Russian Invasion of Ukraine - tactics and logistics

[Jarhyn]

Th

Sure, sure. The Russians' incursion into Ukraine is nothing but a peaceful mission to rid its population of Nazi oppression.

Yes denazification and demilitarization.
Also I would like to add, that NATO totally sucked in Yugoslavia which is fair comparison to Ukraine. Both Ukraine and Yugoslavia have/had large and fairly sophisticated anti-aircraft defense. Iraq had very little of that, Afganistan had none of that.
Ukrainians moved remaining S-300 into the cities and keep them off for the most part. And Russians as I said before are not bombing anything in the cities.

By the way, the ukrainian terrorist ace who bombed Lugansk City Hall ...... is dead now, was shot down on March 2.

I hate to say it, but there really is no reasoning with the above. Not that it isn't happening all ready, but the world (not just the west) really needs to unite and absolutely attempt to bankrupt any country that invades another. Period. No more trade for Russia. No swift. Boycott any and all cultural events. If they are going to kill others for no reason, they should be evicted from benefiting from the world.

The biggest issue I see is the internet. Russia uses this surface to wage war against developed nations and to organize attacks.

Memetic weapons can do a LOT of damage, and of a kind that remains toxic in the form of echoing memetic effects. It is exceedingly hard to deal with fucked up ideas. They are strengthened by anything fire or fire adjacent.

Instead you need to describe them carefully and then distill the proof of their embedded nonsense down to something that can be delivered in an easy lesson, and still this vaccine will not work on everyone! Some people will still become infectious carriers of the mere nonsense rather than carriers of the solved nonsense!

This is why the lie gets around the world before the truth has legs.

 

[Elixir]

Instead you need to describe them carefully and then distill the proof of their embedded nonsense down to something that can be delivered in an easy lesson,

IOW you need to perform the impossible feat of reducing an incredibly complex feature of human interaction to something intellectually accessible to incredibly stupid people.
Get right on that!

 

[Jarhyn]

Instead you need to describe them carefully and then distill the proof of their embedded nonsense down to something that can be delivered in an easy lesson,

IOW you need to perform the impossible feat of reducing an incredibly complex feature of human interaction to something intellectually accessible to incredibly stupid people.
Get right on that!

Well, the other way, burning ideas rather than inoculating against them, generally only makes the ideas more persistent.

 

[Elixir]

Distilling proofs of nonsense only works on those able and willing to reason it through. Most such folk don’t need any convincing.

 

[SLD]

I’m beginning to think that Putin’s decision to revert to terror bombing maybe the same strategic error that Hitler made in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe was inflicting real damage on the RAF and the war of attrition might have paid real dividends had they not shifted to terror bombing London. This gave the RAF a respite that they needed.

By concentrating on pounding key cities, Russia could be allowing other forces to the west and their Air Force and other armed forces to build up for a counterattack. Of course, the Ukrainians are still doggedly defending their capitol, but I wonder what their doing in western Ukraine and if they will counterattack in an attempt to hit Russian supply lines.

 

[Elixir]

Been wondering about that, and the vulnerability of their 40-mile long convoy stalled outside Kyiv. That's 80 miles of flanks to protect, and it's hard to see how that would hold up if there were simultaneous coordinated attacks against it... over the course of 40 miles there must be some topographic features that would make defense of a single column nearly impossible. Or so I would think, but IANA mil strategist.

 

[SLD]

Been wondering about that, and the vulnerability of their 40-mile long convoy stalled outside Kyiv. That's 80 miles of flanks to protect, and it's hard to see how that would hold up if there were simultaneous coordinated attacks against it... over the course of 40 miles there must be some topographic features that would make defense of a single column nearly impossible. Or so I would think, but IANA mil strategist.

It wouldn’t take much, if they could get close, they could hit just a few sites and many others would panic. That it hasn’t happened yet is concerning. The Russians aren’t totally stupid, they’ve got to have some flanking protection out there. At least keeping a close eye on things.

 

[Elixir]

Been wondering about that, and the vulnerability of their 40-mile long convoy stalled outside Kyiv. That's 80 miles of flanks to protect, and it's hard to see how that would hold up if there were simultaneous coordinated attacks against it... over the course of 40 miles there must be some topographic features that would make defense of a single column nearly impossible. Or so I would think, but IANA mil strategist.

