Syed's Mega-Thread

[James Brown]

Would you live your life differently if there was no after life?

 

[Lion IRC]

Yes.
That's the whole point of the billboard.

 

[Syed]

Gila Guerilla

I take it that what matters to you, Syed, is that people believe in a god - it doesn't have to be the god of Islam. Also it does not matter that what they believe should be true ~ believing is enough !!! You are saying that any concept is good enough, so long as a god is at its root. The fact that a particular concept of "God" may be impossible, illogical or unconvincing, does not matter ???

if a person worship a dog as god and good to other human thats good enough to go to heaven

that MY understanding of ISLAM

could i be wrong? yes

thats what i believe

Well it matters to me. If one is supposed to, (or expected to), believe in something that is impossible, illogical or unconvincing, well I for one, cannot do it.

i have no problem that you have a problem with that

1. "God" does have knowledge of future events including ones which involve human "free will", (which you previously denied);

i still denied

I agree with you, Syed, when you asked: {why would a "God" who already knew the outcome, set you a test? } What is your answer to your own question, Syed ???

i already told you that god does not know how one use their free will

what was there BEFORE the universe began, (in your belief system) ???

quran say it was smoke

If "God" created the universe, did "he" know what "he" was doing, in other words, does "his" omniscience extend back to BEFORE creation ???

yes, god knew will invent computer but dont know who will murder

What are the real and total limitations upon "God's" knowledge ???

human free will actions

================

let me give clear answer to you

if i murder today god does not know that i murder TODAY but two angels that god appointed for me to record my FREE WILL action
they recorded that TODAY i killed a person, god still dont know i killed

that just MY understanding of islam

god only know what is the real truth

 

[Keith&Co.]

if a person worship a dog as god and good to other human thats good enough to go to heaven

Well, it's good to know dyslexia isn't a sin...

 

[Gila Guerilla]

Although this post is quite long, it only poses one question, Syed. I request that you read it carefully, and let me know if any parts of it don not make sense to you. In that case, I will clarify.
To all readers, I have marked a couple of spots in this post with §
In connection with those, it might be informative to read my post titled LYING IN ISLAM
in a post after this one.

if a person worship a dog as god and good to other human thats good enough to go to heaven

that MY understanding of ISLAM

could i be wrong? yes

thats what i believe

So if a person does not worship any kind of god, but is good to other humans, is that NOT good enough for you, Syed ???
A person worshipping a dog, is not a person who is worshipping god. A dog has not created anything, has no special powers, and a brain less than most humans.§

Well it matters to me. If one is supposed to, (or expected to), believe in something that is impossible, illogical or unconvincing, well I for one, cannot do it.

i have no problem that you have a problem with that

Please note that I explained that what I am looking to do is find out whether your beliefs make sense - PERIOD . . .

I can assure you that all my questions are leading somewhere, and that somewhere is to find out whether or not "God", (as explained to me by you, and as in your belief system), makes sense to me, for others, and in general as a concept. But I am NOT going to make criticism of your belief or your concept of "God", until I have worked out exactly what that belief and concept are. I you are not happy for us to look at the matter of your god-belief in detail, then I am not going to want to be told that "God" did this and "God" does that, by you. That purpose will come to fruition, (I hope), as long as we keep on exchanging communications . . . Thanks, Syed.

Therefore, I am looking for things that you believe, which make NO SENSE, ie. they are impossible, illogical, self-contradictory, incoherent etc. So I am looking for things which any RATIONAL person would have to agree, do not make sense. If you are telling us that you are happy to agree with and believe things which fit into that category, (impossible, illogical, self-contradictory, incoherent etc. and which any RATIONAL person would have to agree, do not make sense), then you are wasting my time, and the time of anyone who reads what you write, and which fit into that category of not making sense to ANY rational person§.

