Sexual faithfullnes

[DrZoidberg]

In another thread the concept of cuckoldry was discussed. A conservative implied that it is a source of shame.

I'm liberal, and I've always hung about with the gay and queer scene. I'm boringly straight as an arrow (and a man). And I've always had zero hang-ups about my body or sex. I think it's the result of my parents being hippies. As a child I got exposed to naked bodies and adult sexuality (in the best possible way). So when it became my turn to have sex I was well prepared.

I should also add that all my long-term relationships have at some point or another been open. I'm much too confident and secure in myself to feel threatened by other men. If my girlfriend leaves me for a lover, then I guess she didn't love me anyway and it's all for the best. And I off course enjoy sleeping with other women than my girlfriend. Me being in love has never prevented that.

So this whole worry about unfaithfulness and cuckoldry just strikes me as odd. To me we're sometimes less or more interested in sex. Both people in a relationship won't have the same sexual appetites. It's just natural and normal for the person who is more horny to find fulfillment elsewhere, just to satiate the sexual need. Nothing kills the relationship faster than sexual death.

I must admit that I have pretty bad grasp of what the norms are around this. I just don't know how normal or odd I am.

So, that's what I'm asking. What is your take on this? What are the rules and social norms surrounding dating and sex in your community? Should a cuckold feel shame about it?

 

[Angry Floof]

To a conservative mind, everything is a source of shame, and shaming as a weapon is the go-to response to anything, especially matters involving teh evil sexytime.

 

[DBT]

Depends on the nature of the relationship. If a couple discusses the issue and both agree to remain faithful to each other, but one of them has a secret affair, this is a betrayal of trust.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Depends on the nature of the relationship. If a couple discusses the issue and both agree to remain faithful to each other, but one of them has a secret affair, this is a betrayal of trust.

My question was more about norms. Is this something kept quiet about where you're from?

 

[DBT]

Depends on the nature of the relationship. If a couple discusses the issue and both agree to remain faithful to each other, but one of them has a secret affair, this is a betrayal of trust.

My question was more about norms. Is this something kept quiet about where you're from?

I was loosely responding to your last sentence - ''Should a cuckold feel shame about it?'' - so, if a betrayal of trust is something to feel shamed about, should not the betrayer feel some shame or remorse, whether caught out or not?

 

[Angry Floof]

Depends on the nature of the relationship. If a couple discusses the issue and both agree to remain faithful to each other, but one of them has a secret affair, this is a betrayal of trust.

My question was more about norms. Is this something kept quiet about where you're from?

I don't know about Australia (where DBT is) but in the US, our pop culture loves stories of infidelity and especially revenge on cheaters if clickbait trends are any indication. The "cuckold" concept is alive and well but mostly comes from culturally and sexually stunted old white guys.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BTW, in a couple of hours I'll be travelling to Berlin to meet up with a group of friends. Tonight's itinery is "Insomnia". Googling it informs me that it's a swingers club. At least I'm keeping to the theme.

But I'm not sure who or what I'll be wife-swapping with, since I'm single.

 

[Bronzeage]

In another thread the concept of cuckoldry was discussed. A conservative implied that it is a source of shame.

I'm liberal, and I've always hung about with the gay and queer scene. I'm boringly straight as an arrow (and a man). And I've always had zero hang-ups about my body or sex. I think it's the result of my parents being hippies. As a child I got exposed to naked bodies and adult sexuality (in the best possible way). So when it became my turn to have sex I was well prepared.

I should also add that all my long-term relationships have at some point or another been open. I'm much too confident and secure in myself to feel threatened by other men. If my girlfriend leaves me for a lover, then I guess she didn't love me anyway and it's all for the best. And I off course enjoy sleeping with other women than my girlfriend. Me being in love has never prevented that.

So this whole worry about unfaithfulness and cuckoldry just strikes me as odd. To me we're sometimes less or more interested in sex. Both people in a relationship won't have the same sexual appetites. It's just natural and normal for the person who is more horny to find fulfillment elsewhere, just to satiate the sexual need. Nothing kills the relationship faster than sexual death.

I must admit that I have pretty bad grasp of what the norms are around this. I just don't know how normal or odd I am.

So, that's what I'm asking. What is your take on this? What are the rules and social norms surrounding dating and sex in your community? Should a cuckold feel shame about it?

