Shaming doesn’t work. But what DOES?

[RVonse]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

The fine wouldn't even matter compared to them spending their time fixing their mess.

 

[Gospel]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

The fine wouldn't even matter compared to them spending their time fixing their mess.

The fines currently help fund contracts with contractors that perform the cleanups. May as well have the contractor use some free labor in the process. It's a win win.

 

[Rhea]

Shaming actually did work, because believe or not litter used to be even more of a problem. Back in the 1970's people used to toss crap out of their window much more frequently than they do now. They actually had tv commercials against littering back then..... slowly but surely anti littering campaigns worked, just like smoking has now become out of style.

That’s true and I remember those commercials.

I have been thinking for a while about putting up some Burma Shave style signs on the road about it. Maybe using humor and as Jimmy says, “pride in community” as the theme would make a difference.

I'd say sell pride in your community, but then right-wing assholes would get upset over it, saying people were getting "woke over litter", and probably throw more trash out their car windows.

Part of my hesitation about the original shaming sign is indeed that it would provoke people to “I’ll show them!” Behavior. But keeping it positive should reduce that a bit.

I read an article a long time ago about someone training crows to pick up the trash and dump it where the car parks (local litterers). It would be a hoot to have your Chik-fila bag show up in your own driveway. haha!

 

[bilby]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

We don't have enough police to manage random crime, forget deal with littering. To be fair, I don't think we want a police state.

You can't make people give a damn. They didn't care about a virus that killed 1 million Americans! They don't care about the changing climate.

OH! I got it! I got it! Get trendy transgenders to start promoting littering.

The state doesn't necessarily require the police to handle the actual cleaning tasks. There are existing contractors responsible for such services who could potentially offer temporary employment to individuals for cleanup work. It would be beneficial if the state and these contractors could collaborate and work together towards this solution.

Edit: Said contractors would also assure the cleaning is done both efficiently and safely with proper training & equipment.

Yeah, moving your country away from slavery is likely best accomplished by privatisation of state requirements for forced labour.

It's worked so well so far, why not extend it from possession of a frankly insignificant amount of a fairly inoffensive recreational drug, to other trivial crimes, like littering.

Nothing could possibly go wrong...

 

[Gospel]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

We don't have enough police to manage random crime, forget deal with littering. To be fair, I don't think we want a police state.

You can't make people give a damn. They didn't care about a virus that killed 1 million Americans! They don't care about the changing climate.

OH! I got it! I got it! Get trendy transgenders to start promoting littering.

The state doesn't necessarily require the police to handle the actual cleaning tasks. There are existing contractors responsible for such services who could potentially offer temporary employment to individuals for cleanup work. It would be beneficial if the state and these contractors could collaborate and work together towards this solution.

Edit: Said contractors would also assure the cleaning is done both efficiently and safely with proper training & equipment.

Yeah, moving your country away from slavery is likely best accomplished by privatisation of state requirements for forced labour.

It's worked so well so far, why not extend it from possession of a frankly insignificant amount of a fairly inoffensive recreational drug, to other trivial crimes, like littering.

Nothing could possibly go wrong...

I appreciate your input, however, the topic of legal slavery is a separate discussion. Let me clarify the term 'free labor' in this context, as it seems there may be some misunderstanding. What I'm referring to is the idea that the contractor wouldn't bear the cost. The individual who violated the rules would offset their littering fine by working for the state-paid contractor.

I believe it's crucial to point out that I am strongly against any form of legal slavery through the prison system. Your suggestion otherwise was quite a misjudgment, I must say to put it kindly.

 

[bilby]

Anyone caught littering should not only be fined but also made to clean up a half mile radius in an area designated by the state. Not only will this encourage individuals to stop & discourage others from littering it will help clean up some trash.

We don't have enough police to manage random crime, forget deal with littering. To be fair, I don't think we want a police state.

You can't make people give a damn. They didn't care about a virus that killed 1 million Americans! They don't care about the changing climate.

OH! I got it! I got it! Get trendy transgenders to start promoting littering.

The state doesn't necessarily require the police to handle the actual cleaning tasks. There are existing contractors responsible for such services who could potentially offer temporary employment to individuals for cleanup work. It would be beneficial if the state and these contractors could collaborate and work together towards this solution.