I am also looking for conclusions and consequences which MUST logically follow, based on things which you tell us that you believe, Syed. Those conclusions and consequences, I intend to be only those which are conclusions and consequences, which every RATIONAL person would have to agree follow from the beliefs, statesmen etc, which you supply. Should you refuse to accept that these beliefs are impossible, illogical, self-contradictory, incoherent etc., or that the conclusions are impossible, illogical, self-contradictory, incoherent etc., then you will not be being rational. This does not mean that everything which you say fits into the categories I'm concentrating on, and if I make an error, and point out that something seems to NOT make sense, (or should not to any rational person), then please point that out to me, and explain why. Thanks, Syed.

1. "God" does have knowledge of future events including ones which involve human "free will", (which you previously denied);

i still denied

I will discuss in another post

I agree with you, Syed, when you asked: {why would a "God" who already knew the outcome, set you a test? } What is your answer to your own question, Syed ???

i already told you that god does not know how one use their free will

Yes you did, but I needed to be 100% sure that you are saying what you have now repeated, (thanks for being patient).

what was there BEFORE the universe began, (in your belief system) ???

quran say it was smoke

This needs further discussion, which I will cover in another post.

If "God" created the universe, did "he" know what "he" was doing, in other words, does "his" omniscience extend back to BEFORE creation ???

yes, god knew will invent computer but dont know who will murder

What are the real and total limitations upon "God's" knowledge ???

human free will actions
================
let me give clear answer to you
if i murder today god does not know that i murder TODAY but two angels that god appointed for me to record my FREE WILL action
they recorded that TODAY i killed a person, god still dont know i killed
that just MY understanding of islam
god only know what is the real truth

You are acknowledging that you do not agree with major parts of Islamic teaching and understanding. The conclusion I draw is that your committing murder is not the real truth, (ie. real truth about the future).
Again, I will discuss this in a later post.

 

[Gila Guerilla]

LYING IN ISLAM

Originally Posted by Syed

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Originally Posted by Syed

i dont say which i dont believe

I strongly doubt anyone cares what you "believe".

this is for fun bro

If this is all for fun, then I am wasting my time. I take this seriously, and don't do this posting for fun.


Don't tell me your using muruna, (Muslims striving to advance Islam, can deviate from their Islamic laws in order to cause non-Muslims to lower their guard and place their trust in their Muslim counterpart). The best approach in telling us what is true, is by showing evidence that we can all observe, and agree upon, and not by words which can be lies, (or maybe not lies). To say: 'i dont say which i dont believe', may well be a lie. And the throw-away line: ' this is for fun bro.', is very worrying to me.

On using muruna, all readers, please check out: FOUR ARABIC WORDS EVERY INFIDEL MUST KNOW in a future post.

 

[Syed]

i am looking forward to read your next post

btw

what is lying in islam ?

i am lying to you?

 

[Gila Guerilla]

FOUR ARABIC WORDS EVERY INFIDEL MUST KNOW

Extracted from: http://www.hotheads.com.au/d-islam-four-arabic-words.pdf
(click link to download). Also refer to http://1389blog.com/2013/06/23/four-arabic-words-every-infidel-must-know

In 539 BC, King Belshazzar of Babylon saw a dismembered hand- written four prophetic words on the wall. This "handwriting on the wall" was finally interpreted by the prophet Daniel as predicting the fall of the kingdom. He was right. Babylon fell to the Medes - Persians that very night. Like the “handwriting on the wall” that Prophet Daniel had interpreted, there are four Arabic words, which could lead to submission of the entire world to Islam, if non - Muslims do not fully understand their meaning and implications. Those words are taqiyya, tawriya, kitman and muruna. Each of these words describes a different style of deception used by Muslims when discussing Islam or their activities as Muslims. Mohammed famously said, “War is deceit.” (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, Nr.268 ). The Koran boasts that Allah is the “master of all scheming” (Koran 13:42) and that he is “profound in his machinations” (Koran 8:30). Western civilizations are not accustomed to dealing with people, who have developed deception into an art form. Knowledge is power, and the best way to combat the Islamist agenda is to say, “We are used to your lying. Knock it off!”

