Syed's Mega-Thread

[Elixir]

Syed thinks this is evidence. Funny stuff.

Religion rots the brain.

 

[Gila Guerilla]

i found this one but other one was very clear

Quran
Verily, We created man from a drop of mingled sperm so that We may test him; and therefore We made him hearing and seeing. We have indeed showed him the way, now he be grateful or ungrateful. (76:3)

does god already knew that i would be ungrateful before i was born?

Quran
Verily, We shall put you to test with some fear, and hunger, and with some loss of wealth, lives, and offspring. And (O Muhammad) convey good tidings to those who are patient, who say, when inflicted by hardship, "Verily we are of God and verily to Him shall we return;" upon them is the blessings of Allah and His mercy. (2:155)

does your teacher already know the result of your math test before you gave math test?

in other verse god clearly say he does not know

None of that suggests that Allah chooses not to know the outcome of human trials. In relation to the narrative, Allah can know the outcome (being omniscient) but the trial is played out for the benefit of the person experiencing the challenges before them. Just like a parent lets their children compete in a race where the winners and losers of the race are already known to them but its all in the playing of the game.

An earthly teacher is not omniscient, but knowing his pupils strengths and weaknesses may have a reasonable idea of how each pupil is likely to perform in a test. The better he knows them, the more accurate is her/his assessment of their likely performance. His goal being to help his students overcome their weaknesses and do better in exams.

why do you think omniscient want to take a test if he is already knew the result ?

You are getting the idea, Syed. Your concept of "God" does not make sense.

Keep that up, and you might stop believing, (or are you too intellectually dishonest to accept that your god doesn't make sense ???) Perhaps not, I hope not!

You are at odds with Islamic teaching, Syed. I posted a list of sources which say that the "God" of Muslims is fully omniscient, (ie. that their "God's" knowledge is full and perfect). What you are telling us, Syed, is ad hoc*. Surely, that is the first step to making up your own sect, especially of you begin a web site of your own, to spread your ideas.

Posted on Wiktionary

* ad hoc . . .

º For a particular purpose.

º Created on the spur of the moment; impromptu.

º (sciences) (of a hypothesis) Postulated solely to save a theory from being falsified, without making any new predictions.

º Special.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad_hoc

You told us outright that "God" cannot know in advance, anything which involves human "free will". But other Muslims claim that "God" knows who a person will marry. If that is supposedly true. then "God" knows something which is a "free will" choice.

{ BTW, I should interject, and say that I am not saying that humans have a libertarian free will, merely following the logic of Syed, who claims that we have }.

I have been reading more about Islam, and have found the following, taken from this web site: http://islamicpamphlets.com/

6. Belief in Divine Destiny . . .

Found in this pamphlet: http://islamicpamphlets.com/about-islam-brief-introduction/
(click the link to download it).

Allah knows everything from the past, the present, and anything that will occur in the future. He has power over all things – nothing occurs without His knowledge and permission.

Now that is quite clear. The pamphlet, (an Islamic educational tract), says that "God" knows everything, past, present and future.
The ad hoc aspect of your theology, Syed, seems to be your attempt to make "free will" possible, because foreknowledge would preclude "free will".
You obviously did not read what fast wrote

...

... If I must act, then I will act, but the inverse is untrue; moreover, although I will if I must, it's not so that I must if I will.

Knowledge is independent of truth. Knowing what I will do does not imply that I must do what you know I will. How so? Actuality implies possibility, but the inverse is not so.

An analysis of the JTB Theory of Knowledge does not support your contention. If you know what I will do, then there is still the possibility of mistake, for the implication of the theory is not that I must do as you know I will; rather, the limited implication is that I will do what you know I will. However, you're human, and as with all of humanity, there is the possibility of mistake, but even if you could (like God) not be mistaken and know what you do with the impossibility of mistake, nothing about your knowledge transforms contingent truths into necessary truths, for as I said earlier, truth is independent of knowledge.

If God knows I will kill someone, then I will someone, but it's not true that I must kill someone merely because it's impossible for Him to be mistaken. His knowledge (acknowledged as certainty) does not mean the contingent truth is a necessary truth. I have the real choice to not kill. God's great knowledge does not alter that. It simply means that He will know with certainty what choices I will willingly make. My free will is not compromised by His knowledge of my choices.

In that analysis, omniscience does not preclude "free will", but I don't necessarily agree with fast in any case, furthermore it is the nature of the conditions before "creation" that I have been trying to get at.
What you have presented on that, (conditions before "creation"), also makes no sense to me, neither does it agree with Islamic teachings, nor with science.

. . . MY understanding of islam is little different from other muslims . . .

So you are making things up ad hoc, and not getting your understandings from "God", the word of "God" or other Muslims.
Also check out . . .