Edit: Said contractors would also assure the cleaning is done both efficiently and safely with proper training & equipment.

Yeah, moving your country away from slavery is likely best accomplished by privatisation of state requirements for forced labour.

It's worked so well so far, why not extend it from possession of a frankly insignificant amount of a fairly inoffensive recreational drug, to other trivial crimes, like littering.

Nothing could possibly go wrong...

I appreciate your input, however, the topic of legal slavery is a separate discussion. Let me clarify the term 'free labor' in this context, as it seems there may be some misunderstanding. What I'm referring to is the idea that the contractor wouldn't bear the cost. The individual who violated the rules would offset their littering fine by working for the state-paid contractor.

I believe it's crucial to point out that I am strongly against any form of legal slavery through the prison system. Your suggestion otherwise was quite a misjudgment, I must say to put it kindly.

I'm aware of your position, and selected my comments carefully.

Your idea might hypothetically not fall under a narrow definition of legal slavery, perhaps because the unpaid and involuntary work would be done by people who are allowed to return to their own homes rather than a prison cell between shifts; But do you really believe that, if someone is required to work to pay off a fine for littering, this requirement would not be abused?

Serious felonies are typically subject to complex and in depth investigations and trials, to reduce the risk of false convictions of the innocent.

Trivia such as littering is typically dealt with in a much more cavalier way, with mere accusation often sufficient to secure a conviction.

Your proposal might work in New York, but how long would it be before half the black population of Alabama would be picking up trash in the hot sun, having been accused by two "reliable witnesses" of dropping a chewing gum wrapper on the sidewalk?

The potential for abuse in your idea is massive, and as an advocate against legal slavery through the judicial system, recognising that potential should be right in your wheelhouse.

I was frankly astonished to see you, of all people, suggest such a dangerous solution.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Maybe like they do things in Malaysia. Public caning.

 

[Gospel]

I'm aware of your position, and selected my comments carefully.

It seems you were aware of the context, yet chose to persist with your stance, which is rather perplexing. The main discussion here is about proposing viable ideas to prevent littering, given that public shaming hasn't been particularly effective. With that in mind, disregarding your assumptions about me and the exploitation of laws, do you think my suggestion could prove more impactful than shaming?

I would like to highlight that your input is valuable to me. To clarify, I not only fully comprehend your viewpoints, but I also acknowledge the existence of abuse. I'm well aware of it because it's a reality I face daily.

 

[bilby]

The main discussion here is about proposing viable ideas to prevent littering, given that public shaming hasn't been particularly effective. With that in mind, disregarding your assumptions about me and the exploitation of laws, do you think my suggestion could prove more impactful than shaming?

I'm convinced that it fails the first test of a viable idea - it's fundamentally unsafe.

As a result, it should ideally never be proposed; And once proposed it should be shouted down as the threat that it so clearly is.

The question of whether or not it would work is one that we cannot consider, unless we can be confident that it cannot be subverted to evil ends; If it can work (and it likely can), that makes it all the more dangerous.

 

[Rhea]

The problem with the proposals of making fines higher and offenders clean up, is the problem of seeing them do it. If you don’t know who did it, you can’t decide who to fine/force. Which makes Bilby’s concern very real.

I think for the Litterers Group, it might just end up that shaming is the only thing that has a chance of working. You can’t make a cheaper and easier solution than chucking your fast food bag out the window. I think Rousseau’s comment that this is a matter of careless disregard may be the strongest predictor - and so the shaming signs might be what works best on them. To forcibly remove their carelessness through a shame campaign.

For the Dumpers Group, I kind of like the idea of offering a reward or return deposit for certain items like furniture, appliances and mattresses. Making it “cheaper” to take it to the dump. I mean, it’s already free to take appliances, but mybe an incentive to take it there.


By coincidence, we had a town meeting yesterday and a new resident was there and asked the question, “I’m impressed by how much cleaner the roads are here than where I moved from. Who picks up the litter?” And 25 heads in the room turned to look at her with a startled, “where y’all from?” and replied, “you pick up in front of your own house. And if you have a mile of frontage, then you have a 1-mile job.”

 

[Tigers!]

OH! I got it! I got it! Get trendy transgenders to start promoting littering.

That idea worked for Budweiser didn't it?

 

[Tigers!]

