So Bibi Wants To Begin The "Final Solution."

[repoman]

A good analogy is First Nations culture here in North America. They didn’t technically have ownership of the land, but they were here subsisting from the land. You could argue I guess they owned it in a sense....

Colonialism was just how the Brits went about their business. The Zionists were Jews, but they were also Brits, just doing what Brits did - walk into an occupied place and call it theirs. There were opportunities for peaceful solutions, but there has always been the politics of fear involved.

Fortunately for the Brits in NA, smallpox wiped out a massive chunk of the native population, or else we’d be fighting over 2 state solutions.

Jews aren’t monolithic, the diaspora has produced many political divides among us.

I am anti-Zionist, I am also an ethnic Jew. I am only one opinion. In my view the right wing in Israel is going to destroy Israel’s future.

Sounds about right.

Loren should just say he does not care, sort of how I don't care very much about Native Americans. I will validate that position.

 

[Arctish]

That seems like a totally unbiased source.

The question is whether it's claims are true. Got any rebuttal?

Well, let's look at them one at a time.

1. Jews are called Jews because we come from Judea. We are indigenous to the Middle East and there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel for thousands of years.

AFAIK both claims are correct.

2. Palestine was the name given by the Romans following the capture, destruction and expulsion of Judea. Jews ended up in Europe the same way African Americans ended up in the United States - white people invaded our land and uprooted us.

The name Palestine is derived from the name Philistia, which predates the Roman version. The first recorded use of that term for the people of that region is inscribed on an Egyptian temple that was built around 1190 BCE.

Also, Jews began emigrating to Europe and establishing Jewish communities in the Roman Empire before the power struggles between Jews and Romans became wars and uprisings, although tbf a lot of Jews were forced into slavery when their rebellions failed.

3. There has never been an independent Palestinian state. A self-identifiable, self-ruling and recognized Palestinian entity never existed until the Arab Palestinian national movement in the 20th century.

This seems like a slippery use of terms.

Every tribe in the region was self-identifiable and self-ruling, with widely recognized claims over grazing land, water resources, etc., and formed alliances with other tribes to extend their control over territory. This includes the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Whether these tribal governments and alliances constituted a 'recognized Palestinian entity' is a matter of semantics.

<more later>

<it's now later>

Before going over the rest of the list, I'd like to add a bit to my comments on the first bullet point:

AFAIK both claims are correct if one is referring to the Mizrahi Jews. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations are of mixed ancestry and only partly descended from the indigenous population of the Middle East. If one is referring to converts to the Jewish faith, those folks might be members of any indigenous population anywhere.

4. The borders of modern-day Arab countries were created by Europeans. Before Britain and France carved up the Middle East following World War I, the region was part of the Ottoman Empire and the territory divided into urban-centered municipalities called sanjaks. The sanjaks of Jerusalem, Nablus, Acre and Beirut are part of present-day Israel.

True but incomplete. Europeans drew the borders, and did so with their own interests in mind. This is especially true of Israel's borders.

The Sanjak of Jerusalem, together with the Sanjak of Nablus and Sanjak of Akka (Acre), formed the region that was commonly referred to as "Southern Syria" or "Palestine". It had a special administrative status, with significant autonomy and self-rule for each religious community under the Millet system.

5. Zionism was a movement launched in the 19th century for the re-establishment, development and protection of a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Returning to Israel has been a central, driving force of the Jewish people for millennia. As is said during every Passover Seder: "Next year in Jerusalem."

This seems to be an exaggeration. While it's true that "Next year in Jerusalem" was/is an expression of faith in a brighter, God ordained future when the Messiah comes, Zionism isn't a "central, driving force" for the majority of Jews. Less than half of the world's Jews live in Israel. Most of others live in wealthy Western nations and could easily emigrate to Israel if they were at all interested. They're not.