TAQIYYA

Taqiyya is defined as dissimulation about one’s Muslim identity. It comes from the verse in the Koran that says, “Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does has nothing to hope for from Allah - except in self - defence (illaan tattaqoo minhum tuqatan (Koran 3:28). This “self - defence ” justifies dissimulation. Islamic Sharia Law provides, “When it is possible to achieve an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible, and lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory.”

Reliance of the Traveller Section r8.2 PERMISSIBLE LYING. T he Prophet said: "He who settles disagreements between people to bring about good or says something commendable is not a liar"). Examples include lying to protect Islam or a Muslim.

TAWRIYA

Tawriya is defined as concealing, and it could be called “creative l ying” or where appropriate "lying under oath". It is OK to break the intent of the oath, as long as you don’t break the letter of the oath ). This includes the expression "in sha' Allah" ("If Allah will"), before finishing the oath, then the oath is not broken in any event if he thereby intends to provide for exceptions.

How does this work? Suppose someone protests that Surah 1 of the Koran demeans Christians and Jews, because it is a supplication Muslims make to Allah seventeen times a day to keep them from the path of “those with whom God is angry” and “those who have lost their way”. A Muslim might respond, “Surah 1 never mentions Jews or Christians.” He is practicing tawriya, because while Surah 1 does not mention Jews and Christians by name, but he knows full - well that the words “those” refer to Jews and Christians.

Another example would be when a Muslim responds to your greeting of “Merry Christmas!” He might say, “I wish you the best.” In your mind, you think he has returned a Christmas greeting. In actuality, he has expressed his wish for you to convert to Islam; he wishes the best for you which, in his view, is becoming a Muslim.

KITMAN

Kitman is characterised by someone telling only part of the truth. The most common example of this is when a Muslim says that jihad really refers to an internal, spiritual struggle. He is not telling “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”, as witnesses are sworn to do in U S courts. Often, kitman results in a gross distortion of the truth. In the example given, the Koran uses jihad and its derivatives 59 times. Of those, only 16 (27%) could be considered “internal" with no object as the target of the struggle based on the context of the surah.

Another common form of kitman is to quote only the few peaceful passages from the Koran, knowing full - well that that passage was later abrogated by a more militant, contradictory verse.

“Are they seeking a religion other than Allah’s, when every soul in the heavens and earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?” (Koran 3:83)

Another example: “Permission to take up arms is hereby given to those who are attacked, because they have been wronged.” (Koran 22:39)

“When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” (Koran 9:5)

And another example: „Anyone who kills a human being... it shall be as though he has killed all mankind. ...If anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he has saved the lives of all mankind...“ (Koran 5:32)“

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah... that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; ” (Koran 5:33)

MURUNA

Muruna means using “flexibility” to blend in with the enemy or the surroundings. The justification for this kind of deception is a somewhat bizarre interpretation of Koran 2:106, which says, “If we abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, w e will replace it by a better one or similar.”

Thus, Muslims may forget some of the commands in the Koran, as long as they are pursuing a better command. Muslims striving to advance Islam, therefore, can deviate from their Islamic laws in order to cause non - Muslims to lower their guard and place their trust in their Muslim counterpart.

At times, Muslims practice muruna in the same way a chameleon changes colo u rs to avoid detection. Muslims will sometimes shave off their beards, wear western clothing, or even drink alcohol to blend in with non - Muslims.

Nothing is more valuable these days to the Islamists than a blue - eyed Caucasian Muslim willing to engage in terrorism.

Another common way of using muruna is for a Muslim to marry a non - Muslim or to behave like a non - Muslim so their true agenda will not b e suspected.