There are a few problems with your supposition. First, the use of the word "cuckoldry." There are various meanings attached to this word. A quick google search will find a vast amount of porn dedicated the fantasy of cuckolding, but I don't think that is the matter at hand.

What seems to be the matter is what we commonly call "cheating." Cheating, in any use of the word means a violation of accepted rules. It's difficult to construct any circumstances where cheating is considered a good thing, but to define cheating requires a definition of relationship.

The OP uses the term "open relationship," from which we infer having other sexual partners is accepted by both people. So, cheating is not the best word in this case.

This brings us back to the definition of relationship. For most of the world, the bedrock foundation of a relationship is sexual exclusivity. Both partners decide to have sex with each other and no others. Everything else is built upon that premise. In my very young days, parents decided that "going steady" was too much of a commitment for junior high school students and prohibited it. The get around this, boys and girls dropped the "steady" and were simply "going together". It meant the same thing. In those days, sex was limited to holding hands and kissing, and as much more as privacy allowed. The one thing we understood clearly was, if you were going with a girl, she didn't hold hands or kiss another boy. To do so meant the relationship had not merely been violated, it had ceased to exist.

"Going together" was the single celled relationship from which all others evolved. Beyond sexual exclusivity, the partners now share money and resources. Both are expected to contribute their time and labor to make life easier and more comfortable for both. This is critical, if children result from the relationship. This creates a permanent bond which cannot be erased, no matter what happens between the adults.

When one person has sex with someone outside their exclusive relationship, it's called cheating, because there was an agreement to not do such things. As a skilled and accomplished adulterer, I understand this dynamic very well. Despite the common folk wisdom of "It's just natural and normal for the person who is more horny to find fulfillment elsewhere", if such were true, few relationships would last through the spring semester. Cheating within an exclusive relationship is a very complicated thing and to reduce it to "more horny" ignores the real reasons and reality, as well.

As for the final question in the OP, "Should a cuckold feel shame about it?" it only opens more questions of definition. We'll assume shame to mean public embarrassment and a feeling of lost status in the community. Shame for cuckoldry goes back to a time when a woman was considered a man's property and sexual exclusivity was a property right. Literature is filled with stories of clever men who found ways around a man's defenses and gained happy access to his wife. The wife is complicit and it's always an interesting story. The cuckolded husband either is unaware, or discovers the deception too late. These stories had more currency when it was common for rich old men to take very young wives, a marriage in which the young woman had little voice. The shame of cuckoldry was not in his wife having sex with another man, but in his inability to secure his property. It would have been the same if a neighbor took the man's horse and plowed his fields with it, returning it to the barn unseen.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No, a cuckold should not feel shame about it at all. So long as they are aware and consenting to it, it isn't a problem. Some people even get off on watching others have sex with their spouse. Some do it mutually and together, and we call them swingers Tried it. It was fun and exciting looking into my girlfriend's eyes while we were both fucking other people. Watching her get laid by another man was also quite exciting even when I didn't have another woman there, and likewise was it fun fucking another woman while she was watching and making eye contact with me.

No shame in this. Try it. You may enjoy it.

"Cheating" is really only a question of dishonesty, and not so different than taking money from your partner without them knowing, etc.

 

[credoconsolans]

It's kept secret not out of shame but mostly out of privacy.

How someone's relationship is going - whether open or not - is really no one else's business.

 

[rousseau]

The reason faithfulness is normalized in many places is because sex is about so much more than getting off. Sex is also about affection, desire, love, and commitment. And so it's usually a by-product, not the central theme of a long-term partnership. That same long-term partnership is almost always formed for the purpose of child-rearing and long-term survival, which takes a sturdy bond between partners. If society then goes ahead and finds it acceptable for people to have sex with whoever they want, then that loosens the partnership needed to raise children and survive long-term.

Of course polyamory is becoming more normalized, and if that's your thing that's your thing, but most of the time forming relationships with someone other than your partner is very likely to dissolve the original partnership.

 

[Bronzeage]

The reason faithfulness is normalized in many places is because sex is about so much more than getting off. Sex is also about affection, desire, love, and commitment. And so it's usually a by-product, not the central theme of a long-term partnership. That same long-term partnership is almost always formed for the purpose of child-rearing and long-term survival, which takes a sturdy bond between partners. If society then goes ahead and finds it acceptable for people to have sex with whoever they want, then that loosens the partnership needed to raise children and survive long-term.

