Split Rs vs Ds And The Middle Class - split from RFK -D ???

[RVonse]

If he did what you accuse him then I agree.

It's not me that's doing the accusing. See, this is where our constitutional system of government comes into play. I would suggest you read the indictments. Trump's own defense attorney said - on live television no less - that the plan was to throw out the slate of electors that the states had sent to Washington and (for lack of a better term) have a "do over" where Trump won.

They even posted their fraudulent documents online for all to see.

If all this is cut and dry, then Trump is in real trouble now. Which is probably why Desantis has not thrown in his towel yet.

 

[RVonse]

This is what the Republicans try to protect and what the Democrats don't want.

I'm positive that the folks who attacked EC to overturn the Constitutional election results were and mostly still are Trump supporting Republicans.
Are you claiming differently?
Tom

I was referring to the general philosophy of the political parties Dem vs Rep and not at the individual level.

 

[RVonse]

But where does the middle class go when the leadership of the Democrat party calls them deplorable and spews hate towards them.

1. It appears that you do not know that a significant part of the middle class is democrats. What is it that made you think that?
2. It appears that when Hillary Clinton said that half of the republican party was acting badly (and yes she said half, she never said all) that you thought she was talking about you. Why do you identify with the part of the Republican party that is okay with grabbing women and mocking the disabled and wearing “fuck your feelings” tee shirts? My husband is a republican and he definitely did not think she was talking about him - why do you?
3. It appears that you have no issue with Romney’s “47%” remark nor Trump’s, “I love the uneducated” remark. Why do you not lament that the Republican party is mocking the middle class?
4. It appears that you like using the childish and juvenile mocking term “Democrat” Party when you know as well as I do that it is “Democratic Party.” Why do you like being seen as someone who bis a namecaller - just like Hillary?

Hillary was never talking about ”the middle class” and the rest of the middle class knows that.

She was talking about the uneducated middle class (the people who do the real labor in this country) and everyone including her knew it. Her only miscalculation was that those voters were still numerous enough (back then) to defeat her narrowly.

 

[ZiprHead]

But where does the middle class go when the leadership of the Democrat party calls them deplorable and spews hate towards them.

1. It appears that you do not know that a significant part of the middle class is democrats. What is it that made you think that?
2. It appears that when Hillary Clinton said that half of the republican party was acting badly (and yes she said half, she never said all) that you thought she was talking about you. Why do you identify with the part of the Republican party that is okay with grabbing women and mocking the disabled and wearing “fuck your feelings” tee shirts? My husband is a republican and he definitely did not think she was talking about him - why do you?
3. It appears that you have no issue with Romney’s “47%” remark nor Trump’s, “I love the uneducated” remark. Why do you not lament that the Republican party is mocking the middle class?
4. It appears that you like using the childish and juvenile mocking term “Democrat” Party when you know as well as I do that it is “Democratic Party.” Why do you like being seen as someone who bis a namecaller - just like Hillary?

Hillary was never talking about ”the middle class” and the rest of the middle class knows that.

She was talking about the uneducated middle class (the people who do the real labor in this country) and everyone including her knew it. Her only miscalculation was that those voters were still numerous enough (back then) to defeat her narrowly.

Bullshit. Here is exactly what she said:

“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.”

 

[Ford]

This is what the Republicans try to protect and what the Democrats don't want.

I'm positive that the folks who attacked EC to overturn the Constitutional election results were and mostly still are Trump supporting Republicans.
Are you claiming differently?
Tom

I was referring to the general philosophy of the political parties Dem vs Rep and not at the individual level.

Ah yes. We're back on that again.

Because as we all know, the Republicans are the party of the working class, labor, and the individual against the corporate interests, while the Democrats are not. Hash tag sarcasm.

 

[RVonse]

This is what the Republicans try to protect and what the Democrats don't want.

I'm positive that the folks who attacked EC to overturn the Constitutional election results were and mostly still are Trump supporting Republicans.
Are you claiming differently?
Tom

I was referring to the general philosophy of the political parties Dem vs Rep and not at the individual level.

Ah yes. We're back on that again.

Because as we all know, the Republicans are the party of the working class, labor, and the individual against the corporate interests, while the Democrats are not. Hash tag sarcasm.

