Split Rs vs Ds And The Middle Class - split from RFK -D ???

[laughing dog]

Plus, the poor in country __ ( fill in the blank) live in that country not some poorer one. Telling a poor person in the US that they have it better than a poor person in Haiti is neither comforting or helpful.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, your claim about the portion of the US adult population who belong to the middle class is simply incorrect. They held a slight majority as late as 2020 and are now 50% of the population. They ‘ lost’ about equally to the upper and the lower class, with a slightly larger number moving to the upper class.

The problem with this is that the "middle" class is simply what you define as the middle--there's no actual dividing line, you can pick whatever definition you want to get the answer you want.

The reality is that income has spread out more--high skill pays a lot more of a premium than it used to. If you define "middle" in percentages from a midpoint it's shrinking--but going to both upper and lower.

You are probably too young to realize this but most of the lower class enjoys a much better standard of living than they did 50 years ago, who in turn, enjoyed a much better standard of living than they did during the Great Depression and previously. This is due to both the investment in the social safety net and also technological advances.

Yup, what's actually happening is that a "middle class" lifestyle is moving down the income ladder and has been doing so for a long time. What people in the "middle class" now have would have been in most respects upper class not too long ago.

The problem with this post you just made, and many others is that you like to assert that some point is ‘the problem.’ The other problem with your post is your unwillingness to read links or to acknowledge that the ‘points’ you think you are making have actually been explained in the link.

The problem with your posts is that you somehow feel you are qualified to mansplain to me when in fact you are too lazy to actually read. Middle class is defined in the link. It may or may not align with your personal opinion of what middle class means but I honestly don’t care about your personal definitions, at least until you have the good grace to identify them as personal definitions.

The parameters are defined.

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

At least 30 years ago, probably 40, somebody gave me a comeuppance I've never forgotten.

I said something about the American middle class getting squeezed or something. She said, "Ya know Tom, here in America our poverty line would be very rich for most people. Here, people think that they're poor if their car is really old. Most people don't even know anyone rich enough to own a private car."
Something like that.
Tom

I believe it's Hans Rosling who divides the world up into wealth categories based on their transportation, with each category aspiring to, and occasionally managing to obtain on special occasions, the category above the one they usually belong to.

The most numerous category are those who walk, but aspire to own a bicycle (the poor); Then come those who own a bicycle, who aspire to own a motor vehicle (the middle); Then those who own a motor vehicle, who aspire to travel on an airplane (the rich).

There are two further categories: At the lowest end are those who go barefoot, and aspire to own shoes (the destitute); And at the opposite end are those who own (or routinely travel on) a privately owned airplane (the ultra rich).

The US population are almost all in the fourth of these five categories (rich); they own cars, and aspire to become (frequent) fliers. And many are at the top of that class, in that they get to fly places on a fairly regular basis, while falling short of being ultra rich.

Why would I aspire to become a frequent flyer? Flying frequently is a means to accomplishing something else, it is not a goal.

 

[Toni]

Well, your claim about the portion of the US adult population who belong to the middle class is simply incorrect. They held a slight majority as late as 2020 and are now 50% of the population. They ‘ lost’ about equally to the upper and the lower class, with a slightly larger number moving to the upper class.

The problem with this is that the "middle" class is simply what you define as the middle--there's no actual dividing line, you can pick whatever definition you want to get the answer you want.

The reality is that income has spread out more--high skill pays a lot more of a premium than it used to. If you define "middle" in percentages from a midpoint it's shrinking--but going to both upper and lower.

You are probably too young to realize this but most of the lower class enjoys a much better standard of living than they did 50 years ago, who in turn, enjoyed a much better standard of living than they did during the Great Depression and previously. This is due to both the investment in the social safety net and also technological advances.

Yup, what's actually happening is that a "middle class" lifestyle is moving down the income ladder and has been doing so for a long time. What people in the "middle class" now have would have been in most respects upper class not too long ago.

The problem with this post you just made, and many others is that you like to assert that some point is ‘the problem.’ The other problem with your post is your unwillingness to read links or to acknowledge that the ‘points’ you think you are making have actually been explained in the link.

The problem with your posts is that you somehow feel you are qualified to mansplain to me when in fact you are too lazy to actually read. Middle class is defined in the link. It may or may not align with your personal opinion of what middle class means but I honestly don’t care about your personal definitions, at least until you have the good grace to identify them as personal definitions.

The parameters are defined.

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

I don’t think you understand what arbitrary means.

 

[Patooka]

You didn't come up with this Amish "guess" on your own, it's popular antivax dogma, but it's a stupid myth/lie.

I think it's obvious that RVonse is getting his info/talking points from right-wing rags that continually lie to him. Then he brings the lies here, they get disproven, he gets humiliated. The real question is, why does he keep going back for more lies? Is it because he wants to believe them more than he wants the truth?

In RVonse's defense, he has avoided all the Trump threads since he's been indicted (the very first one I mean). That suggests to me there is some self awareness at least.

 

[bilby]

Why would I aspire to become a frequent flyer?