6. Jews did not steal land from Arabs when they returned enmasse to Israel in the late 19th and early 20th century. They legally purchased land from absentee landowners living in Arab capitals to build kibbutzim and communities. Local Arab tenants were often displaced following the purchase so Jews could be hired to work the land.

The wording here is a bit tricky. It refers to Jews who emigrated to Israel "in the late 19th and early 20th century". That would be before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Those immigrants did purchase land from local landowners and established communities recognized under Ottoman law.

But the Zionists who arrived in increasing numbers during the British Mandate years weren't always so law abiding, especially at the end of WWII. They established outposts wherever it was useful in the furtherance of their goal of creating a Jewish State, and for the most part didn't bother to get a legal deed or pay the owners. By that point the Palestinians were no longer selling land to people who openly vowed to displace them, which was used by Zionists as justification for taking it by force. In fact, the Jewish Agency plan for the creation of Israel was openly calling for seizing (stealing) valuable farmland, infrastructure, and strategic locations from Palestinian owners as early as the mid 1930s.

So while the claim in that bullet list is correct, it's not an accurate depiction of how most of the land that became Israel became Jewish property.

<more later>

 

[Arctish]

7. The Arabs of Palestine were offered their own state, side-by-side with Israel in 1947, when Britain relinquished their Mandate to the United Nations. They, along with the surrounding Arab countries, rejected the partition recommendation (UN Resolution 181), which resulted in civil war and an invasion of five Arab armies to destroy the Jewish community of Israel.

Basically correct.

The statements ignore the reasons why the locals refused the proposal to divide the land. And the resulting violence wasn't really a civil war. On the Zionist side, 2/3 of the civilians and most of the fighters were recent immigrants. But the claim is generally true: a proposal for the creation of two states was made and the Palestinians and neighboring Arabs rejected it.

8. Nearly 80% of what was meant to be an Arab Palestinian state was stolen by Jordan (Judea & Samaria/West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) during the 1948 War of Independence. During the next two decades under their control, they never gave the Palestinians independence. During the Six Day War of 1967, Israel gained that territory in a defensive war when Arab armies massed troops along her borders and once again threatened destruction.

Incorrect.

Jordan didn't steal Palestine. The Palestinians were given the opportunity to vote on the proposed annexation of the West Bank by Jordan, which they did in December of 1948 at the Jericho Conference. The Palestinians did not give up their claim to all of Palestine but were content with the offer to become Jordanian citizens.

Also, Israel did not 'gain' that territory. Israel invaded it during the Six-Day War, and has held it under military Occupation ever since.

9. Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they claimed to be fighting for in 2000, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer them a state. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer. A similar offer was made in 2008 with the same result.

Shenanigans.

The only Israeli leader who offered land to the Palestinians was assassinated by a Zionist, and Bibi Netanyahu and his hard right supporters approved of that outcome.

If you expect anyone to believe that 97% bullshit you're going to have to show us the text of the alleged offer, and the corresponding map.

10. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005, removing all soldiers and civilians, giving full control to the Palestinians in hopes of peace. The terrorist organization Hamas now controls Gaza and has launched over tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, resulting in multiple wars in the 21st century.

Basically true but it ignores the Separation Barrier. The Israelis pulled their people out of the prison yard before locking the gates, an act of aggression the Gazans have protested ever since, sometimes violently.

 

[repoman]

If one were to take the same map of settlements and guarded roadways to them and keep them the same in a topological sense keeping the nodes the same but make the country look different and call it a convincing fictional name, EVERYONE would see what is going on. Maybe they are hypnotizing the world

They are making the right call, but I am a racist and a fascist, so what do I know.

 

[angelo]

Again, you've asserted that if the Palestinian land has already been stolen, it was always Israeli land anyway...no harm, no foul.

Is that basic history, too?

To steal land requires it be stolen from someone--and there's never been a Palestinian nation to steal it from. The only claim to the land is Israeli, it's impossible for them to steal it. If the Palestinians want to assert a claim to the land the need a nation--and they aren't interested in doing that because they don't want one--they want to conquer Israel.