The parties are changing quite substantially as to what we believe they are known for. As one example, 20 years ago the Democrats were completely against illegal immigration.

 

[ZiprHead]

This is what the Republicans try to protect and what the Democrats don't want.

I'm positive that the folks who attacked EC to overturn the Constitutional election results were and mostly still are Trump supporting Republicans.
Are you claiming differently?
Tom

I was referring to the general philosophy of the political parties Dem vs Rep and not at the individual level.

Ah yes. We're back on that again.

Because as we all know, the Republicans are the party of the working class, labor, and the individual against the corporate interests, while the Democrats are not. Hash tag sarcasm.

The parties are changing quite substantially as to what we believe they are known for. As one example, 20 years ago the Democrats were completely against illegal immigration.

And they still are.

All foreigners, however, have the legal right to request asylum.

Biden administration ramps up deportations

According to the Department of Homeland Security, about 85,000 migrants have been “repatriated” since Title 42 was lifted. That’s up 65% since the same period last year.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Ford]

This is what the Republicans try to protect and what the Democrats don't want.

I'm positive that the folks who attacked EC to overturn the Constitutional election results were and mostly still are Trump supporting Republicans.
Are you claiming differently?
Tom

I was referring to the general philosophy of the political parties Dem vs Rep and not at the individual level.

Ah yes. We're back on that again.

Because as we all know, the Republicans are the party of the working class, labor, and the individual against the corporate interests, while the Democrats are not. Hash tag sarcasm.

The parties are changing quite substantially as to what we believe they are known for. As one example, 20 years ago the Democrats were completely against illegal immigration.

Oh look. Trying to change the subject again!

At the end of the day, though, the Republican Party has - again - never been the party of the working class. For the last 90 years, the GOP has fought mightily against the working class. It was just over 90 years ago that FDR became President. With the possible exception of Eisenhower, every single Republican administration since has been dead set against the working class. For almost the last 50 years, the GOP has been all about tax cuts for the wealthy, and breaking the back of unions and the workers.

Once again. Don't give me this "the GOP is the party of the working man" shit.

 

[Ford]

Oh look. Trying to change the subject again!

Because unlike what the Democrats are morphing into, RFK appears very interested in the middle class.

So it took me all of 20 seconds to look up the net worth of this advocate of the middle class.

60 million. Wow. He's just like us.

 

[TomC]

20 years ago the Democrats were completely against illegal immigration.

I don't really consider myself a Democrat, but I've always been opposed to illegal immigration.
The difference between my attitude and that of the Republican folks I know about is the best solution.
I think it's giving documents to people we're willing to hire. If U.S. society is willing to give two million jobs to Mexican workers we need to give out two million work permits. Then start prosecuting the American people who hire undocumented workers.

That's very different from Trump and his Wall. That's the Republican solution, as far as I can tell.
Tom

 

[Patooka]

She was talking about the uneducated middle class (the people who do the real labor in this country)

This is without a doubt the most wrong thing you have ever said. Your takes on the American middle class have always been a deluded fantasy, but this is next level stupidity. The fuckwits who never got tertiary education and get all their "news" from youtube and FOX contribute maybe 2% of America's industrial output. And they are not as numerous or as typical as you insist.

 

[Ford]

20 years ago the Democrats were completely against illegal immigration.

I don't really consider myself a Democrat, but I've always been opposed to illegal immigration.
The difference between my attitude and that of the Republican folks I know about is the best solution.
I think it's giving documents to people we're willing to hire. If U.S. society is willing to give two million jobs to Mexican workers we need to give out two million work permits. Then start prosecuting the American people who hire undocumented workers.

That's very different from Trump and his Wall. That's the Republican solution, as far as I can tell.
Tom

I realize we're drifting far afield from the RFK Jr thing, but I also never considered myself a Democrat. I was a registered Republican until about 30 years ago, then went independent.

Regarding illegal immigrants? I live in a border state, and we had an infamous "papers please" law in place for a bit awhile back. Contained within the law was a provision to sanction employers who hired illegal immigrants.

Then an odd thing (sarcasm) happened. Migrant workers were rounded up with zeal. We had a famous sheriff who conducted raids on businesses and staged photo ops with "illegal" workers in zip-ties on the curb outside of a business.

