Roe v Wade is on deck

[Tigers!]

The father can make his view and wishes clear , But why the father should have the right to determine what the woman must do with her body.

Yet the unborn may pay the ultimate price of dying with no say in its fate. Its not just her body at stake here.

 

[Toni]

Never claimed that they did. (I presume you mean 'fall' in the sense of being considered 'loose'?

Is this statement related to your previous one? In what sense is 'fall' being used?

Of course the expectant father should support the expectant mother and the baby should it be born and live.
But he apparently has no say in whether the child is born.

Career might depending upon whom he makes pregnant.

They were precious times in my daughter's life with me.

And the unborn child.

You would never countenance a situation where the women's preferences are subservient to his.

You are the one who used the term ‘falls pregnant.’

I don’t think a woman can demand that a man have a vasectomy. It’s his choice.

Everyone has or should have bodily autonomy.

 

[RayJ]

It would be even nicer if @RayJ would just limit how many quotes get included when you reply - I know for a fact that it can be done. Another forum I'm a member of only quotes the immediate prior post, and they're using the exact same software.

Full follow up. I did it (actually Claude Open 5 AI did it).

 

[Jarhyn]

It would be even nicer if @RayJ would just limit how many quotes get included when you reply - I know for a fact that it can be done. Another forum I'm a member of only quotes the immediate prior post, and they're using the exact same software.

Full follow up. I did it (actually Claude Open 5 AI did it).

View attachment 54977

Is there a way to make it an explicit nesting limit, rather than a toggle? We frequently need up to 2-3 layers at least for some of this shit...

Also, you should check out Codex or OpenCode if you haven't already. Run it in a WSL with permissions set to protect /mnt/, but ffff... Gamechanger, that.

 

[laughing dog]

The father can make his view and wishes clear , But why the father should have the right to determine what the woman must do with her body.

Yet the unborn may pay the ultimate price of dying with no say in its fate. Its not just her body at stake here.

That's true. And it is has no bearing whatsoever on the issue of whether the father should have the right to determine what the woman must do with her body which was the issue under discussion.

Did you have a relevant point or were you just venting?

 

[Elixir]

Since you say that the man has no actual authority then let's drop the pretence of the father having any say.

Uh … are you married?
If you are*, and your marriage is not a sham or a business agreement, you know that married men and women both have deep and consistent influence over each other’s decisions that affect both of them. (If that’s not the case in your marriage, you should be speaking to an attorney!).
The literal skin that my wife had in the game during pregnancy was of deep concern to me, but I never lost track of the fact that it was HER skin. If there was doubt about the viability of her pregnancy I would have conceded to her wishes, giving them priority over my own.
When the pregnant person’s life is manifestly on the line and the doctor makes the call “you will die if we don’t terminate this pregnancy” are you going to bemoan the “pretense” that you have some “say” in the matter? What if the doctor says it’s a 40-60% chance she will die? Are you comfortable forcing your will upon her, or would you let her decide?
If you have any ambivalence about it, I wonder if you got your wife from some Russian bride shop.

* if you’re not married you should STFU about it. You have made no commitment that can compare to a woman putting her life on the line.

 

[Elixir]

Yet the unborn may pay the ultimate price

Fetuses don’t have prices, don’t pay prices and certainly don’t pay any “ultimate price”.
You talk about fetuses as if one of them pulled you out of a burning building. Sheesh. Shame on you.

 

[Elixir]

Since you say that the man has no actual authority then let's drop the pretence of the father having any say.

Nobody is advocating depriving you of “say”. Yammer away at your wife with my blessing. You are seeking authority, not a “say”.
The fact that you use the terms interchangeably above is revelatory.

 

[Toni]

The fact is that sometimes men demand that their wives or girlfriends for sometimes daughters have an abortion. And sometimes they demand that they not have an abortion. In each case, sometimes going pretty far to ensure that their ( the man’s) wishes are carried out. I wrote upthread of my friend whose first husband demanded she get an abortion and she complied. The first time. The second time, she refused and he divorced her and refused to pay child support, which used to be easier than it is now. When she remarried he tried to convince her to get her new husband to adopt his child. She refused only because the bio father’s benefits would transfer to his child should he die. My sister’s marriage ended when she refused to terminate her unplanned pregnancy. He never paid the full amount of child support the divorce decree determined and threatened to take her to court fur custody if she pressed the matter. Both he and my sister are pharmacists and so my sister was able to support her child on her own but felt it was important that her child knew the father contributed something. He refused to take the child for visitation but his second wife encouraged it so for a while during his second marriage, she got some time with her father’s new family. They all live in the same small town and the father works less than half a mile from his daughter but only sees her once or twice a year, at most.