So if a Palestinian family owned a farm, they're not really Palestinian, the land has always been part of Israel, and if Israel wants it they just confiscate it and since the Palestinians who have been living on it for generations aren't actually real people with rights, Israel is right to do so.

Those people who lived on the land are not "someone" at all in your view, because they're not Israeli.

Again, you don't think Palestinians are human. That's the start of "Final Solution" thinking. De-humanizing the "other" so it's okay to relocate them or wipe them out.

The point is that they were NOT Palestinian as a Palestinian people as described today didn't exist. They were simply Arabs.

 

[angelo]

7. The Arabs of Palestine were offered their own state, side-by-side with Israel in 1947, when Britain relinquished their Mandate to the United Nations. They, along with the surrounding Arab countries, rejected the partition recommendation (UN Resolution 181), which resulted in civil war and an invasion of five Arab armies to destroy the Jewish community of Israel.

Basically correct.

The statements ignore the reasons why the locals refused the proposal to divide the land. And the resulting violence wasn't really a civil war. On the Zionist side, 2/3 of the civilians and most of the fighters were recent immigrants. But the claim is generally true: a proposal for the creation of two states was made and the Palestinians and neighboring Arabs rejected it.

8. Nearly 80% of what was meant to be an Arab Palestinian state was stolen by Jordan (Judea & Samaria/West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) during the 1948 War of Independence. During the next two decades under their control, they never gave the Palestinians independence. During the Six Day War of 1967, Israel gained that territory in a defensive war when Arab armies massed troops along her borders and once again threatened destruction.

Incorrect.

Jordan didn't steal Palestine. The Palestinians were given the opportunity to vote on the proposed annexation of the West Bank by Jordan, which they did in December of 1948 at the Jericho Conference. The Palestinians did not give up their claim to all of Palestine but were content with the offer to become Jordanian citizens.

Also, Israel did not 'gain' that territory. Israel invaded it during the Six-Day War, and has held it under military Occupation ever since.

9. Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they claimed to be fighting for in 2000, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer them a state. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer. A similar offer was made in 2008 with the same result.

Shenanigans.

The only Israeli leader who offered land to the Palestinians was assassinated by a Zionist, and Bibi Netanyahu and his hard right supporters approved of that outcome.

If you expect anyone to believe that 97% bullshit you're going to have to show us the text of the alleged offer, and the corresponding map.

10. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005, removing all soldiers and civilians, giving full control to the Palestinians in hopes of peace. The terrorist organization Hamas now controls Gaza and has launched over tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, resulting in multiple wars in the 21st century.

Basically true but it ignores the Separation Barrier. The Israelis pulled their people out of the prison yard before locking the gates, an act of aggression the Gazans have protested ever since, sometimes violently.

Your anti-semitism is well known here and elsewhere. Putting your own [Artish's] pro Palestinian slant on those 10 facts does not make it so. I presume you are aware that there are Arab members of Knesset and that Israeli Arabs are free to participate, as they have done so in the most recent elections of the Knesset. Furthermore, Arabs living in Israel enjoy much more freedom and better standard of living than most other Arabs living in the surrounding Arab countries of the Middle East.

I'm sure you approve of this.................................................https://worldisraelnews.com/ocasio-...l+Offered+Abbas+Over+100_+of+Judea,+Samaria;+

 

[lpetrich]

(Responding to Arctish)

Your anti-semitism is well known here and elsewhere. ...

angelo, don't you have any better arguments?

 

[Arctish]

7. The Arabs of Palestine were offered their own state, side-by-side with Israel in 1947, when Britain relinquished their Mandate to the United Nations. They, along with the surrounding Arab countries, rejected the partition recommendation (UN Resolution 181), which resulted in civil war and an invasion of five Arab armies to destroy the Jewish community of Israel.

Basically correct.

