Syed's Mega-Thread

[Lion IRC]

Atheos' point clearly flew over your head

Also, while on the subject of Lion IRC's post about unmarked police cars and the like, what's the point? ...If anything this shows the opposite of the point that is being attempted. People will drive blissfully down the interstate at 10-15 MPH above the posted speed limit with an unmarked police car swimming amongst them but will not do so if a clearly marked police car is present. The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent. The possibility that one might be somewhere in the vicinity is not.

You said "unmarked police car" - similar to an invisible sky daddy. These unseen things do not work as any sort of a deterrent.

Hello...the unmarked cars are catching all the perpetrators who think no one is watching.

No. The unmarked cars are fishing for revenue. They aren't catching all the perps.

I didn't misrepresent his/her position - I quoted it!

Then you surely don't mind if I quote the bible:

Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

Obviously Yahweh wants everyone to practice human sacrifice.

Firstly, I don't have a son named Isaac. So He can't be talking to me.
Secondly, that quote isn't an opinion or fact claim so you aren't misrepresenting God's opinion.
Thirdly, you are quite entitled to your own personal (mistaken) belief about the implications of that verse. We can even argue about it and you can say x while I insist otherwise.

What we can't do is have Atheos saying "an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent." and then when I quote you saying that exact same thing folks come out accusing me of quote-mining.

Quote-mining would be if I posted a quote "x" and then went on to say Atheos agrees with me about "y". In this case I presume Atheos thinks "x" because that's what was said.

If Atheos DOES NOT think "x" there's a very simple remedy.

 

[funinspace]

Firstly, I don't have a son named Isaac. So He can't be talking to me.

Holy Zeus!....you mean context actually matters?

You seem to be pretty dang smart, so why don't you try slowing down, and re-read Atheos' post #40, and I'll bet you can figure out the context you accidentally let slip out of your quoting 'about him agreeing' with yah.

 

[Lion IRC]

Context???
The bible verse is a narrative text. Person "A" said "x" to person "B".
It's not an opinion piece.

You can't 'misrepresent' it or quote-mine it.
And if you (mistakenly) think it suggests everyone must kill their firstborn son you're entitled to that opinion.

It's not God saying "I think CCTV is a deterrent."

 

[abaddon]

everyone must kill their firstborn son

So then, you agree.

 

[abaddon]

Lion IRC,

Quote-mining is disregard of context. It doesn’t matter if the quoted bit and you are in agreement. What matters is if the context is accounted for. And you’re still totally ignoring the context of the post you had quoted.

The context of that post, if you want to address it honestly, is that marked cars are more a deterrent than unmarked cars so therefore God, being invisible, cannot be much of a deterrent. Especially if it’s a God that forgives wrongdoing. The police being visible or not is just an analogy to god’s visibility (ie, his total lack of it).

No one said that police are not a deterrent so if that’s what you’re arguing against then quote someone saying that police are not a deterrent. Many argued that the main motivations for being good are innate goodness and being social beings, and that is not an argument against police as a deterrent to "bad" behavior.

 

[Lion IRC]

1. I think that Atheos thinks visible law enforcement acts as a deterrent.
2. I agree that visible law enforcement DOES act as a deterrent.
3. I quote the section of Atheos' post which I think shows that we agree.

...therefore Lion IRC is obviously quote-mining to prove that Atheos thinks WHAT?

What words do you think I'm trying to put in Atheos' mouth?

Just answer that please! Tell me what views you think I'm trying to attribute to someone that they DONT actually believe.

Does this forum have rules against quote-mining or deliberate misrepresentation of another person's views? (I hope so!)
Somebody report me so the Mods can decide if I have or have not done what I'm being accused of.

Or else kindly STFU

 

[Lion IRC]

everyone must kill their firstborn son

So then, you agree.

Agree with what?

I don't think everyone must kill their firstborn.
If you read Genesis 22 you will see that Abraham didn't kill his firstborn either.
Yet somehow you have fallen for this trope that God wants us all to kill our sons.

