Syed's Mega-Thread

[Atheos]

Oddly enough, there don't seem to be any. It's almost as if having strong religion in a country stopped it from becoming wealthy and successful. How can that be, if god is helping them? Surely the most devout countries should have the lowest rates of poverty and crime, and the most godless ones should have the highest. But we see the EXACT opposite trend - and at every level. The most devout nations, and the most devout sub-national entities (eg states, territories counties and cities) are the poorest and most crime-ridden, and the most prone to natural disasters like tornadoes. It's almost as if belief in gods made things worse, rather than better.

atheists were NOT founder of Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland but CHRISTIANS

soon they will collapse without morality

This is a laughable argument even by your standards, Syed. First, these areas have been populated since prehistoric times. It is true that (for example) Sweden became an independent named Kingdom during the Middle Ages, but big whoop. That was over 1000 years ago. Things can change a lot in a millennium. It is worth noting that many of these early "Christians" of which you speak were the originators of Norse Mythology. It is true that today a variant of Christianity is the largest religion represented in the country, but non-religious people represent the largest demographic of the country. And it might be noted that until 1996 Lutheran Christianity automatically counted all newborn Swedish children with at least one Lutheran parent as part of their membership, which means that their boasted numbers are considerably inflated by a large number of people who would fall into the "non-religious" category if asked.

Secondly, you equate religion with morality. This is absurd as well. Religion has nothing to do with morality. The relationship between the two exists only in your head.

Finally you leave us with a vague prophecy of their doom. How about you dig up some statistics that demonstrate this correlation you seem to believe exists between "morality" and "how long a nation survives?" This correlation also is a figment of your imagination. I'd think it would suck to be this wrong all the time but I'm guessing you have no clue just how wrong you are.

 

[funinspace]

Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland are rich country with small population

pick godless poor country with big population

Oddly enough, there don't seem to be any.

Sure there is: the PRC.

Beyond that there is Japan, which is the 10th largest country by population. Though it is certainly not poor (random stupid requirement by Syed), it is one of the least violent nations on earth. The Japanese, though they are nominally Shinto and Buddhist, they certainly don't believe in the domineering western offshoots of Yahweh with their hellish notions and such. Only 2-3% believe in any of the Yahweh offshoots.

Why do poor people need a big bad ass god, but wealthier peoples don't? Seems like about a stupid of god argument, as I've ever heard.

 

[funinspace]

Speak for yourself. I don't fear your God or any other.

If people are good only because they fear God, then why are so many god-fearing people in prison?

People who say they can be good without God watching forget that we live in a world
of unmarked police cars, undercover cops, CCTV's on every street corner,
lie detector tests, radar speed cameras....

#visible_police_presence

LOL...Japan, with virtually no belief in a personal and vengeful god, has 1/13th the homicide rate. Japan has roughly 198 police for every 100,000 people, and the US has 266 police for every 100,000 people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers

It seems that the Japanese are hanging in there pretty good without a Sky Beast to fear...

 

[Atheos]

Also, while on the subject of Lion IRC's post about unmarked police cars and the like, what's the point? Unmarked police cars are for revenue generation, not for curbing the rate at which people violate traffic laws. If anything this shows the opposite of the point that is being attempted. People will drive blissfully down the interstate at 10-15 MPH above the posted speed limit with an unmarked police car swimming amongst them but will not do so if a clearly marked police car is present. The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent. The possibility that one might be somewhere in the vicinity is not.

Christianity is a laughable substitute as a deterrent for anti-social behavior. The very core message of Christianity is that it doesn't matter how you behave, it only matters how you think right before you die. As long as you win the lottery by coming to Jesus and asking him into your heart a nanosecond before you die you can be the most prolific child rapist/murderer that ever lived and get ushered right into paradise. But if you're just an average old Joe citizen who lives and lets live, pays his taxes, keeps his lawn mowed and is guilty only of the crime of skepticism, it's the gates of heck for your ass.

Be that as it may, this is all an  appeal to consequences fallacy anyway. Syed seems especially keen on producing as many of these as he can lately.

 

[Playball40]

So? What's your point?

Speak for yourself. I don't fear your God or any other.

If people are good only because they fear God, then why are so many god-fearing people in prison?

People who say they can be good without God watching forget that we live in a world
of unmarked police cars, undercover cops, CCTV's on every street corner,
lie detector tests, radar speed cameras....

#visible_police_presence

 

[Lion IRC]

See Atheos' interesting reply to the point I was making.

 

[Lion IRC]

Atheos agrees...

...The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Indeed - the only cops I fear are the ones who are uncivil. I've never needed the threat of cops to behave like a civilized person.

you dont fear getting traffic ticket ? cops makes you good car driver and citizen

fear of god makes human good too

god created heaven and hell for some reason



Why do human do good and avoid bad ?

