Shaming doesn’t work. But what DOES?

[Rhea]

Saw a meme for a beach sign:

”If you LEAVE trash
You ARE trash”


And I thought, “gaahh. I need that on my road. People seem to think a dirt road is a great place to dump their trash, and their sofas and mattresses.”
But then of course, came the thought, “yeah shaming doesn’t work.”


So - what DOES work? How would you address trash dumpers and litterers?”

 

[Toni]

Saw a meme for a beach sign:

”If you LEAVE trash
You ARE trash”


And I thought, “gaahh. I need that on my road. People seem to think a dirt road is a great place to dump their trash, and their sofas and mattresses.”
But then of course, came the thought, “yeah shaming doesn’t work.”


So - what DOES work? How would you address trash dumpers and litterers?”

Have a place where they can dump trash for free or extremely cheap. I used to live in a place where, twice a year, they would haul anything you put out on the curb and would collect fridges anytime you said you had a fridge to go to the curb. Most towns are not like that but it was really nice and convenient.

Part of the town (not where I lived) was really wealthy: the kind of people who would put out their television that was 2-3 years old, working fine but not the latest model. Or they'd redecorate. So, a lot of people would cruise these neighborhoods ahead of the trucks picking up. My husband refused to let me do it, which is really a shame. They tossed some good stuff.

Where I live, people are responsible for contracting with garbage haulers and also for disposing of their own yard waste (possibly not an issue where you live out in the country but in town? Yep.). Garbage haulers will not take your bags of leaves or other yard waste but there are two sites in town where one can take your yard waste: One is run by the city (or county? Don't remember) and the other is a 'farm' where one may dispose of yard waste (no animal waste) for a free will donation. We use them.

Try to get community groups or even local businesses to clean a highway/road and they have a group of volunteers who go out and bag trash (obviously not good for mattresses and appliances). Post a sign: This highway maintained by Guys Heating and Cooling (free sign, free advertising). Make it a community pride sort of thing. Or even try to make it a competition between groups (bowling teams, softball teams, etc) so that it's a source of pride.

Encourage local photographers to take beauty shots of the lovely fields and woods all over to generate some pride.

And install cameras and impose fines for those who won't get with the program.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Nothing. Nothing will change their behavior. These are the same people who treat people in the service industry like shit. It is a feeling of empowerment that they can do as they please. That there are others who will clean up after them. I’ve seen it in Yosemite National Park at the end of the summer season, the conditions along the roadside, deplorable.
Perhaps one day there will be medical procedures or pharmaceuticals that will make them fit for proper society but not this day.

 

[Rhea]

Have a place where they can dump trash for free or extremely cheap.

What sounds like “extremely cheap” to you? I’m curious.

There are two different kinds of problems on my road.

One is litterers. The shame signs are appealing for this group, because it’s not about free or cheap disposal. These are the people who chuck fast food waste and beer bottles out the window. It sucks, they suck, and all they’d have to do is take it home and put it in the trash, or have a trash bag in their car and dispose at the filling station when they get gas. But they don’t. I suspect with these folks that half the time it’s about disposing of evidence, so their spouse doesn’t know they stopped at burger king or the liquor store on the way home. Their litter sucks. But of course it is said that shaming never works. But what WOULD work for this group?

The other is dumpers. These are people who know that it’s only $10 to dump a mattress or sofa at the transfer station, but instead of that they6 come up my road and dump it in the ditch or the creek, or just set it on the side of the road. For this group I want a sign that says, “You can dump it at the transfer station for $10, or, if you dump it here you will be fined $100 because we’re taking pictures of your license plate. Do the math. Do the right thing.” ANd then the neighbors would have to set up our wildlife cams on the road and take pictures.


I feel like the transfer station is extremely reasonable. $3 for a 55-gal garbage bin plus $10 for sofas or mattresses. Tire amnesty day twice a year and annual household hazardous waste. It’s not hard. And still the litterers litter and the dumpers dump.

 

[bilby]

There are a lot more people who are prepared to add their trash to an already existing pile, than who are comfortable in being the first to dump their trash in a trash-free area; So the amount of dumping can be minimised by having it rapidly removed whenever it appears.

But as @Toni has already pointed out, the most effective solution is to make it free and easy to dump garbage at a properly managed site.

Fly tipping is basically free, so your official disposal process has to match that price, or people will go elsewhere.

Of course, this means that if people want to live in a place that's not strewn with rubbish, they will need to pay sufficiently high taxes to cover the entire cost of setting up and running an official facility.

 

[Rhea]

Part of the town (not where I lived) was really wealthy: the kind of people who would put out their television that was 2-3 years old, working fine but not the latest model. Or they'd redecorate. So, a lot of people would cruise these neighborhoods ahead of the trucks picking up. My husband refused to let me do it, which is really a shame. They tossed some good stuff.