The 9/11 hijackers visited strip clubs and bars during their off - times while taking classes in the U.S. to fly airplanes into the World Trade Cent r e , the Pentagon and the White House. Many Americans believe Hillary Clinton’s aide, Huma Abedin , married Jewish Congressman Anthony Weiner at least in part to burnish her security credentials so she could infiltrate the highest levels of the Administration.

Another example of playing muruna to perfection is Mosab Hassan Yousef, “ The Son of Hamas ” , the son of a jailed Hamas terrorist leader and MP, Sheikh Hassan Yousef, the most popular figure in that extremist Islamic organisation .

Mosab, as a young man, assisted his father for years in his political activities. He converted to Christianity and operated under cover in the service of Israel's intelligence agency for a decade. Yousef reveals this information in his book, ‘Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Intrigue, and Unthinkable Choices’. Mosab howe ver, did not convert to what the West would recognize as Christianity, but to a fiery, Palestinian brand of the faith that is vehemently anti - Israel. According to Mosab, his main goal in coming to the U S A is to infiltrate the main source of international support for Israel: the American church. From an interview with Al - Arabiya: "During my tours in universities and even churches, [I found] the real support for Israel stems from the church in the West..... We need to understand the difference between "revenge" and "resistance" and once the Palestinians do, we will have our victory against Israel."

Hopefully, this article will be a wake - up call to the unsuspecting infidels. Trust but verify - as was an old American strategy in dealing with potentially hostile parties - is the way to go in dealing with Islamists.

The problem is that IF Islam condones lying, THEN how can we infidels be sure that a Muslim is not lying, just because they say: "I am not lying", or how can we infidels be sure that a Muslim believes what they say they do, just because they say: "I do not say what I don't believe" ? The way around this problem is to only say things for which there is good and undeniable evidence. That way, it very well can't be a case of lying.

 

[Syed]

in islam a liar will inter hell fire



Gila Guerilla

your problem is i makes too much sense to you

 

[Gila Guerilla]

i am looking forward to read your next post

btw

what is lying in islam ?

i am lying to you?

I have now posted FOUR ARABIC WORDS EVERY INFIDEL MUST KNOW.

As I said in that post, if Islam condones lying, then how can we tell if a Muslim is lying?

I am not saying that you are lying, Syed, but what I said is how can we infidels tell?
When you say you are posting for fun, I don't see it as fun, nor some kind of a game, but as something serious.

I'm happy to accept that you do believe what you say you believe Syed, and to check that out for logic, etc. etc. etc.

Best then to stick to evidence and logical thinking, and on which all rational people can agree, and so lying is unlikely to be possible.
Those other promised posts will be forthcoming, I'm logging off now.

 

[Syed]

this is BEAUTIFUL verse in the quran


004:135 Khan
:
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.

004:135 Maulana
:
O you who believe, be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness for Allah, even though it be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives -- whether he be rich or poor, Allah has a better right over them both. So follow not (your) low desires, lest you deviate. And if you distort or turn away from (truth), surely Allah is ever Aware of what you do.

004:135 Pickthal
:
O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

004:135 Rashad
:
O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

004:135 Sarwar
:
Believers, be the supporters of justice and the testify to what you may have witnessed, for the sake of God, even against yourselves, parents, and relatives; whether it be against the rich or the poor. God must be given preference over them. Let not your desires cause you to commit injustice. If you deviate from the truth in your testimony, or decline to give your testimony at all, know that God is Well Aware of what you do.

004:135 Shakir
:
O you who believe! be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor, Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) low desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.

004:135 Sherali
:
O ye who believe ! be strict in observing justice and be witnesses for ALLAH, even though it be against yourselves or against your parents or kindred. Whether he, against whom witness is borne, be rich or poor, ALLAH is more regardful of them both than you are. Therefore follow not your low desires that you may be able to act equitably. And if you hide the truth or evade it, then know that ALLAH is Well-Aware of what you do.

004:135 Yusufali
:
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.


