy about losing their profession, they will be forced to look for something else because their services will no longer be needed. Soon to be displaced are judges, juries, lawyers, the entire penal system, crime investigators, intelligence agencies, liability insurance, every kind of license granting permission to do something, all printed forms to check on your honesty, credit cards (all but the IBM), travelers checks, money orders, the banks as a place to safeguard money, and all tax adjusters. The unions will be displaced not only because they blame employers for not paying enough wages, but also because they try to prevent abuses to employees using force. Also displaced are all collection and credit investigating agencies. The first blames someone for not paying his bills and the second checks him in advance to see if he will. When a creditor tries to get his money by sending collection notices, he blames his debtors and gives them unconscious justification to shirk this responsibility. The debtors will be permitted to hurt their creditor if they want to, but they won’t want to under the changed conditions. Knowing in advance that the creditor will never ask them again for what they owe him since they know he will consider their not paying him back a compulsion over which they have no control — even though they know it is not beyond their control — they will be compelled, of their own free will, to desire paying back every penny since it gives them no satisfaction to be excused when every bit of justification has been removed. Personnel departments and employment agencies are displaced because they are employed to screen an applicant for a job, which shows a distrust of the applicant’s honesty and blames him for being dishonest about his qualifications. A great many employers do not want to hire certain types such as Jews, Hispanics, Blacks, etc., and the agency screens this aspect also. Whatever the reason, since blame is present in some form, these agencies get displaced. It is obvious that an employer is anxious to get the best possible employees for the jobs that are available, which is the reason he screens his applicants. However, this screening is a definite form of tacit blame which justifies any efforts to lie in order to get the position. But when an applicant knows that he is not going to be questioned as to his qualifications; when he knows that he will never be blamed regardless of how many mistakes he makes; that he will never be criticized or punished by being fired, he is given no choice but to forgo any job for which there is the slightest doubt in his mind that he may not be able to handle. Therefore, by removing this tacit blame every individual who seeks employment is compelled to prefer developing a skill so that he can apply for a job with the confidence that he will never hurt anyone due to his lack of ability.

>snip>

For the very first time a person’s formal education cannot be used here as a standard to determine the validity of the knowledge being presented regardless of his position or rank, since every relation is absolutely undeniable. This book is an S.O.S. for those who have the capacity to perceive undeniable relations and can be objective in their analysis; otherwise, those in power will laugh at and criticize what they cannot understand. As soon as this discovery is confirmed valid by the world’s leading scientists, it will not take long before the Great Transition can begin.

During the transition more and more people will be displaced from their jobs. The manufacturers of war equipment will be out of work, as well as those who make burglar alarms, safes, vaults, armored cars, locks and keys. Even cash registers that are designed to check on the honesty of cashiers will no longer be needed. Also displaced in due time since nobody will be spending money in that direction are private and public eyes, floor walkers, security guards, and all licensing departments because they blame individuals for being unqualified by refusing to give them a license. We can continue to spend in this direction if we want to, just as a businessman can continue to hire floor walkers, but when everyone becomes citizens of the new world, how is it possible to want to when this serves no purpose, and the money could be used to improve our standard of living? However, the lawmakers will not be completely displaced because they will serve a useful purpose. They will have the job of analyzing every possibility of hurt that could occur, and make it known. Whereas before we were controlled by the fear of punishment which allowed those who thought they could beat the laws to attempt things without any regard to who got hurt, we are now prevented from desiring to disobey a law that is just because the fear of being excused for hurting others offers no satisfaction when all the principles are understood.