You know who this "tough on illegal immigration" guy never arrested? The owners/managers of the businesses that hired the immigrants. Landscapers and construction workers wound up getting deported, but not a single business owner was ever fined or arrested.

 

[TomC]

You know who this "tough on illegal immigration" guy never arrested? The owners/managers of the businesses that hired the immigrants.

We are getting far afield from the OP.

Fact is, I don't pay much attention to long shot candidates at this stage of the game. Kennedy is rich, connected, and an antivaxxer. So far, he sounds like Trump.

@RVonse claimed he was pro middle class. I doubt it very much.
However, an elevator pitch(five sentences or so) followed by some citations might give me reasons to believe that Kennedy is more than a Trump style grifter.

I'm not holding my breath, but it could happen.
Tom

 

[scombrid]

The McConnell-Ryan super rich corporation tax give away sure was good for the middle class as was the GOP Health Care Act.

 

[scombrid]

Funny too how the same people that vilify the Democrats as being against the working stiff and the middle class are also the first to toss flaming pitchforks at Elizabeth Warren, AOC, and anyone else that dare suggest that a tax structure that hammers the middle tiers of society for the benefit of the 1%.

 

[bilby]

There was a time and not that long ago that the Democrat party was more focused on the needs of individuals and working class than powerful pharmaceutical monopolies.

Refusing to be vaccinated, like refusing to pay taxes,

Even now you don't know this. Because even now, after the pandemic is over with we actually do not have any valid data with regards showing how un-vaccinated populations did against the vaccinated ones. I'm guessing the Amish (who were not vaccinated) had far fewer deaths than anyone else. I'm guessing young age and fitness had a lot more to do with survival than a vaccine. But we will never know either way for sure since this is a political hot topic.

There's plenty of data.

You just refuse to accept that places outside the USA can contribute meaningfully to it.

But they do, and there's absolutely nothing any US government or US political shitfights can do to stop the other 95% of the world from doing simple research and publishing the unequivocal results.

Outside the USA, with its batshit far right MAGA party, locked in a batshit far right media driven struggle against a right wing party that hasn't quite fallen into total insanity but which suffers from having zero credible opposition, this is NOT a political hot topic.

Out here in the rest of the world, antivax idiocy is a completely marginal and widely ignored phenomenon, and it's lunatic supporters have zero influence over what research is done, or what research is published.

That vaccination is very effective, and that Covid-19 is very dangerous, but disproportionately so in unvaccinated people, is not something that can sanely be questioned; But sanity isn't a criterion used in the USA to decide what questions are asked or of whom, so it's easy for someone who gets all their "news" from US sources, particularly the farther right sources such as Fox News (and everything to the right of them) to genuinely believe that there's a controversy here.

There's no controversy, except amongst the faeces flinging chimps that pass themselves off as news media to the large minority of Americans who think Donald Trump might not be the worst president in US history.

So, while you might not know this, that's a symptom of your having had your mental faculties repeatedly abused by a media machine that exists for no other purpose than the enrichment of a handful of old men by so doing; And as I am fortunate enough to live outside that bubble of total madness, I am, absolutely, able to know it. And I do.

Refusing to get vaccinated makes as much reasonable and logical sense as expecting the rapture, or believing in witchcraft, or thinking Donald Trump isn't a criminal.

 

[bilby]

But how is Trump going to jail relevant to an individual's personal freedom and/or liberty?

Same way any dictator going to jail, instead of being installed as supreme ruler for life, would be.

Would you suggest that if the North Korean people were to put Kim Jong Un in jail for his abuses of power, that this would be irrelevant to the personal freedom and/or liberty of North Koreans?

 

[Toni]

There was a time and not that long ago that the Democrat party was more focused on the needs of individuals and working class than powerful pharmaceutical monopolies. Especially poor individuals who had no way to discern what large corporations were really up to.

Your side of the political fence doesn't give a company fuck about the needs of the working class. They never have.

Yes, I agree. But where does the middle class go when the leadership of the Democrat party calls them deplorable and spews hate towards them. At least the Republicans are willing to let them sit at their table.....they aren't feeding them yet but they aren't calling them names and belittling them either.