 

[Lion IRC]

...The context of that post, if you want to address it honestly, is that marked cars are more a deterrent than unmarked cars so therefore God, being invisible, cannot be much of a deterrent.

Unmarked police cars are effectively invisible.
They act as a deterrent BECAUSE we know they can see us but we can't see them so we had better obey the law. And like unmarked police cars, God exists.

 

[bilby]

So then, you agree.

Agree with what?

I don't think everyone must kill their firstborn.
If you read Genesis 22 you will see that Abraham didn't kill his firstborn either.
Yet somehow you have fallen for this trope that God wants us all to kill our sons.

So you can only detect quote mining when it is done to you, and not when you do it to others?

Interesting.

I wish I could say 'surprising'; but we will have to settle for ... interesting.

 

[James Brown]

...The context of that post, if you want to address it honestly, is that marked cars are more a deterrent than unmarked cars so therefore God, being invisible, cannot be much of a deterrent.

Unmarked police cars are effectively invisible.
They act as a deterrent BECAUSE we know they can see us but we can't see them so we had better obey the law. And like unmarked police cars, God exists.

Are you suggesting that the reason I paid for the dollar's worth of food at the gas station was because there might have been an unmarked police car parked outside?

 

[Lion IRC]

Agree with what?

I don't think everyone must kill their firstborn.
If you read Genesis 22 you will see that Abraham didn't kill his firstborn either.
Yet somehow you have fallen for this trope that God wants us all to kill our sons.

So you can only detect quote mining when it is done to you, and not when you do it to others?

Interesting.

I wish I could say 'surprising'; but we will have to settle for ... interesting.

Nobody quote-mined me.
Abaddon didn't accuse me of thinking that everyone must kill their firstborn.
And it wouldn't have mattered if that (false) accusation had been made because I can simply reiterate my ACTUAL views to set the record straight. I can say point-blank no I don't think "x" i think "y".

 

[Syed]

basically fear PLUS empathy, justice, truthfulness, fairness, OVER ALL fear of god and cops

Or none of the above. People "behave" because Man is a social animal, and the survival of the species throughout the millenia depended upon interaction and cooperation. It's not that we behave because "god" is watching,

so what the reason human behave bad like killing, stealing, lying, raping ?

 

[Lion IRC]

Unmarked police cars are effectively invisible.
They act as a deterrent BECAUSE we know they can see us but we can't see them so we had better obey the law. And like unmarked police cars, God exists.

Are you suggesting that the reason I paid for the dollar's worth of food at the gas station was because there might have been an unmarked police car parked outside?

No.

See Bilby?
That's how easy it is to fix someones mistaken understanding of what you do or do not think.

No drivel about quote-mining or taking people out of context.
Just let your yes be yes and your no be no.

So.
Atheos, do you or do you NOT think visible police presence is a deterrent?
And have I put any words in your mouth with which you disagree.
Because you can correct the record quite easily.

Show me where I used the quote function to misrepresent you.

 

[bilby]

So you can only detect quote mining when it is done to you, and not when you do it to others?

Interesting.

I wish I could say 'surprising'; but we will have to settle for ... interesting.

Nobody quote-mined me.
Abaddon didn't accuse me of thinking that everyone must kill their firstborn.
And it wouldn't have mattered if that (false) accusation had been made because I can simply reiterate my ACTUAL views to set the record straight. I can say point-blank no I don't think "x" i think "y".

You do know that this is a discussion board, right? That people can scroll up a few posts and see for themselves exactly what was said?

To make an outright false claim about what was said in this situation is utterly stupid and futile.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?9924-Why-do-human-do-good-and-avoid-bad&p=359973&viewfull=1#post359973

Either you are a compulsive liar, or you haven't a clue what the fuck you are on about.

I'm in two minds as to which is more plausible.

