Russian Invasion of Ukraine - tactics and logistics

[ZiprHead]

There are several "we quit" videos from Russian side as well. And you know the dozens of phone calls where Russians call their mothers or wives and whine about how they want to get out. But these are anecdotal evidence. One or two quitters don't mean anything.

Show the damn video. OK?

You first.

 

[barbos]

You first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEXNNf3Rku0

 

[jonatha]

Sure, the guy with a beard and southern accent said so.
I feel so stupid now.

It's on youtube. That typically seems to convince you....

 

[Jayjay]

Of course, your evidence for Ukrainians "murdering civilian population" is either Russian state propaganda, or non-existent.

No, it exists just is not being shown in the West.
Or rather not being widely reported.

Then show me. Just one credible case, where Ukrainians deliberately murdered people or fired indiscriminately at civilians.

According to UN, most recorded civilian casualties (3-to-1 ratio) are on Ukrainian controlled territory.

Well, first, UN does not have observers on Russian controlled territories. And second, ukrainian forces murder civilian population on the territory they control just fine.
Why would not they? it's russian pro-russians.

Well, you're right. UN figures are a bad metric because the casualties in Russian-occupied areas are not known and might never be known because Russia covers them up. Also the comparison isn't fair, because most civilian casualties in Ukrainian controlled territory are caused by Russia, and most civilian casualties in Russian-occupied territory are also caused by Russia. Just not due to artillery, but by going door to door and killing everyone who has been in the army, the police, owns guns, has political ties, looks at the Russian occupiers funny, or has something worth stealing.

Look at Bucha. There is nothing that Ukraine has ever done, not this year or since 2014, that comes even close. And Russia is doing exactly the same thing in every town and city they control: we know this for a fact in towns where Russia had to withdraw which were just as bad.

 

[Jayjay]

This is probably the pattern in 99% of cases where Russia claims that Ukraine shelled civilians. It's all lies.

Fucking bullshit. The west admitted on multiple occasions that it was ukrainian side who were murdering civilian population. They admit and then quickly forget.
Russia intents to keep all the land they manage to occupy. Nazis know that and that's why they have no problem with shelling them.

This narrative that "the west admitted" this or that is nonsense, because the west is not a monolith. I don't expect there to not be collateral damage in war. If Russian military puts their troops or equipment inside cities, then buildings near them will get hit. And there are going to be a lot of misses, missiles falling short, misidentified targets, and so on. This is what happens in war on both sides.

But Ukraine doesn't level entire cities or fire at hospitals just for the heck of it. And as you said, Ukraine has a chronic problem with ammunition. They can't afford to shoot at random civilian targets. Russia doesn't have that problem.

 

[laughing dog]

This is probably the pattern in 99% of cases where Russia claims that Ukraine shelled civilians. It's all lies.

Fucking bullshit.

You have no idea how ironic that response is to every rational reader on this board.

 

[Jayjay]

There are several "we quit" videos from Russian side as well. And you know the dozens of phone calls where Russians call their mothers or wives and whine about how they want to get out. But these are anecdotal evidence. One or two quitters don't mean anything.

Show the damn video. OK?

Russian army is winning and don't suffer much casualties while doing so.
Western media is lying to you.

Of course the Russian army is winning. But it has taken obviously very heavy casualties, and may still do so. It's not enough for Ukraine to "win" in any meaningful sense of the word, but the point is that Russia needs to suffer enough losses that it'll sue for peace.

 

[Jayjay]

1.4 million people had to flee from Crimea and Donbas after 2014, and a lot of those volunteered to fight before it was mandatory. Your characterization that they don't consider the eastern part of the country their home is just false.

Pretty much nobody fled Crimea even some ukro-nazis decided to get russian passports just in case.

The figure I remember included Crimea, so while I don't know the totals, that's all I know. The source was UN refugee organization's report from a few years back.

You do realize that if all those 1.4 million came from Donbas, that makes my argument stronger?