THIS IS WHAT ISLAM TEACH

 

[Syed]

http://library.law.harvard.edu/justicequotes/explore-the-room/west/

 

[Syed]

Gila Guerilla
So if a person does not worship any kind of god, but is good to other humans, is that NOT good enough for you, Syed ???

in god's prospective that human CAN NOT be civilized without god's guidance and his WARNING of hell

A person worshipping a dog, is not a person who is worshipping god. A dog has not created anything, has no special powers, and a brain less than most humans.

in human history human worship all kind of animals. hindus worship all kinds of animals. i am doing TAQIYYA ?

 

[bilby]

...Exactly who 'fears' there is no afterlife?
Seriously, who are you talking about?

I thought the trope was that people who fear that there is no afterlife invent an imaginary one as a palliative.

What you 'thought' rarely seems to bear much resemblance to what actually is.

Perhaps you should try observing first, and then thinking about your observations? You would be wrong less often.

 

[bilby]

Then you have the people who say the supposed absence of the afterlife is a good thing.
...stop worrying and enjoy yourself. Live like there's no tomorrow.

View attachment 9967

The absence of an afterlife is a fact; whether or not it is good is irrelevant.

Wasting your life worrying about something nonexistent is bad; whether or not the existence of that imagined thing would be good, bad or indifferent.

If I won a million bucks on the lottery, that would be good. That doesn't mean it's a good idea for me to devote my life to the lotto, or to waste my time and money striving to win it - and winning the lottery is actually possible (albeit highly improbable); and afterlife is absolutely impossible, so it makes even less sense to put ones life on hold seeking to influence it than it does to go without dinner so you can afford another lottery ticket.

 

[Lion IRC]

Fundy atheists.
LOL

 

[Lion IRC]

If I said the exact opposite I'd get done for preaching

 

[bilby]

If I said the exact opposite I'd get done for preaching

It's not unusual. remarkable nor unfair for people to be sanctioned for saying things that are the exact opposite of true.

 

[James Brown]

There's far too much work to be done in this world to spend any time thinking about the next.

 

[Gila Guerilla]

if a person worship a dog as god and good to other human thats good enough to go to heaven
that MY understanding of ISLAM
could i be wrong? yes
thats what i believe

A person worshipping a dog, is not a person who is worshipping god. A dog has not created anything, has no special powers, and a brain less than most humans.

in human history human worship all kind of animals. hindus worship all kinds of animals. i am doing TAQIYYA ?

It would be disingenuous, if you say that it is good enough, or good enough for you. As to whether it is TAQIYYA, that is for Muslims to decide.
Even if it is just possibly TAQQIYA, then that leaves the rest of us in doubt as to real truth.
I'm happy that it is good enough for you, Syed, but it is not Islam :-

Monotheism - One God (Islam)

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3298/monotheism-one-god/

What is Islamic monotheism?

The religion of Islam is based on one core belief, that there is no god worthy of worship but Allah. When a person embraces Islam or a Muslim wants to renew or confirm his or her faith, they profess their belief that there is no god worthy of worship but Allah and that Muhammad is His final messenger. Ashadu an la ill laha il Allah wa Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasulullah, Saying these words, the Testimony of Faith, is the first of five pillars or foundations of the religion of Islam. Belief in God is the first of six pillars of faith.Muslims believe that there is only One God.

Apostasy (Islam)
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Does Islam allow freedom of religion or does it threaten the death penalty for apostasy?

Those who turn their back on Islam are to be executed. This is confirmed by the words and deeds of Muhammad. The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.

Note from the above Muslim teaching: The only freedom of belief in Islam is the freedom to become Muslim.

And to equate a dog with a god is idiotic.

The above says:
1. It's one god, and one god alone, and that god is Allah.
2. It's one religion, and that religion is Islam.

Nothing else is good enough, let alone good enough to go to heaven, (if such a thing as heaven exists).