 

[abaddon]

1. I think that Atheos thinks visible law enforcement acts as a deterrent.
2. I agree that visible law enforcement DOES act as a deterrent.
3. I quote the section of Atheos' post which I think shows that we agree.

...therefore Lion IRC is obviously quote-mining to prove that Atheos thinks WHAT?

That Atheos thinks that your argument and his are in agreement. Taking a piece of an argument out of context to make the two contradictory points appear to agree is the quote-mining that you did. Don't evade and say you found a single point within the disagreement to agree with. Anyone could do the same with your posts or the Bible, find a juicy tidbit to make a point of and thus miss the overall point. Which has been illustrated for you but you still can't figure it out.

Just answer that please! Tell me what views you think I'm trying to attribute to someone that they DONT actually believe.

Ok, just in case more detail helps you... (And, yes, I and others can scroll back up).

Contrast this

People who say they can be good without God watching forget that we live in a world of unmarked police cars, undercover cops, CCTV's on every street corner, lie detector tests, radar speed cameras....

#visible_police_presence

where you say sneaky policing tactics illustrates how people cannot be good without being watched over…

Against this

... Unmarked police cars ... shows the opposite of the point that is being attempted [by Lion IRC]....

where Atheos says he disagrees with you and spells out why.

You reacted with this

Atheos agrees...

...The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent.

But where’s the agreement between the arguments? Keep the whole gist of the entire argument in mind or you miss the context. Remember you're on about sneaky tactics are needed and he's saying they're not so effective (as an analogy to an invisible god). To take a bit of it and say "We agree" is quote-mining.

And as a few people have wondered, what is the point in the “police therefore people are bad” argument? Spell out how “people need watching over” leads to the existence of God, or the need for belief. What difference has theist belief made regarding how naughty people are? Do you think the speeders getting busted by unmarked cars and undercover cops and the rest were atheists? If any, or probably most, were theists, then what good did their belief in God do?

 

[Syed]

try eliminating cops and god in society

and see crime will increase or decrease

Atheistic societies are statistically the most peaceful on the planet.

what the reason?

- - - Updated - - -

...without law enforcement human will behave like animals

As far as I know humans developed civilised society long before policemen were introduced.

.

why

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Or none of the above. People "behave" because Man is a social animal, and the survival of the species throughout the millenia depended upon interaction and cooperation. It's not that we behave because "god" is watching,

so what the reason human behave bad like killing, stealing, lying, raping ?

Humans, in general, don't behave that way. Some humans, a small minority, do. Why? because nobody's perfect, and some are more imperfect than others.

On the other hand ...

If people believe in a god, and they believe that god is watching them and doesn't want them to behave that way ... why do so many believers kill, steal, lie, rape?

I look forward to your inevitable "no true Scotsman" response to this question.

 

[Syed]

so what the reason human behave bad like killing, stealing, lying, raping ?

Humans, in general, don't behave that way. Some humans, a small minority, do. Why? because nobody's perfect, and some are more imperfect than others.

On the other hand ...

If people believe in a god, and they believe that god is watching them and doesn't want them to behave that way ... why do so many believers kill, steal, lie, rape?

I look forward to your inevitable "no true Scotsman" response to this question.

i will start a new thread title " are human genetically good?

 

[abaddon]

i will start a new thread title " do gene makes us good?

You know, ultimately my beef with Lion IRC wasn't his misrepresentation so much as his dodge. It's characteristic of theists, they're always dodging.

So, Syed, why don't you answer questions rather than asking more silly questions? Especially considering you're not actually curious about reality but just looking for ways to assert your conclusion about God.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

i will start a new thread title " are human genetically good?

Why? You've already got three threads going that you started, where you've failed to back up your claims on a similar theme. Starting another one would be simply wasting your time as well as ours. And I can tell you my answer to that question here already: no. We're not "genetically good", whatever that means. We're social animals who behave within the mores of our species because it's advantageous to do so in an evolutionary sense.