As these miraculous changes become a reality religion comes to an end along with evil because one was the complement of the other. Religion came into existence out of necessity, but when all evil declines and falls and God reveals Himself as the creator as well as the deliverer of all evil, it must also, out of necessity, come to an end. It is important to recognize that religion gets displaced only because mankind will no longer need its services since God, our Creator (this world is no accident), is answering our prayers. Of what value is having an institution that asks mankind to have faith in God, to have faith that one day God will reveal that He is a reality, when He does this by answering our prayers and delivering us from all evil? Is it possible for a minister to preach against sin when there is no further possibility of committing a sin? Is it possible to desire telling others what is right when it is mathematically impossible for them to do what is wrong? However, there is no mathematical standard as to what is right and wrong in human conduct except this hurting of others, and once this is removed, once it becomes impossible to desire hurting another human being, then there will be no need for all those schools, religious or otherwise, that have been teaching us how to cope with a hostile environment that will no longer be. In fact, since anyone who tells others how to live or what is wrong with their conduct blames them in advance for doing otherwise — which is a judgment of what is right for someone else — all sermonizing and the giving of unasked for advice are displaced. You see, this discovery draws a mathematical line of demarcation between hurt that is real and hurt that exists only in the imagination. The hurt of ridicule and criticism is real, but in the world of free will there existed many forms of hurt that justified ridicule and criticism. When the hurt that motivated this behavior is removed, then there can be no justification which means that any ridicule and criticism that exists thereafter strikes a first blow, but this is controlled by the realization that it will never be blamed or punished. Consequently, there is no further need to tell others what to do.

You may still desire going to church or synagogue, which is your business, but how is it possible to want to continue paying a religious organization when your money can be used to improve your standard of living? For the first time the members of a congregation realizing that God is everywhere, not just in churches and synagogues, and realizing further that all evil is coming to a permanent end, will prefer spending their money in a different direction. Religion will be reluctant to give up the pivotal role it has played for thousands of years, but how is it possible for these theologians to object to the very things they have been unsuccessfully trying to accomplish without revealing that they don’t want mankind to be delivered from all evil? This does not mean that religion has not served an important function in man’s development. We could not have reached this turning point had it not been for our religious institutions, but we are at last shedding the final stage of the rocket that has given mankind its thrust up to this point. The great humor and the very reason religion could never approve of this work, in spite of its purpose, is because it would be forced to relinquish what has always been a source of tremendous satisfaction There is something else that annoys religion because it expects the Messiah to look like Christ or some other historical figure, and that he will come to earth not through ordinary channels. Someone who would claim to have solved the problem of evil could easily be mistaken as a false prophet or even ethe antichrist. It may be difficult for the faithful to entertain the idea that the promised Messiah may not come in bodily form but rather as a divine law which has the power to prevent what manmade laws and institutions could never accomplish. To some, this suggestion may be viewed as an unpardonable offense because it appears blasphemous. It may be impossible for those who adhere to the literal translation of the Bible, or any other sacred text, to consider the possibility that peace might come through an unexpected source, although still in accordance with God’s will. Even if I had never made this discovery, it would come to light sooner or later because what is revealed is a definite part of the real world, not a figment of the imagination. Science will have to take the lead in affirming the accuracy of these principles before they can be applied worldwide.
 
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To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
It's much better than the last summary. Overall, you are beginning to get it, which gives me hope, but most people would laugh at this since there's so much more to it. As I said earlier, the economic system has to be revamped because people have been hurt, therefore in order for this principle to work, all hurt in the economic system (and all other areas of human relations) must be removed in order to remove the justification to strike back.
Peacegirl, I noticed you thanked DBT for his latest post. I don’t know why. He’s a hard determinist. That means he thinks what we do today was pre-set in the past, all the way back to the big bang. This is the opposite of your author, who says “all we have is the present.” Hard determinism, basically, is a theory of just the opposite — it says that all we have is the past.

Your author’s argument, by contrast, certainly has elements that are consistent with compatibilism — such as, for example, that no one can makes us do, what we don’t want to do — unless, presumably, one holds a gun to our heads. That is a compatibilist position. But, fine, you don’t have to call your argument compatibilist. There are other arguments on offer, such as libertarianism and neo-Humean compatibilism. Call your argument something else, because after all the author himself argues that it is completely novel.

As to your argument itself, before you go racing ahead, understand that it is a SUMMARY, which necessarily leaves out details. What would help now is to formalize the argument — to turn it into a set of clear premises with a conclusion. Remember, if the conclusion logically follows from the premises, the argument is valid. But that’s not enough. For an argument to go through, it must be sound — the conclusion must logically follow from the premises, and all the premises must be TRUE.