It wouldn’t take much, if they could get close, they could hit just a few sites and many others would panic. That it hasn’t happened yet is concerning. The Russians aren’t totally stupid, they’ve got to have some flanking protection out there. At least keeping a close eye on things.

Right... it would probably have to be an "over the horizon" attack. Wouldn't some of the gear we've been sending them be up to that?

 

[Swammerdami]

Now, you are getting annoying. Russians are specifically not doing that.
That Kharkiv city hall bombing? "Ukrainians" did that.
And it's "ukrainians" who terror bombed Lugansk with actual fatalities and injuries, not russians. Your Media choose not to report that.

I lack the information to understand or fact-check barbos' claim.
Is he claiming that anti-Putin Ukraine forces engage in extensive "false flag" operations? Is there any basis for this besides Putinist propaganda?

 

[Elixir]

Is there any basis for this besides Putinist propaganda?

Probably not. But it's a waste of time to try to disprove all the putinisms offered by our Russian friend. They can make 'em up faster than anyone can disprove them, so why bother? It's a lot easier to lay bare their denials of doing what they are doing, i.e. shelling civilian areas. Yes, pootey claims it's those mythical Nazis doing the shelling, and that is as ridiculous as the assertion from a couple of weeks ago that "there will be no invasion". Nobody who has had the least bit of exposure to the actual footage of this war is going to swallow those whoppers.

 

[Jayjay]

Now, you are getting annoying. Russians are specifically not doing that.
That Kharkiv city hall bombing? "Ukrainians" did that.
And it's "ukrainians" who terror bombed Lugansk with actual fatalities and injuries, not russians. Your Media choose not to report that.

I lack the information to understand or fact-check barbos' claim.
Is he claiming that anti-Putin Ukraine forces engage in extensive "false flag" operations?

Yes.

Is there any basis for this besides Putinist propaganda?

No. He's just parroting whatever he sees on pro-Russian propaganda channels, and ignores any contradicting evidence.

 

[Jayjay]

[Graphic images removed]

Ukraine should become part of NATO. They know how to fight! They are sticking it to those fuckers. Russian military sucks! They can only terror bomb cities from afar. The question to ask is whether we can give them sufficient aid and supplies that they could make a difference. Now we are mulling giving them MiG-29’s back from Poland. Need to get them thousands of Javelin missiles and long range artillery. Need to pound their forces in Belarus and back in Russia such as air and logistic hubs.

Now, you are getting annoying. Russians are specifically not doing that.
That Kharkiv city hall bombing? "Ukrainians" did that.

No, they didn't, and I gave a detailed explanation why in this thread. You just ignored it, and now you're spouting off the same nonsense again.

And it's "ukrainians" who terror bombed Lugansk with actual fatalities and injuries, not russians. Your Media choose not to report that.

And the Russians and the separatists they backed caused just as many if not more fatalities and injuries, plus millions of refugees. Such things tend to happen in wars. Russia shot down a passenger plane with almost 300 people, and it still keeps lying it didn't happen.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sure, sure. The Russians' incursion into Ukraine is nothing but a peaceful mission to rid its population of Nazi oppression.

Yes denazification and demilitarization.

Seriously barbos. You have an analytical mind. You have to know the word "denazification" is a bullshit one. What in the heck does that mean? In Germany, it meant getting rid of Nazi symbology. In Ukraine? How is Putin going to "denazify" Ukraine?

When the underlying "goal" of a military campaign has no viable solution, one has to think there are problems.

 

[crazyfingers]

If Barbos can answer the question without putting himself at risk, I am curious what Western news sources he even has access to.

 

[Elixir]

Russians paid a truly terrible price for having collaborated with Nazis early in WWII. So horrific was that trauma, that still today “fighting Nazis” is something to which the Russian people can be counted on to respond. At least they could, up to a few weeks ago. But Pootey has abused that particular panic button so badly that now he has to keep his subjects totally in the dark, lest they realize that there are no Nazis to speak of in Ukraine, and Pootey is simply throwing away more Russian lives to serve his vanity.

Mike Quigley was on TV today recommending that the US treat Ukraine as a NATO member, saying they’ve earned it. He says we should not wait to go after the Russian aggressors, destroy the forces arrayed against Ukraine and let Pootey deal with it however he will. I’m not sure that’s a good idea at all. But it seems quite certain that it will become a better and better idea every day that Pootey’s genocide continues, so we are going to soon end up in that spot unless something changes in a hurry.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If Barbos can answer the question without putting himself at risk, I am curious what Western news sources he even has access to.