There were few scandals with rabidly pro-ukraine assholes having russian passports.
And these who fled Donbas, fled for Russia and even these who fled for Ukraine does not mean they were pro-ukrainian.

No, the 1.4 million figure excludes those who went to Russia. I seem to recall that was 700k or a million or something. But that's irrelevant. The point is that a lot of the people fighting for Ukraine in Donbas since 2014 are locals, or at least they were until kicked out by Russia in 2014.

And it does not even matter. Nazis don't really care one way or another, they are nazis.
they fucking blow bridges to prevent retreat of their own troops.

Assuming you're referring to the bridge to Severodonetsk, no, of course they didn't. But Russian propaganda would have you believe that.

Eastern Ukraine is overwhelmingly pro-russian, much more so now because these few who were pro-ukrainian have left it or even became pro-russian.

Yes, of course. The ones who remain are either collaborators, or those who couldn't leave, and they've been brainwashed by Russian propaganda for 8 years. But just because the territories became pro-Russian after being forcefully russified and ethnically cleansed doesn't justify the invasion. In fact, the opposite is true. That makes Russian occupations in other territories even more hideous. "See how pro-Russian these areas are after we killed all the anti-Russians!" isn't a very good argument.

For example Kherson is the least pro-Russian area in the South, but if Russia remains there, everyone who supports Ukraine will be killed or forced to run away, and everyone else is violently silenced. Heck, Russia even had to bring in people from Crimea to celebrate Russia Day last weekend in Kherson, because they couldn't find enough locals for their propaganda pieces.

 

[Jayjay]

while Russian soldiers are in it just for the loot

Unfortunately for you the opposite is true.

Only because eventually there's not going to be any more stuff to steal, but they still have to survive the rest of their contract.

What that supposed to illustrate?

Looters stacking their tanks with stolen items.

 

[Harry Bosch]

while Russian soldiers are in it just for the loot

Unfortunately for you the opposite is true.

Only because eventually there's not going to be any more stuff to steal, but they still have to survive the rest of their contract.

What that supposed to illustrate?

Looters stacking their tanks with stolen items.

I was struck by the fact that Barbos didn't see anything wrong in that picture! You had to explain it to him. As a former soldier, I can say that this is not how most soldiers act. Killing civilians, looting, stealing tractors, stealing civilian goods, and blowing up civilian targets and just making life miserable is not how soldiers are trained. The Russian soldiers in Ukraine are despicable looters. No honor. They are war criminals.

 

[ryanazim]

They are truly Nazis. The comparison is very apt.

Not really. The chief characteristic of Nazism is its genocidal hatred of Jews. At least that is what the National Socialist regime is best known for.

Good ans.

 

[barbos]

Nazi imbecile versus Russian musician.

I have to admit I underestimated ukrainian nazi propaganda.
They are as good if not better than original nazis at brainwashing their population.

 

[SLD]

Let's not forget that Ukraine

Ukraine is running out of everything war related - ammunition, fuel, soldiers.
Russian army has 40x advantage in artillery units and 60x in ammunition for them.
There are countless videos of ukrainian units quitting because they have no support with only AK-74 against artillery. These stupid mercenaries are quitting too, they say "We wanted to kill some people but instead we are being constantly being bombed with no chance to even see these russians"
The only reason Ukraine is still kinda "standing" is because Russia does not want Ukraine to be utterly destroyed, after all, large parts of it will be Russia again.

You’re claiming they have a 40-1 advantage and yet they still can’t defeat Ukraine? Seriously? If they such an advantage why didn’t they take Kyev? Why haven’t they conquered all of Donetsk area? They’ve barely advanced 10 miles in the last month - if that. And they’ve lost other territory as well. If they have this numerical advantage that you claim this war should have long been over with. Either that or you are admitting that they are utterly incompetent.

 

[Patooka]

They are as good if not better than original nazis at brainwashing their population.

One thing I've noticed is that throughout this thread you have never, not once properly responded to Putin hiring actual Nazis (eg Wagner Group), despite that fact being pointed out to you numerous times.