The statements ignore the reasons why the locals refused the proposal to divide the land. And the resulting violence wasn't really a civil war. On the Zionist side, 2/3 of the civilians and most of the fighters were recent immigrants. But the claim is generally true: a proposal for the creation of two states was made and the Palestinians and neighboring Arabs rejected it.

8. Nearly 80% of what was meant to be an Arab Palestinian state was stolen by Jordan (Judea & Samaria/West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) during the 1948 War of Independence. During the next two decades under their control, they never gave the Palestinians independence. During the Six Day War of 1967, Israel gained that territory in a defensive war when Arab armies massed troops along her borders and once again threatened destruction.

Incorrect.

Jordan didn't steal Palestine. The Palestinians were given the opportunity to vote on the proposed annexation of the West Bank by Jordan, which they did in December of 1948 at the Jericho Conference. The Palestinians did not give up their claim to all of Palestine but were content with the offer to become Jordanian citizens.

Also, Israel did not 'gain' that territory. Israel invaded it during the Six-Day War, and has held it under military Occupation ever since.

9. Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they claimed to be fighting for in 2000, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer them a state. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer. A similar offer was made in 2008 with the same result.

Shenanigans.

The only Israeli leader who offered land to the Palestinians was assassinated by a Zionist, and Bibi Netanyahu and his hard right supporters approved of that outcome.

If you expect anyone to believe that 97% bullshit you're going to have to show us the text of the alleged offer, and the corresponding map.

10. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005, removing all soldiers and civilians, giving full control to the Palestinians in hopes of peace. The terrorist organization Hamas now controls Gaza and has launched over tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, resulting in multiple wars in the 21st century.

Basically true but it ignores the Separation Barrier. The Israelis pulled their people out of the prison yard before locking the gates, an act of aggression the Gazans have protested ever since, sometimes violently.

Your anti-semitismmilitant zionism is well known here and elsewhere. Putting your own [Artish's] pro Palestinian slant on those 10 facts does not make it so. I presume you are aware that there are Arab members of Knesset and that Israeli Arabs are free to participate, as they have done so in the most recent elections of the Knesset. Furthermore, Arabs living in Israel enjoy much more freedom and better standard of living than most other Arabs living in the surrounding Arab countries of the Middle East.

I'm sure you approve of this.................................................https://worldisraelnews.com/ocasio-...l+Offered+Abbas+Over+100_+of+Judea,+Samaria;+

FYP

Anyway, the question is whether my corrections and claims are true. Got any rebuttal? If so, please go over the list point by point like I did so we can discuss the facts.

 

[marc]

(Responding to Arctish)

Your anti-semitism is well known here and elsewhere. ...

angelo, don't you have any better arguments?

FIFY

 

[angelo]

7. The Arabs of Palestine were offered their own state, side-by-side with Israel in 1947, when Britain relinquished their Mandate to the United Nations. They, along with the surrounding Arab countries, rejected the partition recommendation (UN Resolution 181), which resulted in civil war and an invasion of five Arab armies to destroy the Jewish community of Israel.

Basically correct.

The statements ignore the reasons why the locals refused the proposal to divide the land. And the resulting violence wasn't really a civil war. On the Zionist side, 2/3 of the civilians and most of the fighters were recent immigrants. But the claim is generally true: a proposal for the creation of two states was made and the Palestinians and neighboring Arabs rejected it.

8. Nearly 80% of what was meant to be an Arab Palestinian state was stolen by Jordan (Judea & Samaria/West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) during the 1948 War of Independence. During the next two decades under their control, they never gave the Palestinians independence. During the Six Day War of 1967, Israel gained that territory in a defensive war when Arab armies massed troops along her borders and once again threatened destruction.

Incorrect.

Jordan didn't steal Palestine. The Palestinians were given the opportunity to vote on the proposed annexation of the West Bank by Jordan, which they did in December of 1948 at the Jericho Conference. The Palestinians did not give up their claim to all of Palestine but were content with the offer to become Jordanian citizens.