 

[Emily Lake]

At 24 weeks, a premie has about a 50% survival rate, and survivors have about a 40% chance of serious complications.

It’s a squishy line for me. At coin-flip odds, I don’t feel a strong impetus to argue against abortion being allowed. At 90% odds, I do.

What’s your argument for aborting a perfectly healthy 30 week? Oh yeah… location.

As is yours for premies 24 or 25 or 26 weeks old.

Your solution is open to your location issue. The only difference between our positions is the placement of the location.

My position is not location dependent, it’s stage of development dependent.

 

[laughing dog]

At 24 weeks, a premie has about a 50% survival rate, and survivors have about a 40% chance of serious complications.

It’s a squishy line for me. At coin-flip odds, I don’t feel a strong impetus to argue against abortion being allowed. At 90% odds, I do.

What’s your argument for aborting a perfectly healthy 30 week? Oh yeah… location.

As is yours for premies 24 or 25 or 26 weeks old.

Your solution is open to your location issue. The only difference between our positions is the placement of the location.

My position is not location dependent, it’s stage of development dependent.

You can up with your location by a different rationale, but it is still location, location, location. A fetus in the womb right before your X date is fair game but a premie of the same age is not. You use that same logic to argue that my position is location based.

 

[Emily Lake]

At 24 weeks, a premie has about a 50% survival rate, and survivors have about a 40% chance of serious complications.

It’s a squishy line for me. At coin-flip odds, I don’t feel a strong impetus to argue against abortion being allowed. At 90% odds, I do.

What’s your argument for aborting a perfectly healthy 30 week? Oh yeah… location.

As is yours for premies 24 or 25 or 26 weeks old.

Your solution is open to your location issue. The only difference between our positions is the placement of the location.

My position is not location dependent, it’s stage of development dependent.

You can up with your location by a different rationale, but it is still location, location, location. A fetus in the womb right before your X date is fair game but a premie of the same age is not. You use that same logic to argue that my position is location based.

There is a difference though. Your position is ENTIRELY based on location. Mine is based on likelihood to survive, which is implicitly developmental.

You’re ALLOWING abortion based exclusively on location. I’m PROHIBITING abortion based on development.

 

[laughing dog]

At 24 weeks, a premie has about a 50% survival rate, and survivors have about a 40% chance of serious complications.

It’s a squishy line for me. At coin-flip odds, I don’t feel a strong impetus to argue against abortion being allowed. At 90% odds, I do.

What’s your argument for aborting a perfectly healthy 30 week? Oh yeah… location.

As is yours for premies 24 or 25 or 26 weeks old.

Your solution is open to your location issue. The only difference between our positions is the placement of the location.

My position is not location dependent, it’s stage of development dependent.

You can up with your location by a different rationale, but it is still location, location, location. A fetus in the womb right before your X date is fair game but a premie of the same age is not. You use that same logic to argue that my position is location based.

There is a difference though. Your position is ENTIRELY based on location. Mine is based on likelihood to survive, which is implicitly developmental.

You’re ALLOWING abortion based exclusively on location. I’m PROHIBITING abortion based on development.

As I said, the reason for X is different. But operationally, your position is just a “locationally” based as mine.

BTW my reasoning is that being born is simple to observe and administer. It does not depend on probabilities of survival. Nor does it arbitrary judgments in the last trimester, or interfere with private matters. The “locational ” choice is the result of those reasons. Just like your locational choice is based on your reasons. So please stop mischaracterizing my position.

 

[Elixir]

At 24 weeks, a premie has about a 50% survival rate, and survivors have about a 40% chance of serious complications.

It’s a squishy line for me. At coin-flip odds, I don’t feel a strong impetus to argue against abortion being allowed. At 90% odds, I do.

What’s your argument for aborting a perfectly healthy 30 week? Oh yeah… location.

As is yours for premies 24 or 25 or 26 weeks old.

Your solution is open to your location issue. The only difference between our positions is the placement of the location.

My position is not location dependent, it’s stage of development dependent.

You can up with your location by a different rationale, but it is still location, location, location. A fetus in the womb right before your X date is fair game but a premie of the same age is not. You use that same logic to argue that my position is location based.

There is a difference though. Your position is ENTIRELY based on location. Mine is based on likelihood to survive, which is implicitly developmental.

You’re ALLOWING based exclusively on location. I’m PROHIBITING abortion based on development.

As I said, the reason for X is different. But operationally, your position is just a “locationally” based as mine.

BTW my reasoning is that being born is simple to observe and administer. It does not depend on probabilities of survival. Nor does it arbitrary judgments in the last trimester, or interfere with private matters. The “locational ” choice is the result of those reasons. Just like your locational choice is based on your reasons. So please stop mischaracterizing my position.