Our town is not wealthy. We put stuff on the side of the road with a sign that says, “FREE” and it is usually gone in 12 hours. But not mattresses, not sofas that have gotten wet and not bags of trash. Those we take to the landfill or burn in the back yard. And so we resent the dumpers who don’t take care of their own trash.

Fly tipping is basically free, so your official disposal process has to match that price, or people will go elsewhere.

BUt the people have to drive *TO* our road to dump. So they already have it in their car.

 

[Rhea]

There are a lot more people who are prepared to add their trash to an already existing pile, than who are comfortable in being the first to dump their trash in a trash-free area; So the amount of dumping can be minimised by having it rapidly removed whenever it appears.

I didn’t think about those adding trash to a pile. I was just thinking about the pristine site dumpers. You drive to the woods, and pull over and empty your garbage into a nice country creek.

 

[bilby]

Fly tipping is basically free, so your official disposal process has to match that price, or people will go elsewhere.

BUt the people have to drive *TO* our road to dump. So they already have it in their car.

Sure. But it's free to dump at your roadside, and it costs $10 to dump at the official site. So your roadside is going to get the business.

I have to load my old mattress into the car either way; The choice is pay $10 or pay $0 (with a tiny risk of a $100 fine).

Many people will not think beyond the fact that they'd rather keep the $10.

I would imagine that in most rural areas, the cost of sufficient enforcement to make a fine into a plausible risk for offenders would be greater than the cost of simply discontinuing the dumping fees.

 

[Toni]

Part of the town (not where I lived) was really wealthy: the kind of people who would put out their television that was 2-3 years old, working fine but not the latest model. Or they'd redecorate. So, a lot of people would cruise these neighborhoods ahead of the trucks picking up. My husband refused to let me do it, which is really a shame. They tossed some good stuff.

Our town is not wealthy. We put stuff on the side of the road with a sign that says, “FREE” and it is usually gone in 12 hours. But not mattresses, not sofas that have gotten wet and not bags of trash. Those we take to the landfill or burn in the back yard. And so we resent the dumpers who don’t take care of their own trash.

Fly tipping is basically free, so your official disposal process has to match that price, or people will go elsewhere.

BUt the people have to drive *TO* our road to dump. So they already have it in their car.

I absolutely get that. I live in a very working class town/small city. When we were doing renovations on our old house, we had a big dumpster in front. We put in a lot of our own 'crap' , in addition to some old house parts and some construction debris. Other people added stuff to the dumpster (without asking) and even more, lots of people drove by and.....took things out. More was claimed by dumpster divers than left by the freeloaders who tossed their crap into our dumpster. We got a new dining room table and were able to discard the old one (antique from probably the 30's, repro from an earlier time period). The old table was in very poor condition--legs falling apart. Someone on FB had said they wanted it to use for a project but they disappeared so it went to the curb with a sign that said free. That night, a neighbor called to ask if they could have it (it was marked free and I was embarrassed I had not asked them first--they are even better than I am at making things last and repairing/reusing stuff). Their daughter wanted it--she grew up with my kids and ate a lot of birthday cake and pizza at that table. We cautioned them that it was really in poor condition but they already had someone to repair/rejuvenate it. YAY!!! Something not in the dump and owned by someone who really loved it. We added the chairs as well. This is a neighbor that I traded kids' clothes, various household items, plants from our gardens, and complaints for well over 30 years.

Our town isn't rich and they are extremely cheap--extremely. It's also a college town. It is unbelieveable the amount of stuff--sometimes actually pretty good stuff--students leave behind on the curb. I picked up a dressing table and a small table with dovetailed joints for...$15, both pieces. Yes, they needed painting but....

I understand that is the custom in your area: people just go out to some abandoned looking road and dump their junk. I thought your request was an attempt to change people's behavior. In order to change behavior, you have to make it very easy, very convenient, and give them something for their efforts--in this case, a bit of pride. I'd be tempted to start contests to see who could best re-purpose junk. Also, around here, if you purchase a new mattress, the store will take away your old one.

Do you have Habitat for Humanity in your area? They usually operate a re-store where a lot of people donate (and purchase) a lot of items. I know I have done both.

 

[Bomb#20]

So - what DOES work? How would you address trash dumpers and litterers?”

Well, obviously, you send them over to sit down on that bench that says Group W ... NOW kid!!
... Group W's where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
Committing your special crime, and there's all kinds of mean nasty ugly
Looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father
Rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to you!

 

[rousseau]

I look back to when I was a bit younger, early to mid-twenties, and how I was guilty of some of this stuff. At the time it was just thoughtless, you made a mess because it was the easiest thing to do.