Also, Israel did not 'gain' that territory. Israel invaded it during the Six-Day War, and has held it under military Occupation ever since.

9. Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they claimed to be fighting for in 2000, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer them a state. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer. A similar offer was made in 2008 with the same result.

Shenanigans.

The only Israeli leader who offered land to the Palestinians was assassinated by a Zionist, and Bibi Netanyahu and his hard right supporters approved of that outcome.

If you expect anyone to believe that 97% bullshit you're going to have to show us the text of the alleged offer, and the corresponding map.

10. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005, removing all soldiers and civilians, giving full control to the Palestinians in hopes of peace. The terrorist organization Hamas now controls Gaza and has launched over tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, resulting in multiple wars in the 21st century.

Basically true but it ignores the Separation Barrier. The Israelis pulled their people out of the prison yard before locking the gates, an act of aggression the Gazans have protested ever since, sometimes violently.

Your anti-semitismmilitant zionism is well known here and elsewhere. Putting your own [Artish's] pro Palestinian slant on those 10 facts does not make it so. I presume you are aware that there are Arab members of Knesset and that Israeli Arabs are free to participate, as they have done so in the most recent elections of the Knesset. Furthermore, Arabs living in Israel enjoy much more freedom and better standard of living than most other Arabs living in the surrounding Arab countries of the Middle East.

I'm sure you approve of this.................................................https://worldisraelnews.com/ocasio-...l+Offered+Abbas+Over+100_+of+Judea,+Samaria;+

FYP

Anyway, the question is whether my corrections and claims are true. Got any rebuttal? If so, please go over the list point by point like I did so we can discuss the facts.

I refuse to waste my valuable time arguing with a blinkered one eyed Palestinian apologist and supporter of terrorism and a rabid anti semitists! The article and 10 facts I posted stand as stated, and your piss weak rebuttals do not hold water And are verbatim Hamas slogans.

 

[Arctish]

FYP

Anyway, the question is whether my corrections and claims are true. Got any rebuttal? If so, please go over the list point by point like I did so we can discuss the facts.

I refuse to waste my valuable time arguing with a blinkered one eyed Palestinian apologist and supporter of terrorism and a rabid anti semitists! The article and 10 facts I posted stand as stated, and your piss weak rebuttals do not hold water And are verbatim Hamas slogans.

Most of the claims on that list are mostly true. Some of them are a bit misleading. The claim about Israel offering the Palestinians 97% of the land they wanted in 2000 and again in 2008 is an exaggeration, especially in the way it's declared with such authority, which is why I called shenanigans.

The list is referring to the Camp David Talks in 2000, but the claim that the Israelis offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they wanted is incorrect. The Palestinians wanted Israel to withdraw its citizens to its side of the 1967 Green Line. They were willing to negotiate land swaps but their goal was to have the settlers back inside Israel and the IDF out of Palestinian communities. Israel's negotiating position started with Israel retaining large settlements blocs and the roads leading to them, with joint control of the aquifers in the Jordan River uplands. It offered the Palestinians something like 86% of the land that didn't currently have Israeli settlers on it, bisected and subdivided by Israeli controlled roads and checkpoints, with a promise the acreage would increase at a later date - a promise the Palestinians had ample reason to disbelieve, considering Israel's refusal to follow through with land transfers it had agreed to under the Oslo Accords, its on-going policy of building new State funded settlements in the Occupied Territories, and its record of protecting and supporting settlements that weren't even legal under Israeli law. More importantly, it didn't offer recognition of the Right of Palestinians to live in Palestine, meaning the Israelis could have reneged at any time by reasserting the Right of Return for Jews in all of Eretz Yisrael.

The 2008 offer was even more questionable. It was a pig in a poke. Abbas was pressured to accept Olmert's offer but he wasn't allowed to study the map. Anyone can claim the offer was generous, but without studying the map and considering what it represented, how can anyone know?

Anyway, no one has posted a rebuttal of my rebuttal (ad hominem insults don't count), so I guess my points stand, too.

