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RussiaGate

Loren Pechtel said:
barbos said:
Did you check the date? April 16, 2015 Crimea is not Ukraine anymore. He talks about Eastern Ukraine.
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Being occupied by Moscow doesn't make it not Ukraine.
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Being illegally obtained by Kiev does not make it is not Russia. Yes, Crimea had a legal right to leave Ukraine and were planning a referendum shortly after USSR dissolution, Kiev managed to shut it down, illegally so. Funny thing is, almost everything that happened back then was illegal, including USSR dissolvement. So legally speaking Soviet Union still exists. So I would not have been so hard-assed if I were Ukrainian.

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Copernicus1 said:
barbos said:
What if there were no memorandum? Would you be OK with "occupation"/"annexation" then?
Memorandum is worthless piece of paper which Putin did not sign. It was not ratified by Russian Parliament, so all it was required on the part of Putin is to say "We withdraw from this "agreement"" and then go play golf fishing, that's it, that how much this document is worth. It was a ploy to get nukes out of Ukraine, nothing more.
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Russia had committed to the agreement and was also obliged not to invade a country that had not attacked it. If his invasion were legitimate, then he would have felt no need to lie about sending in Russian troops in the first place.

barbos said:
barbos said:
He lied when he claimed that Russia had not invaded Crimea.
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We have been over this, he did not lie technically, he avoided the question by saying "It could be anybody" You should listen to white House briefings, they do it all the time.
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Not only did Putin lie, but you are lying about his lying. For example, on Thursday, April 16, 2015, he said "I will say this clearly: There are no Russian troops in Ukraine." (See Putin: 'I will say this clearly: There are no Russian troops in Ukraine') But that was just one of many times when he lied repeatedly in front of cameras.
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Did you check the date? April 16, 2015 Crimea is not Ukraine anymore. He talks about Eastern Ukraine.
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Oh, right. He actually invaded Crimea, lied about using Russian troops to do it, annexed Crimea (thus now being able to claim he had no Russian troops in Ukraine), then invaded Ukraine A SECOND TIME, lied again about there being no Russian troops in Ukraine, and then admitted again that he had been lying. You are trying to maintain that he did not technically lie during the first round of invasions, and giving him a pass on his second lie.

So your only defense of Putin not lying is in reference to Crimea. However, we have a record of that sequence of lies, too. See, for example, this Time Magazine report Putin's Confessions on Crimea Expose Kremlin Media, and this old Sputniknews report: Putin Denies Sending Russian Troops to Crimea. Or you could just watch a short video on how his story changed:

[YOUTUBE]Z8AMsRx2jjY[/YOUTUBE]
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I believe I answered you the first time.
 
barbos said:
Funny thing is, almost everything that happened back then was illegal, including USSR dissolvement. So legally speaking Soviet Union still exists.
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And murder victims should be happy to learn that they are not dead, legally speaking.
 
Cobalt said:
barbos said:
Funny thing is, almost everything that happened back then was illegal, including USSR dissolvement. So legally speaking Soviet Union still exists.
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And murder victims should be happy to learn that they are not dead, legally speaking.
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Yes, redistricting Crimea back to Ukraine again is as likely as making dead alive again.
I am glad you finally accepted that.
 
blastula said:
Trump is Treason.

Congress: Trump Won’t Implement Russia Sanctions—and He Won’t Tell Us Why
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Jimmy Higgins said:
Trausti said:
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Wow. Never in my life did I think I'd see Republicans siding with the Russians... and making such light of it.
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Well, now that President Blackenstein is no longer in office, they need someone else to bully, might as well be liberals wondering about inappropriate ties to Russia. It makes as much logical sense and has as much logical consistency as anything else Republicans purport to believe in.
 
It may be illogical, but argument by ridicule is a very popular rhetorical ploy, so it isn't hard to find fatuous arguments against Trump. The Russiagate scandal is anything but fatuous, but Republicans can be dismiss it as if it were. They know that they need all the help they can get, and the Russian government is always very helpful to those who weaken their enemies. In 2016, they essentially decapitated the US government, but they also served the interests of Donald Trump and the Republican Party, which was staring at a very significant defeat in 2016.
 
Copernicus1 said:
In 2016, they essentially decapitated the US government, but they also served the interests of Donald Trump and the Republican Party, which was staring at a very significant defeat in 2016.
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They didn't decapitate it, just removed the brain that had been in the White House and replaced it with a defective one...shades of Young Frankenstein.

I'm actually wondering if their original intention was just to introduce some chaos into the process, and Trump getting elected was beyond what they expected. They've had a useful idiot in the Oval Office for over 9 months now, and don't seem to know what to do with their prize.
 
Ford said:
Copernicus1 said:
In 2016, they essentially decapitated the US government, but they also served the interests of Donald Trump and the Republican Party, which was staring at a very significant defeat in 2016.
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They didn't decapitate it, just removed the brain that had been in the White House and replaced it with a defective one...shades of Young Frankenstein.

I'm actually wondering if their original intention was just to introduce some chaos into the process, and Trump getting elected was beyond what they expected. They've had a useful idiot in the Oval Office for over 9 months now, and don't seem to know what to do with their prize.
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It was a military intelligence operation that has been in the works for a long time. The FSB (formerly KGB) has engaged in these tactics for at least half a century. They recruit people from academia and the business world all the time, and Donald Trump was an easy mark, given his personal weaknesses. Of course, he was a long shot to begin with, but it paid off. Putin had a personal grudge against Hillary Clinton, and the worst he would get out of this was to weaken her presidency. Being able to manipulate the electoral college with active collaboration of the opposition party was a bonus. They managed to install stooges as both Trump's campaign manager and his National Security Adviser. This was an FSB dream come true. The military intelligence services had their fingerprints all over the tactically-planned releases of hacked DNC emails. Given the power of a US President to disrupt and undermine longstanding US foreign and domestic policies, including the weakening of ties to strategic alliances, I would say that "decapitation" is an accurate metaphor for what they accomplished. It will take a long time for the US to recover, if it can pull itself out of the downward spiral. Meanwhile, both Russia and China are moving swiftly to take advantage of our disarray and loss of international standing.
 
Elixir said:
Copernicus1 said:
Meanwhile, Twitter, the current major platform for development of US foreign and domestic policy, has lowered the boom on Russia: Twitter Bans Two Kremlin-Backed News Outlets From Advertising. Take that, Putin!
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No problem as long as the puppet refuses to implement the sanctions he signed.
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Donald Trump is a master at gaming the system, and he has discovered an important weapon in his arsenal: doing nothing. His job is to enforce the law--a law that was passed with a veto-proof majority and that he himself signed. However, that same Congress that passed the law will never remove him from office, so there are no consequences if he simply does nothing.
 
MSNBC is reporting an indictment will be revealed on Monday. I suspect it will be Manafort.
 
ZiprHead said:
MSNBC is reporting an indictment will be revealed on Monday. I suspect it will be Manafort.
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Washington (CNN)A federal grand jury in Washington on Friday approved the first charges in the investigation led by special counsel Robert Mueller, according to sources briefed on the matter.

The charges are still sealed under orders from a federal judge. Plans were prepared Friday for anyone charged to be taken into custody as soon as Monday, the sources said. It is unclear what the charges are.

A spokesman for the special counsel's office declined to comment.
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/27/politics/first-charges-mueller-investigation/index.html
 
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