Alas, even THAT, often, is not enough. Sometimes a sound argument may be discovered that have hidden premises. When those premises are uncovered, it may turn out that one or more of them is false, rendering the argument once again unsound. And even if all the hidden premises turn out to be true, it may be that one or more of the premises that were believed to be true turn out actually to be false, once more rendering the argument unsound.
 
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When this is universally understood
lol.
Was there no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding?
FFS, you can’t get universal understanding that water is wet.
There is no mechanism specified for forcing this universal understanding. Confirmation by science will promote these changes without any force at all.
Except science doesn’t “confirm” things. Nor does it disprove them.
Who confirmed Mendel's discovery …

Mendel’s discovery is only partly correct. It was once believed to be wholly correct, and now it’s not. Science never absolutely confirms anything because more discoveries are always being made that cause scientists to adjust their theories and often even their assumptions. Newton’s “laws” were “true” for hundreds of years, until, presto, they weren’t, in the realms of the very small and the very fast. They are still useful for everyday work, though.
 
It gets even worse than that, because while Newton’s “laws” fail at the very small (quantum) level and at the high-speed (relativistic) level, quantum theory and relativity theory disagree with each other. So either one or both of these theories is wrong at some level. And this is why you should avoid talking about “confirmation” as a scientific enterprise.
 
You should also keep in mind that determinism itself fails at the quantum level, though here again this is only true under wave-function collapse interpretations, or meta-theories, of QM. On non-collapse meta-theories, determinism is restored. You see, science is ever so much more complicated than is generally understood, and it’s definitely wrapped up with philosophy.
 
To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
It's much better than the last summary. Overall, you are beginning to get it, which gives me hope, but most people would laugh at this since there's so much more to it. As I said earlier, the economic system has to be revamped because people have been hurt, therefore in order for this principle to work, all hurt in the economic system (and all other areas of human relations) must be removed in order to remove the justification to strike back.
Peacegirl, I noticed you thanked DBT for his latest post. I don’t know why. He’s a hard determinist. That means he thinks what we do today was pre-set in the past, all the way back to the big bang. This is the opposite of your author, who says “all we have is the present.” Hard determinism, basically, is a theory of just the opposite — it says that all we have is the past.
Looking back, it was preset or predestined when it is realized that the choices made throughout history could not have been otherwise. But we can't say, before something is done, that it has to be a certain way before it even takes place. That's the confusion that this author was trying to correct regarding the definition. But just because nothing is set in stone before it's even done does not mean we have a free choice. In reality, we don't. Being able to contemplate doesn't give us a free choice either. It just gives us the ability to analyze different possibilities before making a choice, but the choice itself, once it's made, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE.
Your author’s argument, by contrast, certainly has elements that are consistent with compatibilism — such as, for example, that no one can makes us do, what we don’t want to do — unless, presumably, one holds a gun to our heads.
I never said that. Even if we had a gun to our head, we still have a choice to make, although a difficult one. When a person says, "You gave me no choice", he doesn't mean he really doesn't have a choice; it's just that the choice is so obviously extreme that it feels as if he has no choice. No one could make the person with a gun to his head give up information if by doing so, his family would be killed. It all depends on the circumstance that determines which choice is the most preferable in any given situation. It doesn't change the direction (toward greater satisfaction).
That is a compatibilist position. But, fine, you don’t have to call your argument compatibilist. There are other arguments on offer, such as libertarianism and neo-Humean compatibilism. Call your argument something else, because after all the author himself argues that it is completely novel.

As to your argument itself, before you go racing ahead, understand that it is a SUMMARY, which necessarily leaves out details. What would help now is to formalize the argument — to turn it into a set of clear premises with a conclusion. Remember, if the conclusion logically follows from the premises, the argument is valid. But that’s not enough. For an argument to go through, it must be sound — the conclusion must logically follow from the premises, and all the premises must be TRUE.

Alas, even THAT, often, is not enough. Sometimes a sound argument may be discovered that have hidden premises. When those premises are uncovered, it may turn out that one or more of them is false, rendering the argument once again unsound. And even if all the hidden premises turn out to be true, it may be that one or more of the premises that were believed to be true turn out actually to be false, once more rendering the argument unsound.
 