 

[angelo]

FYP

Anyway, the question is whether my corrections and claims are true. Got any rebuttal? If so, please go over the list point by point like I did so we can discuss the facts.

I refuse to waste my valuable time arguing with a blinkered one eyed Palestinian apologist and supporter of terrorism and a rabid anti semitists! The article and 10 facts I posted stand as stated, and your piss weak rebuttals do not hold water And are verbatim Hamas slogans.

Most of the claims on that list are mostly true. Some of them are a bit misleading. The claim about Israel offering the Palestinians 97% of the land they wanted in 2000 and again in 2008 is an exaggeration, especially in the way it's declared with such authority, which is why I called shenanigans.

The list is referring to the Camp David Talks in 2000, but the claim that the Israelis offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they wanted is incorrect. The Palestinians wanted Israel to withdraw its citizens to its side of the 1967 Green Line. They were willing to negotiate land swaps but their goal was to have the settlers back inside Israel and the IDF out of Palestinian communities. Israel's negotiating position started with Israel retaining large settlements blocs and the roads leading to them, with joint control of the aquifers in the Jordan River uplands. It offered the Palestinians something like 86% of the land that didn't currently have Israeli settlers on it, bisected and subdivided by Israeli controlled roads and checkpoints, with a promise the acreage would increase at a later date - a promise the Palestinians had ample reason to disbelieve, considering Israel's refusal to follow through with land transfers it had agreed to under the Oslo Accords, its on-going policy of building new State funded settlements in the Occupied Territories, and its record of protecting and supporting settlements that weren't even legal under Israeli law. More importantly, it didn't offer recognition of the Right of Palestinians to live in Palestine, meaning the Israelis could have reneged at any time by reasserting the Right of Return for Jews in all of Eretz Yisrael.

The 2008 offer was even more questionable. It was a pig in a poke. Abbas was pressured to accept Olmert's offer but he wasn't allowed to study the map. Anyone can claim the offer was generous, but without studying the map and considering what it represented, how can anyone know?

Anyway, no one has posted a rebuttal of my rebuttal (ad hominem insults don't count), so I guess my points stand, too.

Here are some facts that you'll never see in Palestinian apologist or left leaning media.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/04/...-larger-than-west-bank-and-gaza-abbas-said-no

 

[Arctish]

Here are some facts that you'll never see in Palestinian apologist or left leaning media.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/04/...-larger-than-west-bank-and-gaza-abbas-said-no

Apparently my sources aren't Palestinian apologist or left leaning media because I've seen most of those facts before.

Olmert had already announced his resignation before he presented his map to Abbas. He wouldn't allow Abbas to make a copy in order to examine the offer in detail or show to his aides. Instead, he pressured Abbas to sign off on it immediately, and when Abbas didn't, the offer vanished completely. Don't you find that the least bit fishy?

It looks to me like Olmert was trying to pull a fast one, but I don't really know because he kept the details secret. All we really know is that Abbas wouldn't sign off on something he hadn't examined, that he didn't trust a lame duck PM to follow through on his promises, and that an Israeli PM sincerely offering the PLO more than it's fighting for is unlikely.

 

[angelo]

The fact is that nothing else but the complete destruction of the Jewish state will appease the Arabs. A Hamas charter states " From the river to the sea." It's also a fact that what Islam conquers, Islam keeps, and will never accept what it considers Arab lands in infidel hands.

That's why the insistence of right of return. Arabs would then vastly outnumber Jews and it would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state, the only democratic state in a sea of theocracies and dictatorships.

 

[repoman]

Thank you for pointing out that in a democracy "Demography is Destiny". Ethnic nationalism is the most stable nationalism.

Also, once you lose it you can't get it back.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again, you've asserted that if the Palestinian land has already been stolen, it was always Israeli land anyway...no harm, no foul.

Is that basic history, too?