1, fear of god

2, fear of cops, jail time, execution

3, empathy

4, fear of society

5, fear of family

6, fear of friends

fear of god is the MOST effective and easy to civilized human

atheist ONLY fear cops

I also fear these threads because I'm so fearful such witty OPs will crush my atheism and force me to worship Cthulhu.

- - - Updated - - -

Do cops fear god? Does god fear cops?
Without enough respect for empathy, justice, truthfulness and fairness, no cop or god is going to make anyone a good person, or even force them to behave like one.

not true, without all of that we can make even animals behave

without law enforcement human will behave like animals

Wait... I thought fear of god kept us in line.

 

[Lion IRC]

...If people are good only because they fear God, then why are so many god-fearing people in prison?

I think prison is a wake-up call to lots of people - making them more religious, repentant, rehabilitated.

But the argument here isn't so much about whether we can "be good" with or without God but whether there is any such thing as "good" if each human gets to decide for themselves what IS good. Biblical theists think that God places a moral compass in our hearts - that we are created in His likeness - and even the atheist intuits the existence of a quasi-transcendent moral law.

Atheists are among the many supporters of same-sex 'marriage' for example. When asked why we ought to do something "good" rather than "evil" even the atheist has to wonder if "good" is merely a matter of personal opinion.

Ask the atheist if there really is such a thing as inalienable human rights. (Primate rights, Mammalian rights, Reptilian rights, etc.) And if such rights really so exist - who gave them to us? Can they be taken away? Are they enforced by some Higher Power?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

...If people are good only because they fear God, then why are so many god-fearing people in prison?

I think prison is a wake-up call to lots of people - making them more religious, repentant, rehabilitated.

But the argument here isn't so much about whether we can "be good" with or without God but whether there is any such thing as "good" if each human gets to decide for themselves what IS good. Biblical theists think that God places a moral compass in our hearts - that we are created in His likeness - and even the atheist intuits the existence of a quasi-transcendent moral law.

Atheists are among the many supporters of same-sex 'marriage' for example. When asked why we ought to do something "good" rather than "evil" even the atheist has to wonder if "good" is merely a matter of personal opinion.

Ask the atheist if there really is such a thing as inalienable human rights. (Primate rights, Mammalian rights, Reptilian rights, etc.) And if such rights really so exist - who gave them to us? Can they be taken away? Are they enforced by some Higher Power?

Well, what makes God a better judge of what would qualify as good? If some guy's idea of an appropriate action is "You pissed me off, so I'm going to murder the eldest child of everybody who works for you in order to teach you a lesson", why would I take that guy's idea of what's good behavior over my own ideas?

Now, I understand that this doesn't answer your question, it's just that I don't understand why having God make the decisions would answer it either.

 

[abaddon]

But the argument here isn't so much about whether we can "be good" with or without God but whether there is any such thing as "good" if each human gets to decide for themselves what IS good.

Each human? Why reduce it down to individuals? That people are social animals and so tend on the whole to interpersonal cooperation is observed, not just offered as a mere tenet or belief. We can figure out “good” by observation. Do you like being jabbed in the eye? Is that at least part of the reason you don’t go around jabbing people’s eyes? Would that explain why everyone agrees that not jabbing eyes is good and jabbing eyes is bad?

Biblical theists think that God places a moral compass in our hearts - that we are created in His likeness - and even the atheist intuits the existence of a quasi-transcendent moral law.

Beyond the reduction down to bits and pieces, including the “each human” bits of a system, are emergent properties of complex systems. That’s not an intuition of anything wholly or partially transcendent of nature. It’s observed in nature including human society.

Atheists are among the many supporters of same-sex 'marriage' for example. When asked why we ought to do something "good" rather than "evil" even the atheist has to wonder if "good" is merely a matter of personal opinion.

We don’t each have to eat the same pizza but we do have to live with others, so what’s good on a pizza is a personal opinion but what’s good social behavior isn’t much the same.

Ask the atheist if there really is such a thing as inalienable human rights. (Primate rights, Mammalian rights, Reptilian rights, etc.) And if such rights really so exist - who gave them to us? Can they be taken away? Are they enforced by some Higher Power?

If such rights really exist they’re either nature-made or human-made. It doesn't need more to count as real. They can be violated by bullies and tyrants, and often that is done in the name of religion. There’s no indication that anything is enforced by a “higher power”, that's religious folk rationalizing behavior with a simplistic “God said”. It's easy, it relieves lazyminded people of expending calories on getting a fuller understanding, it's a convenient replacement for "just cuz" with the benefit of sounding almost like it means anything.

 

[bilby]

Oddly enough, there don't seem to be any. It's almost as if having strong religion in a country stopped it from becoming wealthy and successful. How can that be, if god is helping them? Surely the most devout countries should have the lowest rates of poverty and crime, and the most godless ones should have the highest. But we see the EXACT opposite trend - and at every level. The most devout nations, and the most devout sub-national entities (eg states, territories counties and cities) are the poorest and most crime-ridden, and the most prone to natural disasters like tornadoes. It's almost as if belief in gods made things worse, rather than better.

atheists were NOT founder of Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland but CHRISTIANS

soon they will collapse without morality

I'll wait.