Looking back, it was preset or predestined when it is realized that the choices made throughout history could not have been otherwise. But we can't say, before something is done, that it has to be a certain way before it even takes place. That's the confusion that this author was trying to correct regarding the definition. But just because nothing is set in stone before it's even done does not mean we have a free choice. In reality, we don't. Being able to contemplate doesn't give us a free choice either. It just gives us the ability to analyze different possibilities before making a choice, but the choice itself, once it's made, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE.

So you assert, without evidence or argument, unless you think ALL CAPS is an argument. DBT commits one modal fallacy, conflating contingency with necessity, and you commit another: violation of the principle of modal fixity. All necessarily true propositions are timelessly true, as are all contingently true propositions. Put another way, contingent propositions are necessarily contingently true, and necessary propositions are necessarily necessary. If yesterday I ordered Coke, it remains true today, and will always remain true, that I could have ordered a Pepsi instead. Basically, as I indicated upthread, the “could not have done otherwise” argument that hard determinists also use collapses to “did not do otherwise,” because there is only one time line, and “did not do otherwise” is simply compatibilism.
 
To summarize, what you seem to be saying is that we need a new definition of determinism, not the definition that is traditionally used, which is that a combination of past events combined with the laws of physics cause events to happen without deviation, including human actions. This is the hard determinist position that DBT espouses, that human will is not free because what we do now, is determined by the past. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that we lack free not because of that kind of determinism, but because of a different kind, which is our inner nature which compels us to move in the direction of what we believe to be greater satisfaction, whether it is or not. Is that correct?
You mentioned the two sides (the fact that nothing can force a person to do anything against his will and the fact that we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment, but you didn’t explain how the two-sided equation works when these two principles are brought together. And what do you mean by “whether it is or not?”

Nothing can force a person to do anything against his will, and we are constantly moving in the direction of greater satisfaction from moment to moment. When this is universally understood, no one will be blamed for anything they do. When this happens, no one will derive greater satisfaction from hurting another, because he will no longer be able to make excuses for his behavior, since no one is blaming him for it. Unable to make excuses, he will have to take full responsibility for what he does. When this happens, no one will find that striking a first blow, or harming another in any way, provides greater satisfaction. So, no one will strike a first blow or harm another. When that happens, no one will retaliate, since there will be nothing and no one to retaliate against.
It's much better than the last summary. Overall, you are beginning to get it, which gives me hope, but most people would laugh at this since there's so much more to it. As I said earlier, the economic system has to be revamped because people have been hurt, therefore in order for this principle to work, all hurt in the economic system (and all other areas of human relations) must be removed in order to remove the justification to strike back.
Peacegirl, I noticed you thanked DBT for his latest post. I don’t know why. He’s a hard determinist. That means he thinks what we do today was pre-set in the past, all the way back to the big bang. This is the opposite of your author, who says “all we have is the present.” Hard determinism, basically, is a theory of just the opposite — it says that all we have is the past.
I did thank him because I agreed with what he was saying. Looking back, our choices were predetermined. It could not have been otherwise when it is realized that the choices made throughout history were part of the continued causal chain of life, but again, I'm using the term "cause" lightly. If you understand what I have been saying, we are not caused by antecedent events. We are remembering past events and using them to decide which options are more preferable in the present. We can't say, before something is done, that due to deterministic forces, we are caused to make a certain choice even if we are not consenting to it. This is the confusion that the author was trying to clear up regarding the definition. Bear in mind, once again, that just because nothing is set in stone before it's even done does not mean we have free will. We do not. Being able to contemplate between alternatives doesn't give us a free choice either. It just gives us the ability to analyze possible outcomes, but the choice itself, once made, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE. Only one choice is possible each and every moment, which feels unintuitive to most people who say, "What do you mean I don't have a free choice", but in actuality we don't, which is the very reason will is not free.
Your author’s argument, by contrast, certainly has elements that are consistent with compatibilism — such as, for example, that no one can makes us do, what we don’t want to do — unless, presumably, one holds a gun to our heads.
I never said that. Even if we had a gun to our head, we still have a choice, although a difficult one. When a person says, "You gave me no choice", he doesn't mean he really didn't have a choice; it's just that the choice was so obviously extreme that it felt as if he had no choice. Depending on the circumstance, a person may do what the perpetrator with a gun to his head wants, or he may not. For example, no one could make the person with a gun to his head give up information, if by doing so his family would be killed instantly. It all depends on the circumstances that determine which choice is the most preferable in any given situation. It doesn't change the direction (toward greater satisfaction) that life takes us. This is an invariable law that has no exceptions.
That is a compatibilist position. But, fine, you don’t have to call your argument compatibilist. There are other arguments on offer, such as libertarianism and neo-Humean compatibilism. Call your argument something else, because after all the author himself argues that it is completely novel.
His discovery is novel, but determinism is not. It is only tweaked to be more accurate. We are not being caused, by an external force, to do what we do which implies a choice is set even if it's against our will. It seems like you are defending compatibilism even after I explained why a semantic shift in the phrase "free will" doesn't cut it. It isn't even logical to say we have both free will and determinism; we cannot do otherwise and not do otherwise, which is the issue that is under debate. We can't be alive and dead at the same time either. The pressing question remains: Are we free to do otherwise, or are we not? If you understand that every single moment of time, we are moving away from dissatisfaction of some kind to greater satisfaction than what the previous position offers, you will see that there is no room for freedom of the will whatsoever. This has been difficult, I realize, because of the way determinism is presently defined. I hope you and others will try to understand why determinism (the way it's correctly defined) is the solution to many of the world's problems. This is not about who is right and who is wrong; it is about envisioning the kind of world we all want and hope for!
As to your argument itself, before you go racing ahead, understand that it is a SUMMARY, which necessarily leaves out details. What would help now is to formalize the argument — to turn it into a set of clear premises with a conclusion. Remember, if the conclusion logically follows from the premises, the argument is valid. But that’s not enough. For an argument to go through, it must be sound — the conclusion must logically follow from the premises, and all the premises must be TRUE.