To steal land requires it be stolen from someone--and there's never been a Palestinian nation to steal it from. The only claim to the land is Israeli, it's impossible for them to steal it. If the Palestinians want to assert a claim to the land the need a nation--and they aren't interested in doing that because they don't want one--they want to conquer Israel.

So if a Palestinian family owned a farm, they're not really Palestinian, the land has always been part of Israel, and if Israel wants it they just confiscate it and since the Palestinians who have been living on it for generations aren't actually real people with rights, Israel is right to do so.

Those people who lived on the land are not "someone" at all in your view, because they're not Israeli.

Again, you don't think Palestinians are human. That's the start of "Final Solution" thinking. De-humanizing the "other" so it's okay to relocate them or wipe them out.

In order to make your case you need to find said farm. The settlements were built on vacant land.

I'm sure you can find some from 1948 but that went both directions--as many Jews lost their property as Muslims. Let the Palestinians collect from the governments that seized Jewish property and things will be roughly even.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

8. Nearly 80% of what was meant to be an Arab Palestinian state was stolen by Jordan (Judea & Samaria/West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) during the 1948 War of Independence. During the next two decades under their control, they never gave the Palestinians independence. During the Six Day War of 1967, Israel gained that territory in a defensive war when Arab armies massed troops along her borders and once again threatened destruction.

Incorrect.

Jordan didn't steal Palestine. The Palestinians were given the opportunity to vote on the proposed annexation of the West Bank by Jordan, which they did in December of 1948 at the Jericho Conference. The Palestinians did not give up their claim to all of Palestine but were content with the offer to become Jordanian citizens.

The annexations made it impossible for the Palestinians to form the state that was intended. That was their purpose--ensure there wouldn't be peace. If they went along with it it was because they intended to take Israel, not because they were actually ok with losing their land.

Also, Israel did not 'gain' that territory. Israel invaded it during the Six-Day War, and has held it under military Occupation ever since.

Israel invaded it in the Six-Day war--and then Egypt and Jordan renounced their claims to it. That gave Israel sole ownership of the land. If you're right the Palestinians went along with it, too bad--they voted away their land.

9. Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they claimed to be fighting for in 2000, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer them a state. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer. A similar offer was made in 2008 with the same result.

Shenanigans.

The only Israeli leader who offered land to the Palestinians was assassinated by a Zionist, and Bibi Netanyahu and his hard right supporters approved of that outcome.

If you expect anyone to believe that 97% bullshit you're going to have to show us the text of the alleged offer, and the corresponding map.

(I do not know the whole context of this)
http://www.passia.org/maps/view/38

Note that this is a Palestinian source so you don't get to attack it's credibility. It's showing 94% + 3% as a land swap. While not exactly 97% (which could simply be due to rounding) it's certainly very close. Just because you stick your head in the sand doesn't mean the Palestinians didn't walk away from this--all along it's been clear that peace is unacceptable.

10. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005, removing all soldiers and civilians, giving full control to the Palestinians in hopes of peace. The terrorist organization Hamas now controls Gaza and has launched over tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, resulting in multiple wars in the 21st century.

Basically true but it ignores the Separation Barrier. The Israelis pulled their people out of the prison yard before locking the gates, an act of aggression the Gazans have protested ever since, sometimes violently.

History--pay attention to it. The separation barrier came later when Hamas kept attacking across the border.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

FYP

Anyway, the question is whether my corrections and claims are true. Got any rebuttal? If so, please go over the list point by point like I did so we can discuss the facts.

I refuse to waste my valuable time arguing with a blinkered one eyed Palestinian apologist and supporter of terrorism and a rabid anti semitists! The article and 10 facts I posted stand as stated, and your piss weak rebuttals do not hold water And are verbatim Hamas slogans.

Most of the claims on that list are mostly true. Some of them are a bit misleading. The claim about Israel offering the Palestinians 97% of the land they wanted in 2000 and again in 2008 is an exaggeration, especially in the way it's declared with such authority, which is why I called shenanigans.

Calling shenanigans doesn't make it so.