Some people just don't grow out of that, and I think there's a risk in believing that doing something like leaving trash is intentional behavior. This is why a lot of public policy goes the route of what Toni mentioned - you come to them, and make it easier for them to make the right decision. Because if you don't, the result is that trash gets thrown on the ground.

 

[thebeave]

Instead of charging people to dispose of bulky items at the dump, how about actually give them money instead? Say, $10 - $25 per mattress or appliance? It might even incentivize people to clean up the side of the road to make a little extra money. Sounds like a good job for local teens who are cash poor, bored, but have a truck. Me and my friends (when we were under 10 years old) used to collect pop bottles (3 cents each I think) that were tossed away and turn them in for cash at the local market so we could buy candy, toys, etc. Made money for ourselves, developed a work ethic and cleaned up the town all at the same time. Or maybe instead of paying "cash for trash", local small businesses could get involved and give discounts, raffle tickets, free movie passes, etc. for items collected.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Saw a meme for a beach sign:

”If you LEAVE trash
You ARE trash”

Oh, I love that sign!!

So - what DOES work? How would you address trash dumpers and litterers?”

How about a permanent restraining order prohibiting them from entering the sort of environment where they left the trash?

Just be sure of guilt first. I'm "guilty" of leaving dog poop bags at the side of the trail more than once. Nope--I found dog poop bags that somebody probably intended to pick up on the way back down but they set them in an inconspicuous place without checking visibility--and didn't see them on the way down. After multiples times of having noted them on the way up and then not been able to find them on the way down I've taken to repositioning such bags to be readily visible on the way back down and then retrieving them then. I've also done it with a few other pieces of trash that were big enough I didn't want to haul them any extra miles but was sure I would miss on the return given their placement. (Most trash is within the first mile and dog poop bags are usually within the first half mile.)

 

[laughing dog]

Deposit fees do work for beverage bottles and cans, car batteries and tires, so I see no reason why they would not work for mattresses as well. When you buy a mattress, there'd be a charge attached to the purchase that is refunded at any mattress store upon return.

 

[Tigers!]

On my way to work every morning I go down a road beside the freeway that has vacant industrial land (i.e. no buildings along it (about 1.5 kms long).
This morning I notice the dumpers had been busy. Passed 8 loads of rubbish people had left. There are cameras with signs warning you will be photographed. Unfortunately not a deterrent. They come at night in dark vehicles with false plates. We live in area where the nearest council tips are outside our boundary and 17 or 19kms away in other council areas so no free or resident discounts for us. Cost is ~$50/boot load.
There are some good ideas presented. But all cost money and shamming rarely seems to works.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd say sell pride in your community, but then right-wing assholes would get upset over it, saying people were getting "woke over litter", and probably throw more trash out their car windows.

 

[Gospel]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

We don't have enough police to manage random crime, forget deal with littering. To be fair, I don't think we want a police state.

You can't make people give a damn. They didn't care about a virus that killed 1 million Americans! They don't care about the changing climate.

OH! I got it! I got it! Get trendy transgenders to start promoting littering.

 

[Gospel]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

We don't have enough police to manage random crime, forget deal with littering. To be fair, I don't think we want a police state.

You can't make people give a damn. They didn't care about a virus that killed 1 million Americans! They don't care about the changing climate.

OH! I got it! I got it! Get trendy transgenders to start promoting littering.

The state doesn't necessarily require the police to handle the actual cleaning tasks. There are existing contractors responsible for such services who could potentially offer temporary employment to individuals for cleanup work. It would be beneficial if the state and these contractors could collaborate and work together towards this solution.

Edit: Said contractors would also assure the cleaning is done both efficiently and safely with proper training & equipment.

 

[RVonse]

Saw a meme for a beach sign:

”If you LEAVE trash
You ARE trash”


And I thought, “gaahh. I need that on my road. People seem to think a dirt road is a great place to dump their trash, and their sofas and mattresses.”
But then of course, came the thought, “yeah shaming doesn’t work.”


So - what DOES work? How would you address trash dumpers and litterers?”

Shaming actually did work, because believe or not litter used to be even more of a problem. Back in the 1970's people used to toss crap out of their window much more frequently than they do now. They actually had tv commercials against littering back then..... slowly but surely anti littering campaigns worked, just like smoking has now become out of style. I think it is very good we have much less of both today in the US.

After seeing much of world, I also believe littering is something part of culture as well. China and Singapore are as clean as hospitals, yet Cairo Egypt is about as bad as it gets. I have seen streams in Cairo with so much litter in them it looks like you could cross them without getting your feet wet. Its beyond me how people could want to live in those kind of conditions but it does not seem to bother them. A bad case of litter makes even an expensive neighborhood look like a homeless encampment.