Alas, even THAT, often, is not enough. Sometimes a sound argument may be discovered that have hidden premises. When those premises are uncovered, it may turn out that one or more of them is false, rendering the argument once again unsound. And even if all the hidden premises turn out to be true, it may be that one or more of the premises that were believed to be true turn out actually to be false, once more rendering the argument unsound.
The most important premises that have to be correct is number one: we have no free will whatsoever using the author's correct definition. Premise number two: The past does not cause the present but that doesn't mean that will is free. Premise number three: Moving in the direction of greater satisfaction is an immutable law which we have no control over. Premise number four: Nothing (not heredity, the past, our parents, or God himself) can cause someone to do what he MAKES UP HIS MIND not to do. This is something we have absolute control over. Premise number five that has to be true is that we are born with a conscience, although it has not reached the temperature necessary to end all evil (hurt). The sixth premise that has to be true is that we have to have a justification to hurt others. Knowing that we will be blamed or questioned allows us to shift our responsibility to someone or something else which gives us the advance justification to go ahead with the act even if it is at the expense of others. In the new world, we are already excused, therefore our responsibility cannot be shifted away from ourselves which leaves us with no way to justify what it is we are contemplating. It would be out of the question because our conscience would never allow it.

In order to hurt another, either deliberately or carelessly, man must be able to derive greater, not less, satisfaction, which means that self-preservation demands and justifies this, that he was previously hurt in some way and finds it preferable to strike back ‘an eye for an eye,’ which he can also justify, or else he knows absolutely and positively that he would be blamed by the person he hurt and others if they knew. Blame itself, which is a condition of free will and a part of the present environment, permits the consideration of hurt, for it is the price man is willing to pay for the satisfaction of certain desires, but when blame is removed so that the advance knowledge that it no longer exists becomes a new condition of the environment, then the price he must consider to strike the first blow of hurt is completely out of reach because he cannot find satisfaction in hurting those who will refuse to blame him or retaliate in any way. To hurt someone under these conditions, he would have to move in the direction of conscious dissatisfaction, which is mathematically impossible. From a superficial standpoint, it might still appear that man would take advantage of not being blamed and punished and risk hurting others as a solution to his problems, but this is a mathematical impossibility when he knows that blame and punishment are required for advance justification.