Of course polyamory is becoming more normalized, and if that's your thing that's your thing, but most of the time forming relationships with someone other than your partner is very likely to dissolve the original partnership.

You've hit on a critical point. Any kind of a sexual relationship depends upon finding a willing sexual partner. Many people on this forum will testify how difficult it can be to find one partner, much less, multiple partners.

A relationship can be seen as a valuable thing, sometimes so valuable, one will endure a less than satisfying relationship to maintain the appearance of one. While sex maybe the cement which bonds two people in a relationship for the amount of time to create a stronger bond base on the mutual benefit and interdependence, it's not really sufficient by itself.

A relationship in which sex is not exclusive, is started on a very weak foundation, at least statistically.

 

[Tigers!]

A relationship can be seen as a valuable thing, sometimes so valuable, one will endure a less than satisfying relationship to maintain the appearance of one. While sex maybe the cement which bonds two people in a relationship for the amount of time to create a stronger bond base on the mutual benefit and interdependence, it's not really sufficient by itself.

My 20th wedding anniversary is on 2/12 and there have been highs and lows. Somtimes the sex is greater than other times and sometimes it feels like a chore or duty. Yet sex for my wife and my self has been the result of our relationship, not the cause.
The minister who married us described marriage as somewhat analogous to a cake with icing on it. The relationship is the cake and the sex is the icing. Don't confuse the two.

 

[LordKiran]

My question was more about norms. Is this something kept quiet about where you're from?

I don't know about Australia (where DBT is) but in the US, our pop culture loves stories of infidelity and especially revenge on cheaters if clickbait trends are any indication. The "cuckold" concept is alive and well but mostly comes from culturally and sexually stunted old white guys.

Don't forget sexually frustrated 20-something beta males who overcompensate for their own insecurities.

 

[James Brown]

At least part of the shame in cuckoldry comes because of one's peers. As in, "You weren't man enough to keep your wife sexually satisfied, so she had to go run into the arms of another man, you pussy."

 

[fromderinside]

Seems to me that it really comes down to partners and perceived consequences. If I 'cheat' will the one to whom I'm committed break up or just grind on us. Neither is good, nor is the idea of feeling guilt from a physical emotional act. All the above seem to be at the base of the cultural responses to cuckolding and infidelity.

None of these are rational things, rather they are emotional, should be emotional, and, as such should have emotional consequences. The adage "if she/he doesn't know it should be left to the guilty one to deal with it" is the appropriate response since only one person's emotions need be contained.

Rationality has little place in sexual matters.

 

[DBT]

At least part of the shame in cuckoldry comes because of one's peers. As in, "You weren't man enough to keep your wife sexually satisfied, so she had to go run into the arms of another man, you pussy."

Which comes down to Ego, self interest and perceived social/sexual pecking order.

 

[James Brown]

At least part of the shame in cuckoldry comes because of one's peers. As in, "You weren't man enough to keep your wife sexually satisfied, so she had to go run into the arms of another man, you pussy."

Which comes down to Ego, self interest and perceived social/sexual pecking order.

Sure. Plus few men want to unknowingly raise someone's else's offspring.

 

[Under the Rose]

As a woman, I would not be interested in being in an open relationship firstly for the reason of sexual health and secondly because of emotional and fiscal entanglements that could be destabilizing to long term goals and present living arrangements.

The Yukon is fairly accepting of changing status of relationships and we have a significant percentage of gays, lesbians etc and even a few swingers who advertise through various media. While the demographic is fairly tolerant of change and diversity, to cheat or break trust is still frowned upon possibly because of religious upbringing and the largely Christian value system that still predominates.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Which comes down to Ego, self interest and perceived social/sexual pecking order.

Sure. Plus few men want to unknowingly raise someone's else's offspring.

There are studies that show that the most sexually repressive and uptight societies the more common this is. There are issues with the correlation. Sexual repression could also be linked to poverty (or rather income inequality), which correlates to ... yada yada yada. They've done mitochondrial DNA studies and we can quite accurately infer when these people were born. In Western Europe in the period 1860 - 1890 about 1/10 people had another father than who they thought. This is the peak of human infidelity anywhere.