Flying frequently is a means to accomplishing something else, it is not a goal.

In order to go from where you are, to where you want to be, when where you want to be is further away than your other transportation options make practical sense for.

The exact same reason why a person whose most advanced vehicle is a bicycle might aspire to own a motor vehicle.

Or why a person whose most advanced mode of transportation is a pair of stout shoes might aspire to own a bicycle.

There's literally nothing special about your level of the hierarchy, except your personal experience of inhabiting it. Obviously some people whose most advanced vehicle is a bicycle wonder why anyone would want to drive around all the time. But they're atypical.

For a person whose most advanced means of transportation is a pair of shoes, walking is a means to accomplishing something else, and not an end in itself.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

I don’t think you understand what arbitrary means.

I do understand.

You just like your definition of "middle class" that shows the problem you believe to exist. However, there's nothing special about your definition that makes it right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why would I aspire to become a frequent flyer?

Flying frequently is a means to accomplishing something else, it is not a goal.

In order to go from where you are, to where you want to be, when where you want to be is further away than your other transportation options make practical sense for.

The exact same reason why a person whose most advanced vehicle is a bicycle might aspire to own a motor vehicle.

Or why a person whose most advanced mode of transportation is a pair of stout shoes might aspire to own a bicycle.

There's literally nothing special about your level of the hierarchy, except your personal experience of inhabiting it. Obviously some people whose most advanced vehicle is a bicycle wonder why anyone would want to drive around all the time. But they're atypical.

For a person whose most advanced means of transportation is a pair of shoes, walking is a means to accomplishing something else, and not an end in itself.

But I see nothing that would make me want to frequently travel distances best handled by air.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

I don’t think you understand what arbitrary means.

I do understand.

You just like your definition of "middle class" that shows the problem you believe to exist. However, there's nothing special about your definition that makes it right.

There is nothing about any definition that makes it right. Definitions are useful or not.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

I don’t think you understand what arbitrary means.

I do understand.

You just like your definition of "middle class" that shows the problem you believe to exist. However, there's nothing special about your definition that makes it right.

No, Loren you do not understand. When data is published, the parameters are defined. No competent data scientist simply draws arbitrary parameters or definitions and changes the definitions through the study they published.

People on Internet forums do that, of course.

 

[bilby]

Why would I aspire to become a frequent flyer?

Flying frequently is a means to accomplishing something else, it is not a goal.

In order to go from where you are, to where you want to be, when where you want to be is further away than your other transportation options make practical sense for.

The exact same reason why a person whose most advanced vehicle is a bicycle might aspire to own a motor vehicle.

Or why a person whose most advanced mode of transportation is a pair of stout shoes might aspire to own a bicycle.

There's literally nothing special about your level of the hierarchy, except your personal experience of inhabiting it. Obviously some people whose most advanced vehicle is a bicycle wonder why anyone would want to drive around all the time. But they're atypical.

For a person whose most advanced means of transportation is a pair of shoes, walking is a means to accomplishing something else, and not an end in itself.

But I see nothing that would make me want to frequently travel distances best handled by air.

Hence my use of parentheses.

And this isn't about you. Many people in your wealth bracket do want to frequently travel distances best handled by air. Not all, of course. But many.

 

[RVonse]

You didn't come up with this Amish "guess" on your own, it's popular antivax dogma, but it's a stupid myth/lie.

I think it's obvious that RVonse is getting his info/talking points from right-wing rags that continually lie to him. Then he brings the lies here, they get disproven, he gets humiliated. The real question is, why does he keep going back for more lies? Is it because he wants to believe them more than he wants the truth?

In RVonse's defense, he has avoided all the Trump threads since he's been indicted (the very first one I mean). That suggests to me there is some self awareness at least.

This is exactly how the democrat party has come to the point that the middle class no longer matters to them. From time stamp 23:40 to 26:53

 

[Ford]

Well thank goodness we have this gem of insight from a genuine champion of the middle class. Old white guys in suits, sitting in luxurious red chairs in a room filled with expensive lamps, other luxurious red chairs, and a wall of books in the distance tells me that these two fellas are just working class stiffs like me. Just trying to get by. That's the vibe I get from these two.

I honestly don't understand why the working/middle class don't rush out right away to embrace these obviously regular Joes.

 

[scombrid]

That’s the propaganda that works for them though. Coal jobs left Appalachia a couple of decades ago with mechanization. It won’t matter how much we increase the amount of coal extracted we won’t add appreciable numbers of jobs. The people there know this. But at least Trump paid lip service to their condition with his talk of more coal. For them the Democrats only care about city dwelling minorities, gays, and immigrants. It is what their media tells them day in and day out. It was Democrats that fought along side them in the mine wars that got them a brief shot at decent wages. But the unions that came out of that don’t mean much when it takes drag lines and explosives instead of people to get the coal. And nobody is making the absentee owners invest their take back into the local economy so they are left with a handful of high paying management and equipment operator jobs while everybody and everything else rots. They have a general sense of loss and abandonment and the GOP has used their social norms and prejudice to give them scapegoats.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

I don’t think you understand what arbitrary means.