Many, many times.

 

[Copernicus]

They are as good if not better than original nazis at brainwashing their population.

One thing I've noticed is that throughout this thread you have never, not once properly responded to Putin hiring actual Nazis (eg Wagner Group), despite that fact being pointed out to you numerous times.

Many, many times.

That's how an  ad nauseam argument works:

Ad nauseam is a Latin term for an argument or other discussion that has continued to the point of nausea.[1][2] For example, "this has been discussed ad nauseam" indicates that the topic has been discussed extensively and those involved have grown sick of it. The fallacy of dragging the conversation to an ad nauseam state in order to then assert one's position as correct due to it not having been contradicted is also called argumentum ad infinitum (to infinity) and argument from repetition.[3]

The person using such a tactic simply fails to respond to counterarguments and refutations and carries on as if they had never been made.

 

[bilby]

As a former soldier, I can say that this is not how most soldiers act.

As an (amateur) historian, I can say that you are completely wrong. Soldiers not looting, raping, and stealing is an incredibly rare and anomalous situation that didn’t really happen at all before the C20th, and was never the dominant behaviour globally, but was very limited indeed to specific theatres of war - and even in those times and places where it was not the norm, it was rarely if ever completely absent from any war zone.

In the vast majority of history, commanders considered discipline to be exceptionally good if their soldiers restricted themselves to only preying upon the enemy, and refrained from robbing their own side.

There’s a reason why the Third Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits billeting soldiers in the homes of Americans. Civilians expected their homes to be trashed, their valuables stolen, and their wives and daughters raped, if soldiers were given access. Only a fool would have expected anything different.

 

[ZiprHead]

More HIMARS On The Way Once Ukraine Shows It Can Use Them In Combat

Ukrainian troops are a week from finishing a crash course on operating M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, or HIMARS. The systems are donated by the U.S. and there will be more to follow once Ukrainian forces demonstrate their effective use in combat, a senior U.S. defense official said on June 14.

Colin Kahl, U.S. Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, called the first four HIMARS systems promised to Ukraine, along with 227mm Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMLRS) rockets they'll be supplied with, an “initial tranche. It is “absolutely fair” to characterize the long-range rocket artillery systems as the first of many the U.S. will send to Ukraine’s aid, Kahl said at the Center For A New American Security (CNAS) think tank's National Security Conference in Washington, D.C. . . .

Kahl emphasized that the GMLRS rockets for the U.S.-supplied M142s are precision-guided munitions weighing about 500 pounds apiece and are not fired in large salvos. Instead, they are fired at specific targets and have the effect of a precision airstrike, allowing Ukraine to “do a lot with a little, or you don't need a lot to have a significant effect.” Before U.S. officials officially announced HIMARS donations to Ukraine, The War Zone made exactly the same point about these systems not being used as salvo weapons when firing guided rockets in this piece.

 

[Tigers!]

There’s a reason why the Third Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits billeting soldiers in the homes of Americans. Civilians expected their homes to be trashed, their valuables stolen, and their wives and daughters raped, if soldiers were given access. Only a fool would have expected anything different.

Pity about the non-Americans though.

 

[laughing dog]

Nazi imbecile versus Russian musician.

I have to admit I underestimated ukrainian nazi propaganda.
They are as good if not better than original nazis at brainwashing their population.

Maybe, but judging from your posts, they have nothing on Putin and his crowd.

 

[Jayjay]

You first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEXNNf3Rku0

The first one seems to be prisoners of war in a propaganda piece. That's not a "we quit!" video, it's a "we were captured and paraded on camera!" video.

Second video seems valid. From what I can gather, they were detained and accused for desertion. The third one also seems to be true. It's territorial forces in the western Ukraine saying they don't want to fight in Donbas because they have no training. Not sure what happened to them.

Like I said before, these are just anecdotal cases which don't reflect the overall motivation of the army. You can find similar videos from the other side.