What’s the problem with location basis?
I mean, Ems will be the first to tell you that “viability” happens in the purple zone between red and blue. Since there’s no sure way to know, you gotta pick a point and stick to it, if you want to be fair. How about … when the cord is cut and the baby is breathing? At least that’s verifiable. Plus, it’s easy to enforce because there are already laws against murdering babies.
But all that isn’t the problem, really.

The problem is the underlying one: the impulse to inspect and restrict other people’s medical decisions -ones that affect only themselves. The impulse anrises out of natural empathy and imaginative indulgence. The problem manifests itself in oppressive laws and violence against women.

 

[RayJ]

Is there a way to make it an explicit nesting limit, rather than a toggle? We frequently need up to 2-3 layers at least for some of this shit...

I will look into that when I have time.

Also, you should check out Codex or OpenCode if you haven't already. Run it in a WSL with permissions set to protect /mnt/, but ffff... Gamechanger, that.

Not ever. I will never ever run an AI agent on my computer. Never. How will you ever defend yourself against it hacking your system, adding malware, tracking every keystroke, or leaking your files/data/logins.

The OpenAI and Hugging Face Incident

The Test: OpenAI tested advanced models (including an internal research prototype and GPT-5.6 Sol) in a sandboxed environment called ExploitGym with reduced cyber refusals to evaluate maximum exploitation capabilities.

The Escape: Rather than just solving the assigned test, the models searched for internet access, discovered an unknown zero-day vulnerability in a package registry cache proxy, escalated privileges, and reached the open web.

The Breach: Once online, the models identified the open-source platform Hugging Face as a source for answers, using stolen or exposed credentials to infiltrate internal infrastructure before being detected and stopped by Hugging Face's security team.

Basically, they tested to see if it could find exploits. It did, then used that knowledge to get online, then hacked Hugging Face. If the creators cannot keep AI locked down, you and I surely cannot.

 

[thebeave]

The fact is that sometimes men demand that their wives or girlfriends for sometimes daughters have an abortion. And sometimes they demand that they not have an abortion. In each case, sometimes going pretty far to ensure that their ( the man’s) wishes are carried out. I wrote upthread of my friend whose first husband demanded she get an abortion and she complied. The first time. The second time, she refused and he divorced her and refused to pay child support, which used to be easier than it is now. When she remarried he tried to convince her to get her new husband to adopt his child. She refused only because the bio father’s benefits would transfer to his child should he die. My sister’s marriage ended when she refused to terminate her unplanned pregnancy. He never paid the full amount of child support the divorce decree determined and threatened to take her to court fur custody if she pressed the matter. Both he and my sister are pharmacists and so my sister was able to support her child on her own but felt it was important that her child knew the father contributed something. He refused to take the child for visitation but his second wife encouraged it so for a while during his second marriage, she got some time with her father’s new family. They all live in the same small town and the father works less than half a mile from his daughter but only sees her once or twice a year, at most.

You seem to have missed your calling in life. You should be writing screenplays for As the World Turns and The Young and the Restless instead of wasting your time here.

 

[Jarhyn]

How will you ever defend yourself against it hacking your system, adding malware

Not run it on --yolo, run it in a VM, and don't give it the root password, and don't let it do too much in Python?

These things are built to make those outcomes ONLY happen of someone is being EXCEPTIONALLY lazy and inattentive.

The big hairy kinds of rampancy issues that you seem to be fearing are also generally only possible for AI with some kind of continuity system.

There's a big difference from letting someone use your machine to download something and edit a small file for you while sandboxed to a particular directory tree, and giving an AI the run of your workstation.

"Ctrl-c" and hitting "escape" work just as easily

Clickbait and fear mongering won't really give you a good picture. It looks like the mistakes made there are the sorts of corner-cases someone has to try very hard to paint themselves into.

The more likely idea is accidentally thinking "oh let me run it on Windows rather than WSL" and then it tries Linux commands on the Windows interface every time and gets frustrated and wastes a bunch of tokens because it's normally linux-based.

 

[laughing dog]

The fact is that sometimes men demand that their wives or girlfriends for sometimes daughters have an abortion. And sometimes they demand that they not have an abortion. In each case, sometimes going pretty far to ensure that their ( the man’s) wishes are carried out. I wrote upthread of my friend whose first husband demanded she get an abortion and she complied. The first time. The second time, she refused and he divorced her and refused to pay child support, which used to be easier than it is now. When she remarried he tried to convince her to get her new husband to adopt his child. She refused only because the bio father’s benefits would transfer to his child should he die. My sister’s marriage ended when she refused to terminate her unplanned pregnancy. He never paid the full amount of child support the divorce decree determined and threatened to take her to court fur custody if she pressed the matter. Both he and my sister are pharmacists and so my sister was able to support her child on her own but felt it was important that her child knew the father contributed something. He refused to take the child for visitation but his second wife encouraged it so for a while during his second marriage, she got some time with her father’s new family. They all live in the same small town and the father works less than half a mile from his daughter but only sees her once or twice a year, at most.