Do you think I have time to put the kettle on? We could have a cup of tea while we are waiting.

 

[bilby]

Atheos agrees...

...The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent.

Ah, quote mining. That old staple of honest, God-fearing Christians everywhere, demonstrating how they are so scrupulously honest at all times in case their misrepresentation of others invokes god's wrath.

Odd, how it doesn't seem to bother you that everyone who is reading the thread can see that Atheos does NOT agree.

But Jesus loves a liar, so that's OK.

 

[bilby]

you dont fear getting traffic ticket ? cops makes you good car driver and citizen

fear of god makes human good too

god created heaven and hell for some reason



Why do human do good and avoid bad ?

1, fear of god

2, fear of cops, jail time, execution

3, empathy

4, fear of society

5, fear of family

6, fear of friends

fear of god is the MOST effective and easy to civilized human

atheist ONLY fear cops

I also fear these threads because I'm so fearful such witty OPs will crush my atheism and force me to worship Cthulhu.

Syed believes himself a wit. I think he is half right.

 

[Lion IRC]

Atheos agrees...

Ah, quote mining. That old staple of honest, God-fearing Christians everywhere, demonstrating how they are so scrupulously honest at all times in case their misrepresentation of others invokes god's wrath.

Odd, how it doesn't seem to bother you that everyone who is reading the thread can see that Atheos does NOT agree.

But Jesus loves a liar, so that's OK.

WUT? Quote mining?
Are you saying Atheos doesn't agree with his/her/zir own statement?

 

[Lion IRC]

Atheos agrees...

...The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent.

Read it pal!

Enforcement IS a deterrent!

 

[Bronzeage]

Atheos agrees...

Read it pal!

Enforcement IS a deterrent!

If enforcement is deterrent, why do we still have crime?

 

[rousseau]

Speak for yourself. I don't fear your God or any other.

If people are good only because they fear God, then why are so many god-fearing people in prison?

try eliminating cops and god in society

and see crime will increase or decrease

Atheistic societies are statistically the most peaceful on the planet.

 

[bilby]

Ah, quote mining. That old staple of honest, God-fearing Christians everywhere, demonstrating how they are so scrupulously honest at all times in case their misrepresentation of others invokes god's wrath.

Odd, how it doesn't seem to bother you that everyone who is reading the thread can see that Atheos does NOT agree.

But Jesus loves a liar, so that's OK.

WUT? Quote mining?
Are you saying Atheos doesn't agree with his/her/zir own statement?

No, I am saying that Atheos doesn't agree with your misrepresentation of his position - as he himself explains very clearly in the post that you quote-mined.

Also, while on the subject of Lion IRC's post about unmarked police cars and the like, what's the point? Unmarked police cars are for revenue generation, not for curbing the rate at which people violate traffic laws. If anything this shows the opposite of the point that is being attempted. People will drive blissfully down the interstate at 10-15 MPH above the posted speed limit with an unmarked police car swimming amongst them but will not do so if a clearly marked police car is present. The REALITY that an enforcement official is watching is a deterrent. The possibility that one might be somewhere in the vicinity is not.

Christianity is a laughable substitute as a deterrent for anti-social behavior. The very core message of Christianity is that it doesn't matter how you behave, it only matters how you think right before you die. As long as you win the lottery by coming to Jesus and asking him into your heart a nanosecond before you die you can be the most prolific child rapist/murderer that ever lived and get ushered right into paradise. But if you're just an average old Joe citizen who lives and lets live, pays his taxes, keeps his lawn mowed and is guilty only of the crime of skepticism, it's the gates of heck for your ass.

Be that as it may, this is all an  appeal to consequences fallacy anyway. Syed seems especially keen on producing as many of these as he can lately.

If you really, seriously, thought that Atheos was AGREEING with you (even though he explicitly said "If anything this shows the opposite of the point that is being attempted"), then why did you crop out all but eleven words of his post?

Hint: If you can only appear clever by misrepresenting others, then you are not, in fact, being clever - no matter how much you might imagine that you are. Perhaps you think that your imaginary friend thinks that your lies on his behalf are cute - although I seem to recall that your handbook says something about not bearing false witness, which might suggest that you are wrong about that.

 

[abaddon]

Atheos agrees...

Read it pal!

Enforcement IS a deterrent!

You go back and read that post again. It's one of the most insightful ones in the thread.

No one has argued that a police presence isn’t sometimes a deterrent. If you see the police officer, you slow down from 40mph to the 35mph speed limit. You don’t slip the item off the shelf and into your pocket while people… while people… are seen to be watching.

People can be kinda shitty sometimes, and they also often behave in an “out of sight, out of mind” way as well. So how does an invisible God fit in? Especially if he’s an invisible forgiver?

Why don’t you answer the problem Atheos raised for the “God as deterrent” stance rather than sleaze around it?