Hillary Clinton is a lot of things but she was not dumb with polling. She knew the middle class is no longer a majority (since 2015) so they can all go and eat shit for what she cared about. https://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/10/middle-class-americans-no-longer-majority.html

Today the Democrats represent the ultra rich, the ultra poor, and the non US citizens of Latin America. The Republicans represent the ultra rich and the other people (rich or poor) who still want personal freedom. Its not the perfect fit for what used to be the middle class...but its the only place they can go.

Well, your claim about the portion of the US adult population who belong to the middle class is simply incorrect. They held a slight majority as late as 2020 and are now 50% of the population. They ‘ lost’ about equally to the upper and the lower class, with a slightly larger number moving to the upper class.

The American middle class is stable in size, but losing ground financially to upper-income families

Middle-income Americans' financial gains between 2011 and 2016 were modest compared with upper-income Americans' gains, widening the income disparity between the groups.

www.pewresearch.org

How the American middle class has changed in the past five decades

The share of adults who live in middle-class households fell from 61% in 1971 to 50% in 2021, according to a new analysis.

www.pewresearch.org

You are probably too young to realize this but most of the lower class enjoys a much better standard of living than they did 50 years ago, who in turn, enjoyed a much better standard of living than they did during the Great Depression and previously. This is due to both the investment in the social safety net and also technological advances.

 

[Toni]

There was a time and not that long ago that the Democrat party was more focused on the needs of individuals and working class than powerful pharmaceutical monopolies.

Refusing to be vaccinated, like refusing to pay taxes,

Even now you don't know this. Because even now, after the pandemic is over with we actually do not have any valid data with regards showing how un-vaccinated populations did against the vaccinated ones. I'm guessing the Amish (who were not vaccinated) had far fewer deaths than anyone else. I'm guessing young age and fitness had a lot more to do with survival than a vaccine. But we will never know either way for sure since this is a political hot topic.

There's plenty of data.

You just refuse to accept that places outside the USA can contribute meaningfully to it.

But they do, and there's absolutely nothing any US government or US political shitfights can do to stop the other 95% of the world from doing simple research and publishing the unequivocal results.

Outside the USA, with its batshit far right MAGA party, locked in a batshit far right media driven struggle against a right wing party that hasn't quite fallen into total insanity but which suffers from having zero credible opposition, this is NOT a political hot topic.

Out here in the rest of the world, antivax idiocy is a completely marginal and widely ignored phenomenon, and it's lunatic supporters have zero influence over what research is done, or what research is published.

That vaccination is very effective, and that Covid-19 is very dangerous, but disproportionately so in unvaccinated people, is not something that can sanely be questioned; But sanity isn't a criterion used in the USA to decide what questions are asked or of whom, so it's easy for someone who gets all their "news" from US sources, particularly the farther right sources such as Fox News (and everything to the right of them) to genuinely believe that there's a controversy here.

There's no controversy, except amongst the faeces flinging chimps that pass themselves off as news media to the large minority of Americans who think Donald Trump might not be the worst president in US history.

So, while you might not know this, that's a symptom of your having had your mental faculties repeatedly abused by a media machine that exists for no other purpose than the enrichment of a handful of old men by so doing; And as I am fortunate enough to live outside that bubble of total madness, I am, absolutely, able to know it. And I do.

Refusing to get vaccinated makes as much reasonable and logical sense as expecting the rapture, or believing in witchcraft, or thinking Donald Trump isn't a criminal.

He doesn’t even look at US data very well.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

His anti-vax position already sounds more like a -R and now this:



Strangely specific numbers...

That anti-vaccine overlap between the far left and right-wings was newness. Almost populist.

There was a time and not that long ago that the Democrat party was more focused on the needs of individuals and working class than powerful pharmaceutical monopolies. Especially poor individuals who had no way to discern what large corporations were really up to. Fast forward to today.... when the Democrat challenger even brings up possible issues regarding possible sub standard vaccines brought out before they were trialed properly.... now that candidate now gets branded by you as a republican right wing kook.

Times really have changed indeed.

A friend of mine had a jackass that he named Secretariat. That didn’t make it a horse.