The list is referring to the Camp David Talks in 2000, but the claim that the Israelis offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they wanted is incorrect. The Palestinians wanted Israel to withdraw its citizens to its side of the 1967 Green Line. They were willing to negotiate land swaps but their goal was to have the settlers back inside Israel and the IDF out of Palestinian communities.

Try Taba rather than Camp David.

 

[Ford]

Israel invaded it in the Six-Day war--and then Egypt and Jordan renounced their claims to it. That gave Israel sole ownership of the land.

So if Israel takes land by force, they own it and nobody can say otherwise?

I guess we should at least be satisfied that you admit might = right.

Tell me, if they invade Gaza and kill all the Palestinians living there, that makes it rightfully part of Israel in your opinion?

And here I thought maybe "Final Solution" was a bit harsh. You support the idea. Kill 'em all, and God says the land belongs to Israel, huh?

 

[Arctish]

The annexations made it impossible for the Palestinians to form the state that was intended. That was their purpose--ensure there wouldn't be peace. If they went along with it it was because they intended to take Israel, not because they were actually ok with losing their land.

Unsupported assertion. Also, you failed to rebut my rebuttal. Jordan didn't 'steal' the land. It allowed the Palestinians to vote whether to accept or decline its offer to annex the West Bank, which is a heck of a lot more than the Israelis have done.

Israel invaded it in the Six-Day war--and then Egypt and Jordan renounced their claims to it. That gave Israel sole ownership of the land. If you're right the Palestinians went along with it, too bad--they voted away their land.

No, it didn't give Israel ownership of the land, no matter how much you want it to be true. The West Bank is under military occupation. It is not Israel and the people who live there aren't Israelis except for the ones in those settlements and the IDF forces protecting them.

9. Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of the land they claimed to be fighting for in 2000, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer them a state. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer. A similar offer was made in 2008 with the same result.

Shenanigans.

The only Israeli leader who offered land to the Palestinians was assassinated by a Zionist, and Bibi Netanyahu and his hard right supporters approved of that outcome.

If you expect anyone to believe that 97% bullshit you're going to have to show us the text of the alleged offer, and the corresponding map.

(I do not know the whole context of this)
http://www.passia.org/maps/view/38

Note that this is a Palestinian source so you don't get to attack it's credibility. It's showing 94% + 3% as a land swap. While not exactly 97% (which could simply be due to rounding) it's certainly very close. Just because you stick your head in the sand doesn't mean the Palestinians didn't walk away from this--all along it's been clear that peace is unacceptable.

You know that map couldn't be an accurate depiction of where Israel's borders would be because Israel never agreed to discuss its final borders, much less declare them. You know that that's one of the things that doomed the Oslo Accords and frustrated the Clintons when they tried to get the peace process going again. The Israelis would not discuss the final status of Israel's borders. You know that even while that map was being drafted, new settlements were being constructed and Palestinian land was being seized (stolen). And you know why Yitzhak Rabin was murdered and how his successors chose to respond.

But let's pretend for a minute that neither of us knows anything about all that. Where is the text of the offer Israel made, the one that describes the proposal that map allegedly depicts? I'd like to read what it says about those wide swathes of Israeli controlled territory running throughout the West Bank, and why the Palestinian area is divided up into all those little parcels.

10. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza in 2005, removing all soldiers and civilians, giving full control to the Palestinians in hopes of peace. The terrorist organization Hamas now controls Gaza and has launched over tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, resulting in multiple wars in the 21st century.

Basically true but it ignores the Separation Barrier. The Israelis pulled their people out of the prison yard before locking the gates, an act of aggression the Gazans have protested ever since, sometimes violently.

History--pay attention to it. The separation barrier came later when Hamas kept attacking across the border.

Take your own advice and learn the history of the Separation Barrier. Pay particular attention to when construction began and when it was concluded. I showed you the timeline at least twice before, so you really have no excuse at this point for being so ill-informed.