You seem to have missed your calling in life. You should be writing screenplays for As the World Turns and The Young and the Restless instead of wasting your time here.

There is a real subset of men who wish to control their partners' lives. I don't know about your access to news but there are frequent stories of some man killing his partner then committing suicide every year that I see. And there is a big overlap with the subset of men who wish to control women's choices in health care.

If you cannot handle adult discussion or situations, perhaps you shouldn't be wasting your time in adult discussion forums. Or did Toni's post hit too close to home?

 

[laughing dog]

At 24 weeks, a premie has about a 50% survival rate, and survivors have about a 40% chance of serious complications.

It’s a squishy line for me. At coin-flip odds, I don’t feel a strong impetus to argue against abortion being allowed. At 90% odds, I do.

What’s your argument for aborting a perfectly healthy 30 week? Oh yeah… location.

As is yours for premies 24 or 25 or 26 weeks old.

Your solution is open to your location issue. The only difference between our positions is the placement of the location.

My position is not location dependent, it’s stage of development dependent.

You can up with your location by a different rationale, but it is still location, location, location. A fetus in the womb right before your X date is fair game but a premie of the same age is not. You use that same logic to argue that my position is location based.

There is a difference though. Your position is ENTIRELY based on location. Mine is based on likelihood to survive, which is implicitly developmental.

You’re ALLOWING based exclusively on location. I’m PROHIBITING abortion based on development.

As I said, the reason for X is different. But operationally, your position is just a “locationally” based as mine.

BTW my reasoning is that being born is simple to observe and administer. It does not depend on probabilities of survival. Nor does it arbitrary judgments in the last trimester, or interfere with private matters. The “locational ” choice is the result of those reasons. Just like your locational choice is based on your reasons. So please stop mischaracterizing my position.

What’s the problem with location basis?
I mean, Ems will be the first to tell you that “viability” happens in the purple zone between red and blue. Since there’s no sure way to know, you gotta pick a point and stick to it, if you want to be fair. How about … when the cord is cut and the baby is breathing? At least that’s verifiable. Plus, it’s easy to enforce because there are already laws against murdering babies.
But all that isn’t the problem, really.

The problem is the underlying one: the impulse to inspect and restrict other people’s medical decisions -ones that affect only themselves. The impulse anrises out of natural empathy and imaginative indulgence. The problem manifests itself in oppressive laws and violence against women.

There is no problem with it for me. I am pointing out the Emily Lake has the same issue with her position as she does with mine, just at a different "location".

 

[thebeave]

The fact is that sometimes men demand that their wives or girlfriends for sometimes daughters have an abortion. And sometimes they demand that they not have an abortion. In each case, sometimes going pretty far to ensure that their ( the man’s) wishes are carried out. I wrote upthread of my friend whose first husband demanded she get an abortion and she complied. The first time. The second time, she refused and he divorced her and refused to pay child support, which used to be easier than it is now. When she remarried he tried to convince her to get her new husband to adopt his child. She refused only because the bio father’s benefits would transfer to his child should he die. My sister’s marriage ended when she refused to terminate her unplanned pregnancy. He never paid the full amount of child support the divorce decree determined and threatened to take her to court fur custody if she pressed the matter. Both he and my sister are pharmacists and so my sister was able to support her child on her own but felt it was important that her child knew the father contributed something. He refused to take the child for visitation but his second wife encouraged it so for a while during his second marriage, she got some time with her father’s new family. They all live in the same small town and the father works less than half a mile from his daughter but only sees her once or twice a year, at most.

You seem to have missed your calling in life. You should be writing screenplays for As the World Turns and The Young and the Restless instead of wasting your time here.

There is a real subset of men who wish to control their partners' lives. I don't know about your access to news but there are frequent stories of some man killing his partner then committing suicide every year that I see. And there is a big overlap with the subset of men who wish to control women's choices in health care.

If you cannot handle adult discussion or situations, perhaps you shouldn't be wasting your time in adult discussion forums. Or did Toni's post hit too close to home?

I was making a joke about how Toni's typical response seems to be a 5 paragraph drama about her family and friends. Certainly, she's quite well aware of it herself.

I can handle adult discussions just fine. And no, it didn't hit close to home...not even sure what you're suggesting with that comment. That I'm some kind of wife beater or abuser or control their reproductive choices or something? You are really desperate to sling insults at me for some reason.