Does it matter? He believes a non-pro Russian government in Ukraine has to be a western coup. He actually believes Nazis are a problem in Ukraine (not anti-Semitism, but Nazis). After 20+ years of failed Putin leadership to drive Russia's economy into fourth third gear, some Russians, for whatever reason, feel like they have to defend their leader that has helped usurp their wealth. It is like a battered wife syndrome.

 

[crazyfingers]

If Barbos can answer the question without putting himself at risk, I am curious what Western news sources he even has access to.

Does it matter? He believes a non-pro Russian government in Ukraine has to be a western coup. He actually believes Nazis are a problem in Ukraine (not anti-Semitism, but Nazis). After 20+ years of failed Putin leadership to drive Russia's economy into fourth third gear, some Russians, for whatever reason, feel like they have to defend their leader that has helped usurp their wealth. It is like a battered wife syndrome.

Curiosity given that the state controlled Russian media is spouting one line while nearly the entire rest of the world counting probably thousands of independent and competing sources are providing a consistent message to the contrary.

 

[Elixir]

Curiosity given that the state controlled Russian media is spouting one line while nearly the entire rest of the world counting probably thousands of independent and competing sources are providing a consistent message to the contrary.

Speaks to the effectiveness of the New Iron Curtain.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Since the demonstrations against vote rigging and corruption in 2011 dissidents and opposition members have been systematically purged. In short the population has been terrorized same as in North Korea. And state media is feeding the population lies everyday so it makes sense the situation there.

 

[SLD]

If Barbos can answer the question without putting himself at risk, I am curious what Western news sources he even has access to.

Does it matter? He believes a non-pro Russian government in Ukraine has to be a western coup. He actually believes Nazis are a problem in Ukraine (not anti-Semitism, but Nazis). After 20+ years of failed Putin leadership to drive Russia's economy into fourth third gear, some Russians, for whatever reason, feel like they have to defend their leader that has helped usurp their wealth. It is like a battered wife syndrome.

Crazyfingers raises a crucial point that much in the west are ignoring as they watch what’s unfolding in Ukraine. Modern warfare isn’t so much about tanks and guns and planes, but is most often about information warfare. Psyops if you will. Most of the articles I read say we need to supply Ukraine with weapons, tighten economic sanctions against Russia, and strengthening NATO as a counter weight. All well and good, but won’t do significant damage to Putin to force a change. The only way this ends is with Putin‘s demise. And that must come internally.

But how does that happen? The answer is information operations. Russia has now banned all mention of the operation as a war, with penalties of 15 years in prison simply for calling a war a war. Any negative or critical reporting of events in Ukraine is a 20 year prison sentence. Putin then issues a statement that Russians are free to protest and Ukrainians are being executed by their government if they disagree. If you disagree with that statement though you will go to jail for 20 years. He’s just re-established the Soviet system of totalitarianism only worse, he’s actually gone full blown Stalinist on them. No dissent is to be tolerated. Kruschev was more liberal.

At the same time, he has blocked Russian access to foreign media, instituting a Russian firewall on the internet. As such, all Russians get are his official line, that this is a limited military incursion to rescue Ukraine from fascist oppression. Over and over again. With no other news source to counter it, Russians are believing it. At least for now!

But as Lincoln wisely pointed out, you can’t fool all of the people all of the time. (Although I suppose the Catholic Church came the closest, but that’s a different issue.). More specifically, how do we breach these censorship firewalls? I do not understand how those work or if they can be breached at all. How do we get information into the hands of ordinary Russians fast enough and strong enough so that they start demanding changes in their government? Obviously not all websites are blocked as Barbos has been here. What about email? But with whom and would that be too easily monitored or blocked? What about non internet ways? Do ordinary Russians listen to radio broadcasts? I suspect many are hungry for outside news, knowing that their news sources are propaganda. Those skeptics can convince others. In the Soviet Union, networks of dissenters spread news quickly despite the risks. It can be done, but I wonder if we are even trying to do it.

In the end, I see this conflict ending when the Russian people say enough, not when the Ukrainians do.

Thoughts?