Pure and Clear Concept of God . . .
Found in this pamphlet: http://islamicpamphlets.com/why-islam-the-beauty-and-benefits-of-islam/
(click the link to download it).
. . .
God is the All-Powerful:God has full authority and power over all things.

• Obedience to God does not increase His Power, nor does disobedience decrease His power . . .

. . .
God is Perfect:

• God does not have any human limitations, such as resting on the seventh day after He created the universe.
• God always maintains attributes of perfection and does not do anything to compromise this perfection

But your conception of "God" is of imperfection, Syed, you claim that "God" does NOT know all things past, present and future.

1. Beginning of the Universe . . .
Found in this pamphlet: http://islamicpamphlets.com/purpose-of-life/
(click the link to download it).

We can also reason that this “being” is timeless and spaceless, because time, space and matter began at the creation of the universe.

But your concept of "God" is that "he" is time limited . . . "he" has to wait for acts of "free will" to occur, before "he" has knowledge of them. However, it makes no sense for a timeless being to have to wait for anything.

There are quite a few other reasons why your concept of "God" does not make sense. I can save them for another time.

 

[DBT]

Your perception that God is saying to you that you shouldn't kill may the manipulation/causal factor that determines what you do. Information that effects how you think, consequently, how you behave.....regardless of whether an actual god exists, or not.

here is some evidence that god chose not to know

Quran

We decreed your former qiblah ( TEMPLE MOUNT JERUSALEM) only in order that We might know the Prophet's true adherents and those who were to disown him. It was indeed a hard test, but not for those whom Allah guided. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:143 )

How does that suggest that Allah chooses to forget outcomes? You need to explain your reasoning.

 

[Syed]

muslims believe in jesus and his god

You have a very annoying habit of clipping out the bits that are problematic for you and only partially responding to what remains. Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to get to God?

My challenge was not whether or not Muslims accepted that Jesus was a prophet (on par with other prophets that went before). I already knew that the "Son of Mary" is described in the Koran as such.

But the christian bible does not stop there. It plainly declares that Jesus is the "Only way" to achieve salvation (John 14:6). It makes plain that one must accept that Jesus is the one-of-a-kind, unique Son of God,

yes, jesus teaching is way to god but jesus never said he is son of god

 

[Syed]

here is some evidence that god chose not to know

Quran

We decreed your former qiblah ( TEMPLE MOUNT JERUSALEM) only in order that We might know the Prophet's true adherents and those who were to disown him. It was indeed a hard test, but not for those whom Allah guided. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:143 )

How does that suggest that Allah chooses to forget outcomes? You need to explain your reasoning.

no, he does not say that

read again
Quran

We decreed your former qiblah ( TEMPLE MOUNT JERUSALEM) only in order that We might know the Prophet's true adherents and those who were to disown him. It was indeed a hard test, but not for those whom Allah guided. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:143 )

 

[Syed]

Gila Guerilla
You are getting the idea, Syed. Your concept of "God" does not make sense.

i believe my understanding of god is correct to ME and i have NO problem how other people understand god, as long they believe in god, good enough for me

Found in this pamphlet: http://islamicpamphlets.com/about-is...-introduction/
(click the link to download it).

Allah knows everything from the past, the present, and anything that will occur in the future. He has power over all things – nothing occurs without His knowledge and permission

this is TRUE its in own context

in islam a person goes to heaven or hell by their OWN choice NOT by god' predestination

But your concept of "God" is that "he" is time limited . . . "he" has to wait for acts of "free will" to occur, before "he" has knowledge of them. However, it makes no sense for a timeless being to have to wait for anything.

There are quite a few other reasons why your concept of "God" does not make sense. I can save them for another time.

which concept of god make sense to you that he knows who go to hell and who dont?

 

[Atheos]

You have a very annoying habit of clipping out the bits that are problematic for you and only partially responding to what remains. Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to get to God?

My challenge was not whether or not Muslims accepted that Jesus was a prophet (on par with other prophets that went before). I already knew that the "Son of Mary" is described in the Koran as such.

But the christian bible does not stop there. It plainly declares that Jesus is the "Only way" to achieve salvation (John 14:6). It makes plain that one must accept that Jesus is the one-of-a-kind, unique Son of God,

yes, jesus teaching is way to god but jesus never said he is son of god

Case in point.

 

[DBT]

in islam a person goes to heaven or hell by their OWN choice NOT by god' predestination

That's where your belief goes wrong, if god has perfect knowledge of the future - which you agreed (but also disagree), then that perfectly known future cannot be deviated from, all must go down the known path and nobody can deviate from it....hence your god knows who will fail long before they were even born.

 

[Syed]

in islam a person goes to heaven or hell by their OWN choice NOT by god' predestination

That's where your belief goes wrong, if god has perfect knowledge of the future - which you agreed (but also disagree), then that perfectly known future cannot be deviated from, all must go down the known path and nobody can deviate from it....hence your god knows who will fail long before they were even born.

you are an atheist by choice, god did not made you an atheist agree?