I do understand.

You just like your definition of "middle class" that shows the problem you believe to exist. However, there's nothing special about your definition that makes it right.

No, Loren you do not understand. When data is published, the parameters are defined. No competent data scientist simply draws arbitrary parameters or definitions and changes the definitions through the study they published.

People on Internet forums do that, of course.

Parameters are defined but that doesn't make the parameters a valid representation of reality.

Yes, the "middle class" by their definition is shrinking. That doesn't mean people's standard of living is declining, though. What it actually reflects is that the range between high and low has spread out as skills have become more and more important in the workplace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That’s the propaganda that works for them though. Coal jobs left Appalachia a couple of decades ago with mechanization. It won’t matter how much we increase the amount of coal extracted we won’t add appreciable numbers of jobs. The people there know this. But at least Trump paid lip service to their condition with his talk of more coal. For them the Democrats only care about city dwelling minorities, gays, and immigrants. It is what their media tells them day in and day out. It was Democrats that fought along side them in the mine wars that got them a brief shot at decent wages. But the unions that came out of that don’t mean much when it takes drag lines and explosives instead of people to get the coal. And nobody is making the absentee owners invest their take back into the local economy so they are left with a handful of high paying management and equipment operator jobs while everybody and everything else rots. They have a general sense of loss and abandonment and the GOP has used their social norms and prejudice to give them scapegoats.

It's not invested into the local economy because the money didn't come from the local economy in the first place. It goes to the people who build that fancy equipment. Force the companies to invest it in the local economy and you are in effect taking it from them, the mines would simply close instead.

 

[RVonse]

Well thank goodness we have this gem of insight from a genuine champion of the middle class. Old white guys in suits, sitting in luxurious red chairs in a room filled with expensive lamps, other luxurious red chairs, and a wall of books in the distance tells me that these two fellas are just working class stiffs like me. Just trying to get by. That's the vibe I get from these two.

I honestly don't understand why the working/middle class don't rush out right away to embrace these obviously regular Joes.

You do have a point well taken with the interviewer since he is an ex-prime minister of Australia.

But Victor Davis Hanson (who did 99% of the talking) grew up on a multi-generation small farm in California (back when small farming could still be done there). And other than authoring several books and being well educated.... he is a perfect example of middle class coming from immigration roots as you can get. He still lives in the small farm house but leases the small land plot to a major agriculture farmer. If he does not have a lot of credibility with the middle class, he should.

 

[Ford]

Well thank goodness we have this gem of insight from a genuine champion of the middle class. Old white guys in suits, sitting in luxurious red chairs in a room filled with expensive lamps, other luxurious red chairs, and a wall of books in the distance tells me that these two fellas are just working class stiffs like me. Just trying to get by. That's the vibe I get from these two.

I honestly don't understand why the working/middle class don't rush out right away to embrace these obviously regular Joes.

You do have a point well taken with the interviewer since he is an ex-prime minister of Australia.

But Victor Davis Hanson (who did 99% of the talking) grew up on a multi-generation small farm in California (back when small farming could still be done there). And other than authoring several books and being well educated.... he is a perfect example of middle class coming from immigration roots as you can get. He still lives in the small farm house but leases the small land plot to a major agriculture farmer. If he does not have a lot of credibility with the middle class, he should.

Ah...landed gentry who became a university professor. Perfect middle class! I look forward to reading his 2019 book "The Case for Trump" as I'm sure it is an argument as to why a billionaire real estate investor is the perfect representative for the common man!

 

[bilby]

You do have a point well taken with the interviewer since he is an ex-prime minister of Australia.

John Anderson is not an ex-prime minister of Australia.

He used to be deputy prime minister under Prime Minister John Howard.

The position of deputy prime minister is given to the leader of the National Party when the Liberal Party are in power, because the Liberal and National parties have been in coalition since 1923, with the National Party as the junior partner.

It's not a particularly important role in Australian government; Its relationship to the role of prime minister is similar to the relationship between the office of Vice President to that of the President in the USA, but without the importance that the VP role carries as a 'springboard' towards the top job - if the VP were basically ineligible to subsequently run for President in their own right, that would make the position analogous to being a National Party deputy PM.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, it's got a definition--my point is that any definition of "middle class" is inherently arbitrary.

I don’t think you understand what arbitrary means.

I do understand.

You just like your definition of "middle class" that shows the problem you believe to exist. However, there's nothing special about your definition that makes it right.

No, Loren you do not understand. When data is published, the parameters are defined. No competent data scientist simply draws arbitrary parameters or definitions and changes the definitions through the study they published.

People on Internet forums do that, of course.

Parameters are defined but that doesn't make the parameters a valid representation of reality.

You realize that applies to your parameters.

Yes, the "middle class" by their definition is shrinking. That doesn't mean people's standard of living is declining, though. What it actually reflects is that the range between high and low has spread out as skills have become more and more important in the workplace.

First, determining whether or not someone’s or sone groups standard of living has changed requires a definition of standard of living.

Second, skills have always been important in the workplace. Now different skills are getting a premium than before.