Fifth premise: If we can justify hurting others, then we are not striking a first blow which is what this discovery prevents. If the first blow is not struck, there will be no need to strike back or turn the other cheek. The problem is removing all of the hurt that exists in our environment so that there is no justification to strike back or retaliate, which then prevents the never-ending cycle of attack and counterattack that has cost millions of people their lives.
 
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Looking back, it was preset or predestined when it is realized that the choices made throughout history could not have been otherwise. But we can't say, before something is done, that it has to be a certain way before it even takes place. That's the confusion that this author was trying to correct regarding the definition. But just because nothing is set in stone before it's even done does not mean we have a free choice. In reality, we don't. Being able to contemplate doesn't give us a free choice either. It just gives us the ability to analyze different possibilities before making a choice, but the choice itself, once it's made, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE.

So you assert, without evidence or argument, unless you think ALL CAPS is an argument. DBT commits one modal fallacy, conflating contingency with necessity, and you commit another: violation of the principle of modal fixity. All necessarily true propositions are timelessly true, as are all contingently true propositions. Put another way, contingent propositions are necessarily contingently true, and necessary propositions are necessarily necessary. If yesterday I ordered Coke, it remains true today, and will always remain true, that I could have ordered a Pepsi instead.

You could have ordered a Pepsi instead if you had wanted to, but you didn't want to, so you could not have at that instant ordered Pepsi.
Basically, as I indicated upthread, the “could not have done otherwise” argument that hard determinists also use collapses to “did not do otherwise,” because there is only one time line, and “did not do otherwise” is simply compatibilism.
Contingency and necessity are not mutually exclusive. Our choices are contingent on previous events and circumstances, but I hope you understand by now that we are using a more accurate definition. I realize how hard it is for everyone who is familiar with this debate to try to see why both definitions (the present definition of determinism and the compatibilist definition of free will) can't be reconciled because of the way they are defined, not because they can't. How can we solve this problem without making corrections to the definitions being put forth?
 
It gets even worse than that, because while Newton’s “laws” fail at the very small (quantum) level and at the high-speed (relativistic) level, quantum theory and relativity theory disagree with each other. So either one or both of these theories is wrong at some level. And this is why you should avoid talking about “confirmation” as a scientific enterprise.
I'm sure there are conflicts where quantum theory and relativity theory disagree with each other, but this has nothing to do with proof on a human level. IOW, randomness may exist on the quantum level, but it doesn't give credence that man therefore has free will. Not everything in science is theoretical and cannot be substantiated. What it does show is that a person's worldviews run deep especially when they are being tested and will be defended vehemently. That is why a claim has to be rigorously and thoroughly studied or we may remain in limbo longer than necessary which is unfortunate, especially if the proof can save our planet from destruction and thousands (if not millions) of unnecessary deaths.
 
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You should also keep in mind that determinism itself fails at the quantum level, though here again this is only true under wave-function collapse interpretations, or meta-theories, of QM. On non-collapse meta-theories, determinism is restored. You see, science is ever so much more complicated than is generally understood, and it’s definitely wrapped up with philosophy.
The term "philosophy" gives the appearance that anything goes; that there are never any conclusions, just questions that cannot be answered. That is not completely true. No one knows where nuggets of truth can be found, even in philosophy.

Many theories as to how world peace could be achieved have been proposed, yet war has once again taken its deadly toll in the 21st century. The dream of peace has remained an unattainable goal—until now. The following pages reveal a scientific discovery regarding a psychological law of man’s nature never before understood. This finding was hidden so successfully behind layers and layers of dogma and misunderstanding that no one knew a deeper truth existed. Once this natural law becomes a permanent condition of the environment, it will allow mankind, for the very first time, to veer in a different direction—preventing the never-ending cycle of hurt and retaliation in human relations. Although this discovery was borne out of philosophical thought, it is factual, not theoretical, in nature.
 
I did thank him because I agreed with what he was saying.

Then, like him, you are a hard determinist.
Looking back, our choices were predetermined. It could not have been otherwise when it is realized that the choices made throughout history were part of the continued causal chain of life…

Hard determinism
… but again, I'm using the term "cause" lightly. If you understand what I have been saying, we are not caused by antecedent events. We are remembering past events and using them to decide which options are more preferable in the present.

Sure.
We can't say, before something is done, that due to deterministic forces, we are caused to make a certain choice even if we are not consenting to it.