 

[fast]

I meant to say, "truth is independent of knowledge." My bad.

If I ride a snowmobile up a hill, the truth about the dangers awaiting me atop the hill remains even when my knowledge of the dangers are lacking. Another example, I kicked a tree with a nail, but not knowing there was a nail in no way altered the truth about the presence of the fact that there was a nail.

 

[DBT]

That's where your belief goes wrong, if god has perfect knowledge of the future - which you agreed (but also disagree), then that perfectly known future cannot be deviated from, all must go down the known path and nobody can deviate from it....hence your god knows who will fail long before they were even born.

you are an atheist by choice,

No, I am not. I don't see that there is sufficient evidence to form a conviction, evidence that would form the basis of a conviction in the existence of a God or gods.

Can you now choose not to believe what you now believe? Can you choose to stop believing in the authority of the quran and the reality of Allah?

god did not made you an atheist agree?

The absence of evidence did that. As can the presence of evidence change my position.

 

[Syed]

you are an atheist by choice,

No, I am not. I don't see that there is sufficient evidence to form a conviction, evidence that would form the basis of a conviction in the existence of a God or gods.

Can you now choose not to believe what you now believe? Can you choose to stop believing in the authority of the quran and the reality of Allah?

god did not made you an atheist agree?

The absence of evidence did that. As can the presence of evidence change my position.

if there is no evidence why do you think we believe in god?

 

[Keith&Co.]

if there is no evidence why do you think we believe in god?

Mostly because we were trained to do so before we learned any sort of critical skills. And we maintain, defend our belief for emotional reasons.
Or we shifted to a belief for emotional reasons.
Or we're gullible.
Or we don't believe, but we'll be kicked out of community if we admit that, so we try not to.

 

[Syed]

if there is no evidence why do you think we believe in god?

Mostly because we were trained to do so before we learned any sort of critical skills. And we maintain, defend our belief for emotional reasons.
Or we shifted to a belief for emotional reasons.
Or we're gullible.
Or we don't believe, but we'll be kicked out of community if we admit that, so we try not to.

so you all atheists think WE dont really believe in god ?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Mostly because we were trained to do so before we learned any sort of critical skills. And we maintain, defend our belief for emotional reasons.
Or we shifted to a belief for emotional reasons.
Or we're gullible.
Or we don't believe, but we'll be kicked out of community if we admit that, so we try not to.

so you all atheists think WE dont really believe in god ?

One.

Just one single fucking part of my personal, singular response suggests that some theists may not actually believe.

And not only is that the only part you reply to, you accuse me of speaking for all atheists, and accusing all theists of that.

You highlight the parts where I suggest that maybe the belief is not based on evidence, but ignore those parts.

Or refuse to understand them.

Or cannot.

So, no, syed, that's not what all us atheists think. Try again.

 

[DBT]

No, I am not. I don't see that there is sufficient evidence to form a conviction, evidence that would form the basis of a conviction in the existence of a God or gods.

Can you now choose not to believe what you now believe? Can you choose to stop believing in the authority of the quran and the reality of Allah?

god did not made you an atheist agree?

The absence of evidence did that. As can the presence of evidence change my position.

if there is no evidence why do you think we believe in god?

Desire. Fear. Social conditioning. Cultural identity.... amongst a host of reasons.

 

[Lion IRC]

I thought those reasons were the ones atheists use for their wishful thinking - that God doesn't exist. If someone fears there is no afterlife why can't someone else fear that there IS an afterlife?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

so you all atheists think WE dont really believe in god ?

One.

Just one single fucking part of my personal, singular response suggests that some theists may not actually believe.

And not only is that the only part you reply to, you accuse me of speaking for all atheists, and accusing all theists of that.

You highlight the parts where I suggest that maybe the belief is not based on evidence, but ignore those parts.

Or refuse to understand them.

Or cannot.

So, no, syed, that's not what all us atheists think. Try again.

So this is the Navy's take on it then?

 

[Keith&Co.]

I thought those reasons were the ones atheists use for their wishful thinking - that God doesn't exist.

Even if that were true, and not just another attempt by you to mock atheists, it would not mean that no theist had such motivations to believe, or to pretend to believe.

If someone fears there is no afterlife

Exactly who 'fears' there is no afterlife?
Seriously, who are you talking about?

 

[Keith&Co.]

you accuse me of speaking for all atheists,

So this is the Navy's take on it then?

Yes, quite.
I'all and my shipmates all would provide a similar list for suggested reasons why someone would believe without evidence.
Well, the nuclear Navy, anyway.
I mean, the Submarine part of the nuclear Navy.
The retired sub qualified NN...