Serious felonies are typically subject to complex and in depth investigations and trials, to reduce the risk of false convictions of the innocent.

Trivia such as littering is typically dealt with in a much more cavalier way, with mere accusation often sufficient to secure a conviction.

Littering is not trivial. It can quickly escalate from being an eyesore to a health hazard, traffic hazard etc.

 

[bilby]

Serious felonies are typically subject to complex and in depth investigations and trials, to reduce the risk of false convictions of the innocent.

Trivia such as littering is typically dealt with in a much more cavalier way, with mere accusation often sufficient to secure a conviction.

Littering is not trivial. It can quickly escalate from being an eyesore to a health hazard, traffic hazard etc.

It's treated as trivial by both police and courts.

Investigations are rare, and cursory; Fines are small, and other punishments both unusual and generally small.

 

[thebeave]

Maybe its time to bring Pretendian Iron Eyes Cody back to the airwaves. If his tears don't put you on the straight and narrow, you're just a hopeless, cold hearted beast of a litterbug!

 

[Gospel]

y coincidence, we had a town meeting yesterday and a new resident was there and asked the question, “I’m impressed by how much cleaner the roads are here than where I moved from. Who picks up the litter?” And 25 heads in the room turned to look at her with a startled, “where y’all from?” and replied, “you pick up in front of your own house. And if you have a mile of frontage, then you have a 1-mile job.”

Indeed, every Sunday morning, I take it upon myself to collect litter from my dead-end street. Previously, I would cover the entire adjacent corridor which was 2 miles of road using my Coleman mini bike, but this practice came to a halt when an officer cautioned me about the bike's lack of street legality. I sold both bikes and discontinued my clean-up along the corridor.

 

[BH]

I think some people litter just to be spiteful

 

[Gospel]

The problem with the proposals of making fines higher and offenders clean up, is the problem of seeing them do it. If you don’t know who did it, you can’t decide who to fine/force. Which makes Bilby’s concern very real.

My proposal emphasized utilizing contractors who would actively oversee the cleanup efforts while also offering appropriate training and equipment. Bilby's concerns, though valid due to the unfortunate reality of racism in the world, renders my suggestion less feasible. I notice a tendency to scrutinize my proposal in a context of advocating for slavery, rather than evaluating it on its own merits. This assumption, I must say, is both unfounded and distasteful.

 

[Gospel]

Moreover, Florida has already established litter cleanup as a potential component of the penalty for littering, a practice I'm confident is mirrored in other states.

Section 6a

Any person who dumps litter in violation of subsection (4) in an amount not exceeding 15 pounds in weight or 27 cubic feet in volume and not for commercial purposes commits a noncriminal infraction, punishable by a civil penalty of $150, from which $50 shall be deposited into the Solid Waste Management Trust Fund to be used for the solid waste management grant program pursuant to s. 403.7095. In addition, the court may require the violator to pick up litter or perform other labor commensurate with the offense committed.

I proposed a scheme where offenders earn a wage to offset their fines, while learning a vital lesson. This plan necessitates the collaboration of contractors already engaged with the state, which could lighten the enforcement load for the state and potentially boost efforts to combat littering, without placing additional strain on law enforcement or county officials. As far as I can tell, Florida law doesn't clearly provide for fine reduction or payment through community service—though this may indeed be the case, it's not overtly stated in the statute. Of course, I could have overlooked it.

Judging by the prevalence of litter throughout the City of Orlando & surrounding communities, it's clear that current enforcement measures could be more effective.

But of course, here I am, apparently championing the cause of abuse and slave labor. How could I have not seen it sooner?

 

[Politesse]

I'd say sell pride in your community, but then right-wing assholes would get upset over it, saying people were getting "woke over litter", and probably throw more trash out their car windows.

Conservatives Are Purposely Making Their Cars Spew Black Smoke To Protest Obama And Environmentalists​

"Last month, Vocativ noted many coal rollers focus their fumes on 'nature nuffies,' or people who drive hybrids, and 'rice burners,' or Japanese-made cars.

'The feeling around here is that everyone who drives a small car is a liberal,' a roller named Ryan told Vocativ. 'I rolled coal on a Prius once just because they were tailing me.'"

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Those are quite possibly the dumbest people around. That isn't particularly good for their truck either. I like to refer to them as cute little trucks pretending to be choo choos.