Compatibilism. Round and round we go.
This is the confusion that the author was trying to clear up regarding the definition. Bear in mind, once again, that just because nothing is set in stone before it's even done does not mean we have free will.

Assertion.
We do not.

Assertion.
Being able to contemplate between alternatives doesn't give us a free choice either. It just gives us the ability to analyze possible outcomes, but the choice itself, once made, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE.

Modal fallacy and ARGUMENTUM ALL CAPS fallacy.
Only one choice is possible each and every moment, which feels unintuitive to most people who say, "What do you mean I don't have a free choice", but in actuality we don't, which is the very reason will is not free.

Yes, only one thing will be chosen among a range of options at any given moment, provided the choices are mutually exclusive. No one disputes that.
Your author’s argument, by contrast, certainly has elements that are consistent with compatibilism — such as, for example, that no one can makes us do, what we don’t want to do — unless, presumably, one holds a gun to our heads.
I never said that. Even if we had a gun to our head, we still have a choice …

I thought we didn’t have any choice in what we do?



although a difficult one. When a person says, "You gave me no choice", he doesn't mean he really didn't have a choice; it's just that the choice was so obviously extreme that it felt as if he had no choice. Depending on the circumstance, a person may do what the perpetrator with a gun to his head wants, or he may not. For example, no one could make the person with a gun to his head give up information, if by doing so his family would be killed instantly.

As Elixir noted, maybe they don’t like their family. ;)
That is a compatibilist position. But, fine, you don’t have to call your argument compatibilist. There are other arguments on offer, such as libertarianism and neo-Humean compatibilism. Call your argument something else, because after all the author himself argues that it is completely novel.
His discovery is novel, but determinism is not. It is only tweaked to be more accurate. We are not being caused, by an external force, to do what we do which implies a choice is set even if it's against our will. It seems like you are defending compatibilism even after I explained why a semantic shift in the phrase "free will" doesn't cut it.

But you didn’t “explain” anything, you just asserted it.
It isn't even logical to say we have both free will and determinism; we cannot do otherwise and not do otherwise, which is the issue that is under debate. We can't be alive and dead at the same time either.

The opposite of determinism isn’t free will. It’s indeterminism. And, since the quantum world is indeterminist under wave-function collapse interpretations, and everything in the world is made of quantum particles and has particle-wave duality, including us, it seems probable that the world is actually indeterministic and probabilities of outcomes must be calculated according to the Born rule.

Anyway, enough for now, as I mentioned this is a message board, and people have only so much time to respond to giant walls of text. I have football games to attend to in my bets with my friend on the other side of the continent. Not having a good week so far. :confused:
 
Looking back, it was preset or predestined when it is realized that the choices made throughout history could not have been otherwise. But we can't say, before something is done, that it has to be a certain way before it even takes place. That's the confusion that this author was trying to correct regarding the definition. But just because nothing is set in stone before it's even done does not mean we have a free choice. In reality, we don't. Being able to contemplate doesn't give us a free choice either. It just gives us the ability to analyze different possibilities before making a choice, but the choice itself, once it's made, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE.

So you assert, without evidence or argument, unless you think ALL CAPS is an argument. DBT commits one modal fallacy, conflating contingency with necessity, and you commit another: violation of the principle of modal fixity. All necessarily true propositions are timelessly true, as are all contingently true propositions. Put another way, contingent propositions are necessarily contingently true, and necessary propositions are necessarily necessary. If yesterday I ordered Coke, it remains true today, and will always remain true, that I could have ordered a Pepsi instead.

You could have ordered a Pepsi instead if you had wanted to, but you didn't want to, so you could not have at that instant ordered Pepsi.

Correction. I did not order Pepsi because I did not want to do so. That’s true. What’s not true is that I COULD not have ordered Pepsi. It’s self evidently absurd. It was obviously in my power to do so; the Pepsi was right there in the freezer, all I had to do was open it, take the Pepsi out, and pay at the counter.

Now, as it happens, I don’t like Pepsi, and I do like Coke, though I almost never drink any soft drink. But if in the future I happen to want a soft drink, it will be Coke over Pepsi every time.
 
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